 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-14 15:52
Let's face it - quality control doesn't exactly seem to be high on the agenda from several top manufacturers nowadays provided they can shift large numbers quickly.
Just wondering when it comes to choosing an instrument, are you more concerned with tone quality over build quality?
There may be instruments that sound great, but the workmanship leaves a lot to be desired.
If you already spent a small fortune on an instrument you bought because you like the way it plays (tone and intonation-wise), though aren't over the moon about certain mechanical issues, would you feel you've been done if you then had to shell out some more to have things put right (things that slipped through the manufacturer's net) by an independent repairer of your own choice?
If the offer was there to have it all set up and have various issues rectified, would you still have it sent back to the manufacturer or an affiliated repairer to put it right if they couldn't get it right the first time?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-14 16:29
I would expect the manufacturer (or his designated representative) to put the instrument into top playing condition (at no cost to me), as per original factory specs, if I would buy an instrument that was mechanically sub-par. No excuses. You should get what you pay for.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-14 18:28
I've found that finishing touches tend to be left to less than grade A craftsmen.
If the instrument in question is sound enough, that is wood, keys, springs; having the corks, pads and feel put right is the provence of a fine third party technician.
I hate to disagree with Jeff, but honestly NO manufacturer guarantees that YOU will PERSONALLY be satisfied with the horn "as-is" for the 4 to 10 thousand that you pay for it.
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-09-15 11:24
Couple of issues here...
For good tone and intonation the mechanism has to meet a certain minimum standard. Then to stay in tune the mechanism has to meet a certain standard of durability. These things I think are essential. Plating wear is probably included here.
Then there are issues of finish... I'd /expect/ a top line instrument to have superb finish all over, but I might not demand it.
After that there's things like spring tension & ring height which can be adjusted to taste by a competent engineer. I'd expect these to be fairly tightly controlled by the manufacturer, but I might expect a number of players to fiddle with them as a matter of course.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-15 11:57
Some specific pet peeves:
Where you have adjustment screws and there is cork (or felt) OVER the side with the screw end instead of the opposing side.
Overly tight springs, particularly the rings (these only need to be held UP).
Left hand paddle keys (of the lower joint) that DON'T terminate in teflon tenons - very noisy unless you're always on top of it with new fish skin.
Cork on the thumb ring juncture with it's associated pad-key - should have some form of teflon for quick response.
......and........
In some instances I've tried new horns where pads just did not seal properly. One must be very careful to NOT let this influence the decision on the horn since this is an easy fix.
..................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-15 12:04
Paul wrote:
"I hate to disagree with Jeff, but honestly NO manufacturer guarantees that YOU will PERSONALLY be satisfied with the horn "as-is" for the 4 to 10 thousand that you pay for it."
The maker of hand made instruments certainly do. There reputation is on the line each time they sell one of their instruments so they make sure it is every bit what a costumer wants.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-15 13:24
Even if they may not leave the factory in perfect shape, I would expect the final dealer to have put an instrument into shape before I purchase it. Car dealers prep cars before they leave the lot. Is it too much to ask that instrument vendors do the same? I don't think so. They should leave the factory in the best shape possible, and afterwards, a tech in the store should make sure each instrument is in top shape, especially on upper-level instruments in the $4K plus range!
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 13:55
> Even if they may not leave the factory in perfect shape, I would expect the
> final dealer to have put an instrument into shape before I purchase it.
That's (partly) what a dealer margin is meant for. But apparently it's easier to lower the selling price than to put in some "added value". And all the mail order companies with their no-questions-asked-money-back guarantees had an easy job and eventually also sold that refused-twenty-times lemon to some unsuspecting customer.
I don't know if this has changed - for Buffet - when they introduced a minimum selling price. When dealers can't compete with rock-bottom prices any longer, maybe they can with services?
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-15 15:01
"If you already spent a small fortune on an instrument you bought because you like the way it plays (tone and intonation-wise), though aren't over the moon about certain mechanical issues, would you feel you've been done if you then had to shell out some more to have things put right (things that slipped through the manufacturer's net) by an independent repairer of your own choice?"
Even if the horn was not very expensive I would require that the seller fix the problem. Tom Redinour was very helpful when I sent him back the Lyrique to work on- that's the way it should be.
This is just my personal philosophy- when I buy something, I expect it to work. Plain and simple. Since I do repair myself I know that nothing is unfixable. If they tell me that I have made an err and the clarinet (or any product for that matter) is perfect (and this has happened with repair jobs), I just take my money elsewhere.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-15 15:49
Now I must disagree with Peter Cigleris.
I speak of my Hand Made pair of Wurlitzer 100c(s) that came with corks positioned OVER adjustment screw ends. So when you try to adjust the screw, it either doesn't, or it has to pop through the cork first.
Does this make sense?
Shouldn't a pair of clarinets that (adjusted for today's dollars) cost $20,000 be just the way I want it?
The answer is NO.
We all have our preferences about thumbrest position etc., but the bottom line is how well the clarinet produces a SOUND that you want and how well in tune it plays (with itself).
All the other things can be adjusted.
For those who want things perfect or return the merchandise, I suggest you only shop at WalMart.
..................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-09-15 15:54
>> There may be instruments that sound great, but the workmanship leaves a lot to be desired.
Surely if it /sounds/ great it /is/ great?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-15 15:56
Not if it goes out of regulation easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-15 16:14
Well Paul I had a good experience from Peter Eaton when I bought my instruments direct from him. There were a couple of issues that arose later while I was preparing for a Weber 2 performance and I went back and had them resolved. When I bought them all was as I wanted.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-15 19:34
Most of the independent retailers, especially the small single person owned, "Set up" the instrument before sending it or having you pick it up. That is they make sure all the pads are seating well and the springs and keys are adjusted to your liking etc. I know of many players that have bought a new clarinet and almost immediately have the new clarinet overhauled. Something I could never understand. I've always suggested they play it for a few years, have any small adjustments that are needed after breaking it in and waiting to have it overhauled when it needs it. The exception to that would be if they don't like the pads on the new instrument for some reason or other.
Why would anyone buy a new clarinet if they thought the workmanship or the quality of the wood was less then high quality. Nothing comes out of the shop exactly like everyone likes it so many might need to be tweaked to your personal liking. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-15 19:45
Chris -
It's not that simple. Kal Opperman says that the Buffet bass clarinets from the 1960s had the finest tone ever. However, the triple register mechanism was poorly designed and constantly got out of adjustment. I have one, which the late great Jimmy Yan had to fiddle with constantly.
When it's right, the current Buffet models don't come close, even though their keywork is far better. When it's off, I want to jump up and down on it and throw it out the window.
Anyone want to buy a great but very annoying bass?
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-15 20:54
A triple vent bass? Sounds interesting!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-09-15 21:45
Ed and how can we check out that the instrument is not likely to crack badly like all those new Selmers that we heard about recently and I've seen for myself(remember that I know of a repairman with a retailer with good reputation in UK who said that in his 40 years of working he had only seen about 5 Buffets that had cracked beyond repairing but dozens of Selmers) ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-16 04:42
For someone who just wants/needs a reliable clarinet that sound (very) good I'd say build quality is more important. Just make sure no mechanical problems, and there are many instruments like these that sound excellent. This will be good for all beginners, and many professionals too. For someone who is looking for a specific tone they want/need/like, just make sure that specific clarinet doesn't have a mechnical problem beyond repair (for reasons such as as cost), or instead willing to compromise. Usually the best clarinets with the better tone have a reasonable build quality that is either accetable for most players or possible to fix.
I disagree with Ken Shaw about that model bass clarinet necessarily being better than other models.
>> I would expect the manufacturer (or his designated representative) to put
>> the instrument into top playing condition (at no cost to me), as per original
>> factory specs, if I would buy an instrument that was mechanically sub-par.
>> No excuses. You should get what you pay for.
the problem is, what exactly are you paying for...? What if the "original factory specs" are exactly what need to be fixed? If a clarinet was better designed and build it would probably cost significantly more than it costs now. If a seller has to do significant set-up, sometimes almost re-manufacture of some things, they usually can't have competitive price.
I can give an example of a $6,000 saxpohone I worked on a while ago. It is made by a famous small company and is "hand made", "custom made", or whatever you want to call it. It had a serious flaw in low C# linkage. Both sides of the linakge had to be re-shaped to have a good feel for the C# key. It was an ovbious design flaw and IMO a serious one.
I told the company about it. I saw the models about two years later it is still exactly the same. They were actually very nice and answered me, but ignored just that part.... If the store had to fix that linkage, the instrument would most likely have to cost even more. Probably same for the maker, for changing current design. The player decided to buy it anyway, and had the linakge fixed later.
Absurd is, this linakge is usually designed very good on the cheapest Chinese saxophones.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-16 14:47
Chris -
By "triple register mechanism," I meant the standard one -- two register vents and the throat Bb vent, all of which operate from the register key and all three of which must be perfectly coordinated.
As you know, adjustment is an incredible pain in the *ss, with long rods that are easily bent, multiple sliding contacts cushioned with tiny cork strips that must be kept lubricated (but free of crud), soft enough to avoid noise yet hard enough slide freely, and springs that operate in contrary motion that must be exquisitely adjusted to overcome one another.
A bass clarinet with a third register vent, perhaps switching between clarion G and A (like the sax or the oboe), would probably be easier to play, but I can only imagine the complication of the mechanism -- worse than a full Mazzeo or a plateau Boehm. Ah well, at least the Schuller transposing double clarinet system never caught on http://anticwindbooks.chez-alice.fr/clarinet/clar14/clar14.html.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2009-09-16 15:25
Ken
My bass overblows to produce clarion B to E flat by opening the same tone hole that plays the throat B flat. It then switches to the second (and last) register hole at E upwards. The side B flat trill key is not operated by the register mechanism.
I always thought this was the standard double register key that distinguished it from the single register versions. Am I wrong?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-16 16:25
Single register mechanisms have a seperate throat Bb vent and speaker vent operated by a single thumb key. The Bb vent opens when the speaker key is opened and either when the thumb is off the thumbplate or when the throat A key is opened. All upper register and altissimo vents employ the smaller diameter and higher up located speaker vent over their range - just the one vent serves upper register B and right up into the altissimo.
Double register mechanisms use the lower vent for throat Bb and the lower part of the upper register from B to Eb, then automatically switch over to the upper vent (usually on the crook, but sometimes on the top joint if the crook is short) as soon as RH3 is raised.
Simple register mechanisms have the two seperate thumb keys that have to be switched over by the player - the key directly above the thumb is for throat Bb and upper B-Eb, then is released and the key to the right is opened for E and above. I don't think there was ever a semi-automatic version (as oboes have been fitted with) whereby you can keep the lower touch held down and slide across to nudge open the upper one, and the lower vent closes when the upper one opens.
German basses have the triple vent mechanism where the lowest vent is used for throat Bb (opens when both which speaker key and throat A key are pressed together) and the upper register B-Eb, then closes as the middle vent opens when RH3 is raised for E-G#, which in turn closes when LH3 is raised for A-C.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
