 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 15:33
Chris and Morrie -
I'd like to take the build quality discussion into a different area. What do you think about intentional leaks? Tom Henson wrote a very long piece on the Klarinet list about how Wurlitzer deliberately introduces tiny leaks that create the "Wurlitzer sound." When Tom eliminated them, the instrument became unplayable. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2009/02/000380.txt. Tom wrote that Morrie Backun does similar things.
Similarly, bassoonists have written on the double reed list that when a bassoon is set up to seal perfectly, the sound is spoiled.
This is counter-intuitive to say the least. My Buffets play best when they're air-tight.
What's your take on it? If Morrie is following this, what can you tell us?
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2009-09-15 19:59)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-15 15:41
There is an old saying among software developers:
"It's not a bug...it's a FEATURE!!!" ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
JeffKen Shaw wrote:
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-15 15:53
I aim to get joints as airtight as possible as leaks will reduce the efficiency of an instrument.
Do Wurlitzer use porous leather pads to introduce leaks?
I can't see how a leaky instrument should play better than one that's completely airtight. In theory the most airtight instrument should respond and resonate far better than the one with leaks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-15 17:30
If Wurlitzer intentionally introduces leakages in the clarinet it would be interesting to know how exactly they manage to introduce the right amount of leakage and do it in a way that is capable of being reproduced by others (because surely they don't expect you to have to ship the instrument back to Wurlitzer every time you need to replace a pad).
Post Edited (2009-09-15 17:30)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 18:21
My Wurlitzers seal as tightly as my Buffets - air tight - and have so since I received delivery of them in 1994. Doesn't make sense to me - whether it's about Wurlitzer clarinets or about deliberately leaving leaks in any wind instrument.
The very few times that my Buffets have had a very slight response problem, I've been able to trace it to the wood of the tone hole changing, mechanism adjustment, etc. Once the ever-so-slight leak is fixed, full response returns. On edit: As does full resonance, which I desire in virtually all contexts.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2009-09-15 18:41)
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-09-15 19:03
All,
I am the one that originally posted about the small air leaks and the Wurlitzer clarinets
By the way, it is Morrie Backun, not Murray. Morrie as in Backun/Leblanc clarinets.
Wurlitzer uses a very soft pad, but with a synthetic material akin to Gore-Tex. I don't know if it has the same actual properties, but it certainly looks similar. The felt padding is also fairly soft compared to a French pad. The pads tend to have a roundness at the edges because of this.
The covering on their pads is difficult to work with because the slightest pressure on them with even your finger nail will crease them and then cause problems (big leaks), so they are hard to work with compared to what most of us are used to.
Regarding my posting on the small air leaks. It was during my long period of experimentation on my Wurlitzer Bb clarinet when I tried to repad it according to the traditional method that we are used to using. The pad material that I used was the standard combination of cork and skin.
The more I worked to get that bottle tight seal on my Wurlitzer, the more the sound seemed to change from what it was at the very beginning. In the end, the sound was comparable to what one would hear from a French clarinet. At the time, I said it sounded like my Buffet because that is what I was playing at the time.
It seemed to me that something had been lost. It was not until I sent the clarinet back to Wurlitzer and paid out of my pocket for them to overhaul my new clarinet that the sound was restored to what it was in the beginning. That was something that I was not expecting, but did suspect there was certainly more to how they set a clarinet up than just the padding.
I talked with Morrie Backun and a couple of others about this that had Wurlitzer clarinets and this is when I was told about the small air leaks that they build into their setup. Unless you understand how and why they do it, you probably will not be able to duplicate it exactly, just like I was not able to.
Wurlitzer is extremely close lipped about anything they do and will not discuss how they set a clarinet up, much less how they make them. For those that have never heard a Wurlitzer clarinet, they do have a unique sound and this is what attracts most all of the people to them in the first place. That's why I play on them, because of the way they sound.
So, I am unable to say how exactly they do this, but Morrie did say that he did exactly that on a French clarinet for one of his professional clients by drilling a microscopic hole under or near a post into the bore of the clarinet. It was basically invisible to the naked eye, but created enough of a leak that it accomplished what the customer wanted and did not affect the pad setup at all. Morrie, by the way, prefers a tight seal on his clarients.
Now, as to why very small air leaks can be used for the better. Every clarinet has it's own standing wave that is a result of the design of the bore and tone hole configuration. Different bore designs will change to some small degree the way that this vibration or energy is created and this can affect both the resistance and the sound character.
German bore clarinets sound the way they do mainly because the bottom most part of the lower body have a much smaller flare as it nears the bell. In addition, the bore on the bottom joint is parallel, up until the very slight flare. The flare on a French bore clarinet starts higher up and it bigger. This is the main reason why a German bore clarinet sounds the way it does.
Now consider that air leaks, in general, are a bad thing because the more air that leaks out, the more energy is taken away (bled off) from that standing wave. I suppose if the air leaks are bad enough they may also affect intonation as well.
There are several reasons that I have learned about how small air leaks can be used to your advantage.
1). Resistance - You can adjust the resistance of the air column by using small air leaks placed in strategic places. By adjusting the resistance, you can "balance" it better to your setup until you get that perfect "balance". Granted, the perfect balance will not mean the same thing to everyone. The perfect balance is what is best for you. So this is subjective in what you define as the perfect balance of resistance.
2). Energy - small air leaks can be used to adjust the wave energy of the standing air column. You can take some of the "edge" off of your sound by using small air leaks. This can be best described as a softening of the sound. Notice that I did not say less focused, but simply a softer sound. Obviously, this is impossible to explain completely in words, but I think you get the general idea of what is meant.
3). Resonance - This is another concept that is hard to describe, because it is something that the player feels perhaps more than the audience hears. I think in this sense, vibration, would be similar. When a Wurlitzer clarinet comes back from a factory overhaul, the clarinets just seems to have a lot of resonance to the sound. When you play it, one can feel the vibration in the keywork, your hands and your mouth. I can say that in my personal experience, a Wurlitzer clarinet, and other German bore Reform Boehm clarinets that I have played on, seem to have more resonance that French bore clarinets. This is possibly because of the bore differences mentioned earlier in the lower body. By adjusting the amount and location of the air leaks, you can dial in more or less resonance which will have some effect on the perceived sound.
In conclusion, I am not suggesting that one do a shoddy job of replacing their pads and they will discover something that makes their clarinet play better. Far from it.
What I am saying is this: if a clarinet is properly designed and manufactured, 50% of how it plays is in the setup. There are many ways to set a clarinet up, and most of us have a strong opinion of what they think is the "right" way. Well, there are many ways and some work better than others. Wurlitzer does not believe in pads with a bottle tight seal and you can expect that a clarinet that they setup will have some leakage that can be measured.
I hope this sheds a little more light on what it was I was trying to say when I originally posted about the small air leaks.
Tom Henson
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-15 19:44
I would think that would make it very difficult to have repaired or overhauled because any decent tech aims at making the clarinet leak proof. I've never heard of purposely building in a small leak. Just where would that leak be? Is it a trade secret? I have to go with what Greg Smith said. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-09-15 19:56
I have another thought that I can add to Greg's post on his Wurlitzer's that may help explain what I found.
As mentioned in my first post, Wurlitzer uses a very soft pad, at least since I have been working with them for the last several years. It may be possible that the pads on Greg's clarinet are entirely different.
The one thing that I found with these pads is that the more you play and use the clarinet, the deeper the seat on the pad becomes. Over an extended period of time (for me 2 years), the seats had become quite deep and thus, little by little, the seal got tighter and tighter. When I sent my Bb and A back for the first overhaul, they came back with the same pads, but the seat was very, very shallow. But, the sound was restored to what it was in the beginning.
I have also seen repair techs that use Valentino pads use the spring seating clamp to hold the pad down which, under the pressure of the spring, produces a very deep seat. No doubt, it will seal like a bottle top. I am not 100% convinced on Valentino pads for this simple reason, if you don't know what you are doing when working with them, you can create too deep a seat and then the pad wall will rub on the tone hole itself on the inside of the hole and cause drag.
Every summer, Wurlitzer sets aside 2 months where all of the main European orchestras send in their Wurlitzer clarinets for an overhaul. This is a very busy time for them because they have to turn them around in 2 weeks or less. Some of the players also makes trips to pick the instruments up and then work to fine tune the setup in person.
Here is something that you may be surprised to hear, the clarinets are sent in for overhaul once a year. Part of this, I was told, was because the orchestra themselves pay for the overhauls, but also because the clarinets must always play at a very high level. I believe this is unheard of here in the US, for the cost alone, if not for the time it would take. Wurlitzer strips all the cork and pads off of each clarinet they overhaul and replace everything from scratch. They repair or replace anything elses along the way they feel is not working as it should like a spring. This leads me to believe that whatever they do, it may be easier to duplicate starting over than to try and do an overhaul piece meal where only certain pads and corks are replaced.
Again, Wurlitzer uses a very soft pad in their setup and this may explain why they do the yearly overhauls. For those that play on Wurlitzer here in the US, I was told they never go more than 2 years, but they do play on them full time.
I am guessing in Greg's case that he does not play on them nearly as much as someone in Germany does, so perhaps his setup has lasted him longer because of this. I could not say for sure. I do know that others that play on Wurlitzer clarinets have confirmed that my experience is not unique.
I would also like to emphasize that we are talking about a minute amount of air leakage here that probably can only be measure with a vacuum machine. Simply holding one's hand over the end of a joint and sucking or blowing on it will not result in a meaningful test. That is how small the air leakage is that I am talking about.
Tom Henson
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-15 20:00
Gregory Smith wrote:
<<Once the ever-so-slight leak is fixed, full response returns. On edit: As does full resonance, which I desire in virtually all contexts.>>
I would expect that to happen. Just to clarify my remarks from the thread Tony posted a link to, a slight amount of leakiness will *flatten* resonance peaks. What that means is that the top of the peak will be lower (so the resonance is less strong), but at the same time the range of frequencies that the instrument will resonate around a given peak will increase.
So if your instrument is leak free, the resonance (and the response) will be stronger but the instrument will resonate over a smaller frequency range for a given fingering (which most of the time is exactly what you want).
A slightly leaky instrument is less resonant overall, but will resonate over a broader range of frequencies for any given fingering (which may improve the resonance of certain bad notes--like the 2+2 cross fingering for clarion Ab, which I experienced, for example--at the expense of the instrument's resonance in general).
And although I've never seen it written anywhere, I think that may also explain why it is easier to gliss on a clarinet if you slide your fingers off the holes gradually--sliding your fingers should, in theory, flatten out the instrument's resonance peaks so that the oral cavity has a greater influence on the pitch than it would if the instrument exhibited high, narrow resonance peaks. Certainly that's what the subjective experience of playing a long gliss is like (at least for me)--you slide your fingers off the holes until you can "catch" the pitch in your mouth and then your oral cavity does most of the rest. When you finally reach the note you are glissing to, the clarinet "locks onto" that note (which is what a high narrow resonance peak would cause the reed to do).
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 20:24
Mike wrote:
>>And although I've never seen it written anywhere, I think that may also explain why it is easier to gliss on a clarinet if you slide your fingers off the holes gradually--sliding your fingers should, in theory, flatten out the instrument's resonance peaks so that the oral cavity has a greater influence on the pitch than it would if the instrument exhibited high, narrow resonance peaks.>>
Yes, it's true. See:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2001/02/000780.txt
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-15 20:53
I worked on two Uebel basset horns a while back.
One of them (the newer one) I repadded with cork pads down to the RH3 B/F# 'sliver' key as it was leaking like a sieve as it had been repadded with porous leather pads that were too thick (and not closing at the front), and reinstalled and reseated the larger pads down to the low C. The top joint was airtight so it could hold a vacuum for 30 seconds or more.
The other (and older) basset horn still had most of the original porous white leather pads in it and I only did some regulation work on it to get it working. This one leaked like a sieve due to the porosity of the pads, but it played much easier than the newer one, had far more depth of tone to it and was generally a much nicer instrument to play in comparison.
I would have assumed the more airtight of the two would be the one that played better, but this wasn't the case. Maybe the newer one was never meant to be and the older one was lucky.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 23:51
<<I would also like to emphasize that we are talking about a minute amount of air leakage here that probably can only be measure with a vacuum machine. Simply holding one's hand over the end of a joint and sucking or blowing on it will not result in a meaningful test. That is how small the air leakage is that I am talking about.>>
If that's what this discussion has all been about then I've not even been on the same page. I test all of my clarinets using the standard suction method with a slightly damp stopper like the palm of my hand. (Yes, I probably have a lot fewer miles on my Wurlitzers than those who play them full time).
If there's a meter for such a thing, supposing that such a meter's reading would be more meaningful than the standard suction test, where does one acquire such a thing? What kind of differential in readings constitute "meaningful" - to or for whom?
Is it as subjective a thing as is being implied so far? It seems as if Tony has been talking about it as being simply another tool to reach an artistic end. I suppose I'd have to actually experience what Tony is talking about in order to understand that world of things.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-16 03:09
The device is the magnehelic. Jim Schmidt has a method for isolating each flute pad and testing them individually for seal. Surely there is a corresponding system for clarinet.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-16 05:15
Gregory Smith wrote:
<<Is it as subjective a thing as is being implied so far? It seems as if Tony has been talking about it as being simply another tool to reach an artistic end. I suppose I'd have to actually experience what Tony is talking about in order to understand that world of things.>>
What I experienced with the clarion Ab fingering was pretty dramatic--the difference between an ugly sound that was more grunt than note (after fixing the leak) and a covered-sounding but otherwise adequate Ab (before the leak was fixed). If you were standing there and listening, I am confident you would have noticed the difference.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-16 05:56
You can see the magnehelic for example here http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-m300.html
You can test for leaks in a way that is very sensitive without a machine too. Seal one end of the joint (preferably with a rubber or similar), and instead of sucking or blowing into the other end, "squirt" air from your mouth. This is similar to blowing up your cheeks and forcing air out with them, but without blowing up your cheeks. It feels like the squirting is done by the jaw muscles or maybe also the throat, I'm not sure. It's pretty intuitive. This is EXTREMELY sensitive to leaks and also the degree of the leak.
Re purposely playing a clarinet that doesn't seal completely, some clarinets just play great without a very tight seal. If they play exactly like the player wants/needs them to play, why change it? It's possible to say the clarinet might play even better after it seals tight, but a very good player can notice when it is not like it should be. One player mentioned to me that when he bought a new clarinet, he chose one of many, which played exactly how he wanted. It didn't hold a vaccum. He didn't change anything because he liked exactly how it played.
Persoanlly I like when a clarinet seals as much as possible. Some clarinets have unusual ways of not sealing completely (only to a very tiny degree, not like a significant leak). One time I fixed what turned out to be a TINY leak, impossible to see, from a random part of the clarinet body. I fixed it because the body didn't seal, not because of a problem in how it played (there wasn't). It played the same. On a different clarinet I remember fixing a pretty similar leak made a big improvement. These clarinets are relatively rare though, and by far most just seal tight when everything is made to seal like it should.
I experimented once by making a "clarinet" from a plastic tube with holes, and using a clarinet mouthpiece. I acceidently forgot I left tiny hole at some place and it felt very resistent, so I tried making some tiny holes in different places (mostly checking one at a time), gradually making them bigger, and checking the effect on lower notes.
Post Edited (2009-09-16 08:36)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-16 08:18
As someone who played the Wurlitzers NON stop for 6 years I would like to correct Mr. Henson's assurtions:
(1) Leather (well made and maintained) seals like ANY other pad
By maintain, one needs to apply leather treatment once a month
(2) As Ed and Greg allude, a leaky clarinet sounds like garbage
(3) The "Wurlitzer Sound" is produced by three things; the bore, the smaller mouthpiece/reed AND the whole approach to executing play (style, voicing, Teutonic mindset, etc.)
I would hasten to add that one does not need a machine to calibrate "seal." In fact the ONLY tech who did this on one of my horns during an emergency repair, was himself mainly a brass player, and he did a HORRIBLE job repairing an "A Key" problem.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-16 08:53
>> Leather (well made and maintained) seals like ANY other pad
>> By maintain, one needs to apply leather treatment once a month
Some already have a treatment (for example waterproof, etc.) from the pad company. Some also have a layer of plastic (or sometimes another material) between the felt and leather. My experience with excellent leather pads is they don't need any treatment (except when e.g. they become sticky, but this depends on many reasons that are not the pads, such as enviorment, etc.). I've seen and tried many leather pads from many models and companies, and found they are very different, even between different models from the same company.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-16 13:26
There is no doubt that the magnehelic is not the cornerstone of every great repair person. I haven't encountered many repair people who believe in the "intentional leak theory" but if it does occur at a certain measurable sealage then a magnehelic might be valuable in this pursuit. http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1h&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DACA_en-GBCA290CA291&q=flute+pad+meter http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jnopineoo
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-09-16 13:46)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-16 14:27
"So, I am unable to say how exactly they do this, but Morrie did say that he did exactly that on a French clarinet for one of his professional clients by drilling a microscopic hole under or near a post into the bore of the clarinet. It was basically invisible to the naked eye, but created enough of a leak that it accomplished what the customer wanted and did not affect the pad setup at all. Morrie, by the way, prefers a tight seal on his clarients."
If this hole is so small, where on the clarinet could this have been that would not fill with water or dust.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-16 14:31
Also, a tuba player I know mentioned once having tiny holes drilled into his instrument.
All good tuba players move their tuning slides constantly during performance. If you move the slide and the valve is closed, there will be a "pop" when it opens. The holes were just too allow the air in so as to avoid the "pop". He said it had no effect on the sound as it was literally so small that you would not notice it unless it was pointed out to you.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-16 15:06
When using the mag machine I aim to get the lowest possible reading on a joint when all pads are held closed and other holes are plugged with silicone bungs or blu-tack.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-16 17:45
Paul Aviles wrote:
<<(2) As Ed and Greg allude, a leaky clarinet sounds like garbage>>
But a clarinet with no leaks (i.e., no holes and a completely plugged-up bell) won't play at all! The clarinet is by necessity a leaky tube. The difference between garbage and beautiful tone is where the leaks occur and how large they are.
This really ought not to be that controversial a topic. If you bleed off more energy from the vibrating air column, you damp the vibrations, reduce the resonance, and increase the bandwidths of the resonance peaks. That's just the way it is--it's neither good nor bad. That doesn't mean everyone should go drill more holes in their instruments or use pads that don't seal adequately. It's just how the instrument works.
I think the only reason why this is so shocking to people is that we're using the word "leak," which carries a bad connotation. If you call something a "vent" rather than a "leak," suddenly it doesn't seem so awful--in fact, it sounds like some high-end feature everyone wants!
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-09-16 18:40
<<This really ought not to be that controversial a topic. If you bleed off more energy from the vibrating air column, you damp the vibrations, reduce the resonance...>>
I understand the science behind it and that certainly doesn't seem controversial to me. I don't think that a "leaky" clarinet sounds badly, it's just not my style if dampening the sound in some way and to some degree is the goal.
Perhaps, judging what I hear from some clarinetists, they are indeed after less resonance and a more dampened sound. It's just that for many reasons, my entire playing career has been engaged in trying to increase resonance and vibration, not dampen it. I suppose I've never fallen into that category of clarinetistry.
Or perhaps I've felt for whenever it's musically appropriate, I can accomplish that kind of shading or dampening via some other technique.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-16 19:02
I'm just hoping this topic doesn't open up a can of worms, and some makers or repairers who have built or overhauled clarinets with ill-seating pads will use it as an excuse!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-16 19:59
Gregory Smith wrote:
<<I understand the science behind it and that certainly doesn't seem controversial to me. I don't think that a "leaky" clarinet sounds badly, it's just not my style if dampening the sound in some way and to some degree is the goal.>>
Not my style, either--I favor responsiveness and resonance from my instruments, too.
Still, I think it's nice to know that the phenomenon exists, that there's a spectrum of possible setups that trade resonance/response for evenness/flexibility, and that where your setup lies on that spectrum is influenced by such things as what kind of pads you use.
Post Edited (2009-09-16 20:01)
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-09-16 20:08
MRN,
Thanks for putting it is a better light. Yes, I do agree that the word leak carries a negative connotation in most people's mind. I also agree that what I am talking about could be construed as venting, although I also use venting to describe the way Wurlitzer double vents their scale.
Paul, I never even mentioned leather pads in any of my discussion, so I'm not sure where this came from. I have seen older style leather pads and they do tend to have some porosity unless treated. The Selmer and Buffet clarinets that I played on while in the Army band in German in the 1970's had leather pads because that was the only pad used in Germany back then for professional clarinets. They can be quite good, but most of us at the time did not like them because they were too soft for our liking. Conversely, as a leather pad ages it gets very hard. Wurlitzer does not use them any more, so this can be ruled out as the source of this "venting" of air that I refer to.
I think what I would like to state again as a summary to what I have explained is that there are different ways to setup a clarinet and not everyone believes in the idea that they should seal like a bottle top with no air leakage what so ever. How much air leakage is acceptable would be entirely up to the individual and to the clarinet design itself I would think. I am simply saying that some technicians understand how and where this can be used to the benefit of the clarinet acoustics. Small differences, perhaps, but good technicians can fine tune things beyond what may be the acceptable standard of repair for most people. It's like how many shades of gray is there? Or any color for that matter. Good technicians know how to make subtle changes in the way an instrument sounds and plays. The idea that a clarinet will only play it's best when it has a perfect seal is just not true in my experience.
Wurlitzer clarinets have a German style bore and that alone may explain why Wurlitzer uses a different type of set up than on a French bore clarinet. I can also say that my own personal experience with trying to use the traditional method of padding my Wurlitzer clarinet did not result in any improvement to either the playability or the quality of the sound. In fact, it made it worse, in my opinion. I probably spent close to 150 hours trying to figure it out, but in the end gave up and realized that there was quite a bit more about this type of clarinet that I did not understand. What worked on my Buffet's did not work so well on my Wurlitzer, I learned something that day. I learned that I did not know as much as I thought I did, and that was the beginning of a long learning curve.
This is why I send my Wurlitzer clarinets back only to Wurlitzer for overhauls now, as I have learned my lesson. I do believe that there are other workshops in Europe that would also understand the acoustics of this type of instrument and do a great job working on it. Sadly, I have had people with these types of clarinets email me to say that they had sent them to a repair technician that specialized in French bore clarinets and what they got back was so far from what it used to be that they had to pay again to send them to someone who knows how to work on these instruments.
I am also aware that some people who own these types of clarinets use local repair technicians and are quite happy with the work. Power to you, but does this technician really understand the acoustical design of these clarinets as well as the workshop where they were made? If they do, then great. The late Jimmy Yan was the only one that I know of that Wurlitzer authorized him to perform warranty repairs on their clarinets and he was indeed considered a Master technician by all that worked with him. I do believe that if Hans Moennig was still alive that he also would have some ideas on how to setup this clarinets. Hans was an innovator. Don't even get me going on just how much his German woodwind training in acoustics affected the work he did on the Buffet clarinets.
I know I may get criticized for this, but it is also my belief that the way a clarinet plays, responds, and the quality of sound produced is 50% based on the physical design and quality of manufacture and 50% on the setup. I realize some people will not agree with me on this, but I would ask them how much work they have done on clarinets themselves to be in a position to know. How many Master technicians have they consulted with who surely do know.
One should never, ever, under estimate the benefit of a quality setup. Setup would include not only padding, but corks, keys, springs, key height, spring tension, and on and on and on. Some people call this "finishing" the clarinet. This is true for French clarinets just as it is true for German bore clarinets. The only difference is that most of the high end German makers do their own "finishing" before the clarinet ever leaves their workshop, not after. If you do not agree with me, ask someone like Morrie Backun how long it will take for him to get to working on your clarinets you want to send him, if he is even willing to do it. I use him as an example, but there are many other good technicians like him who have a waiting list for setup work.
In Germany, and other EU countries, repair technicians can go to a technical school just like we have here in the US, but once they get a technical degree, they usually apprentice somewhere in order to refine their trade and gain real world experience. The same is also true for those wanting to make the instruments. There are degrees for woodwind makers and different levels of degrees. When one becomes a Master, it is understood that they have already put in many hours, if not years, in the trade and have learned under some very talented mentors.
Just because we do not understand the how and the why of what some of these Master technicians do does not mean it is not valid or beneficial. It is all up to the individual to decide for themselves in the end.
Tom Henson
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-09-17 02:47
I think I can show those that may be interested why the venting that I have discussed works on a Wurlitzer and why it is more due to the keywork of the Reform Boehm system in general. This may explain why is works on this system and why it probably will not work so well on the standard Boehm keywork.
The German Reform Boehm that was designed by Fritz Wurlitzer incorporated extra keys for venting that are not present on a French Boehm key system. I am not sure if they were used mainly to improve intonation, but they do have some similarities with the German Oehler system in their concept if nothing else.
There are three keys in particular which I feel makes the Reform Boehm system superior. The first is the double keyed Bb register key. This extra key open when you play a throat Bb and makes the note very clear and full as well as perfectly in tune. It stays closed when playing any of the other throat notes. This allows for a smaller register tube hole to be used which mainly will affect how the clarion register plays and tunes. This system is much less a compromise than using a single tube.
Next is a side key on the lower body that is activated whenever you hold down the top ring key. If playing a B natural or F # the side key remains open, but closes the minute you hold down the top ring key. This makes the B natural / F# easier to tune due to the extra open hole on the side. It also affects the notes of the upper body simply because there are more open holes to vent the air.
Lastly, there is an extra key on the lower body that closes whenever you play lower than an F / C. This extra hole makes tuning the low G or clarion D easier and also affects all notes of the right hand when it is not closed.
My clarinet also has what is called the low E/F improvement which can be opened up to make the low E higher in pitch and thus eliminates any flatness that this note can have. These extra keys stay closed, so they do not affect intonation except on a couple of notes when opened.
Since all of the surrounding notes are affected by the extra holes, this not only affects the intonation, but the resonance of all of these notes as well. What I have found through trial and error is that one can alter the sound slightly by adjusting how tightly these extra keys seal.
I found it is not necessary, or to my liking, to have these extra keys seal really tight, because they only need to "float" over the tone hole facing with little pressure to achieve the desired effect. What I found is the tighter you seal these extra keys, the harder the sound becomes, the more edge. When they have less seal and float over the tone hole, the sound takes on more sonority and becomes softer and more even with the other notes around it. They notes blend with each other better for lack of a better way to describe it.
I have attached 3 pictures which show these extra keys, so many people will have never seen something like this before.
Tom Henson
Post Edited (2009-09-21 14:40)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-09-17 04:13
The low C/F extra hole and pad was present on my 1948 Noblet Bb clarinet but is rarely seen these days.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-17 04:32
Chris, it is often said the "suction" test that players do is irrelevant. Do you find a correlation between the magnehelic and the suction test. I would offer that an upper joint that holds suction for a long time would probably get a good reading on the magnehelic. Is it true?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-17 10:23
I've only ever tested joints with cork pads installed with both the suction test and mag machine (never tested a joint with wholly skin or leather pads on the mag machine), and a joint that holds a vacuum for a long time will also test well on the mag machine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-17 10:36
Tom,
Some of those features (and others from Oehlers) have been incorporated on Boehms - the improved throat Bb mechanism has been fitted to Leblanc and Selmer clarinets, the Acton vent on B&H 1010s and the doubled F/C key on several makes of Boehms - Leblanc and possibly Couesnon. The bell resonance hole has recently been applied to Boehms - the Forte clarinet has the bell resonance hole, Selmer and Buffet had a low E/F vent which was operated by the speaker key (closed when the speaker key was opened) and now the Tosca has the extra touch for low F that opens the vent key while it closes the F/C key.
Their inclusion on the Reform Boehm is most likely out of neccessity to give the correct venting to achieve something as near to Oehler-style venting but with the Boehm system. Having briefly tried a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm about ten years ago, I liked what they offered and if I had the money, I'd definitely get a set of them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-17 15:39
Well at least we have one report to dispell the theory that the suction test is irrelevant. Usely people say "It shows nothing because you are just pulling the pads in and the blowing operation of a clarinet is opposite to this. If one observes whether there is suction at all and if there is how long does it hold(in seconds) then the suction test is quite valid.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-18 10:06
As far as intentional leaks and pads etc.
I once had an Eb sent to the maker in Germany for an overhaul. When it got back, it had all untreated white leather pads. There was (next to) NO suction and it was quite sharp. It was so porous that you could inhale and exhale quite comfortably through the instrument At first, I thought that he didn't do a good job and he must have some leaks here and there or one big one that was causing all of it. It is a one piece body so looking for the key by pressing down pads with your free hand was kind of hard. I checked all the pads and thumb and register tube- they all covered all the way around.
I called the maker about it and complained that it didn't hold a suction. He immediately said, "Oh! The suction test won't work because the pads are untreated. As long as the pads cover all the way around, it's fine. We usually don't check the suction test here in Germany."
A bit upset, I changed all the pads to fish skin and there is now a normal amount of suction, the pitch is better, and the instrument responds easier than before.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-09-18 13:01
I doubt that any intentional leak improves the sound.
I'd believe if it works for all clarinets.
But, I cannot understand how it works for one clarinet brand and not at all
for others.
PS: There are literally hundreds of these kinds of myths in violin making.
Of course, most of have no merit at all.
Post Edited (2009-09-18 13:04)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-18 13:05
Koo Young Chung wrote:
> I doubt that any intentional leak improves the sound.
>
> I'd believe if it works for all clarinets.
>
> But, I cannot understand how it works for one clarinet brand
> and not at all
>
> for others.
The principle (flattening of the resonance peaks) does work for all clarinets. The cleared-up clarion Ab I experienced, for example, was on a Buffet.
Whether the physical phenomenon actually *improves* the sound depends on the characteristics of the individual instrument and what you consider good sound to be--an exception to this would be something like my 2+2 Ab fingering where the usual sound of this fingering is of objectively poor quality and flattening the resonance peaks around this note actually *increases* the resonance (because the center frequencies of the resonance peaks for this fingering do not coincide with the frequencies of the harmonics for the note, which are always integer multiples).
Post Edited (2009-09-18 17:02)
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Author: Miguel Ruiz
Date: 2009-09-19 14:21
Hello,
Just a couple weeks ago I took my Bb clarinet (Seggelke) to the local technician to change the pads of the bottom joint. He was using the tephlon or goro-tex wurlitzer pads in my clarinet. I have to say that these pads give to my instrument a lot problems with leaks... It is true the feeling of the wurlitzer pads is really good, very soft and quiet, but these are very unstable producing leaks and a very poor sound. The technician has to remove some pads becuase was imposible to fix the leaks, and he has to put cork pads instead, waiting to get regular pads.
Now, my Bb clarinet has a mixture pads and it is not completed sealed and my A clarinet with regular leather pads has a good sealed feel. And the different in the sound it is clear. The A clarinet sound more resonat, bigger and freer than the Bb clarinet.
I am not a woodwind technician or an accustics expert, I am the opposite, but I think that all the clarinets has micro-leaks air, and that made to the instruments its proper sound. If would be possible to build a instrument with a perfect sealed air, probably this instrumet would not sound right. But when the leaks are too obvious, the insttument do not sound fine either.
Miguel
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-09-21 02:27
I know I am chiming in late on this discussion. Just wanted to say that I am in 100% agreement with Greg. The better the seal the better the response and the resonance of the instrument. A pad tht doesn't seal just causes problems.
Walter Grabner
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-09-21 23:32
I didn't read all the threads, so this may have been answered, but how does one ("by drilling a microscopic hole") drill a microscopic hole in wood? I imagine a very small hole can be drilled, but not a "microscopic" hole. I don't buy it.
Post Edited (2009-09-21 23:39)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-21 23:45
And as wood already has thousands of microscopic vessels running through it, why make more (and larger ones)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-09-21 23:50
one of my teacher's friends who played for the chicago symphony actually had his clarinet so airtight that it made a popping noise when he changed notes... so basically it can't be too airtight or suction actually happens or changes in notes are highly accented.
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The Clarinet Pages
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