 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-05 14:16
I have been playing for a little over two years now and have been using a number 2 Rico Royal for about 18 months. I can blow the 2.5 reed but it is more difficult to do. However the notes do seem to have a warmer sound to them using the harder reed.
So my question is how do you know when it is the right time to move onto a harder reed?
Thank you in anticipation.
Annie
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-05 14:31
Annie -
You ask the right question. Young clarinetists, particularly male ones, get into a macho "my reed is harder than yours" contest. You play what feels good and sounds good, regardless of the strength number.
However, it's natural to move to harder reeds as your embouchure develops, and many professional players use extremely hard reeds. It's always a judgment call.
If #2.5 reeds sound better, I advise giving them a good try to find out whether you can adjust. Keep some #2s around to use if you get too tired, but I think you'll find that the adjustment is easier than you expect, particularly if you are breathing correctly and giving good support.
It's always difficult to give advice without hearing you. If you can, start taking private lessons and ask your teacher to work with you on reed adjustment.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-05 15:37
Ken gave you very good advise. My feeling is that a person should slowly move up in strengths gradually until you find the ultimate strength for you. I would suggest you work with a 2 1/2 for a while. After you do that for a short time I'm willing to bet it will feel very comfortable and you will have a better tone and play the high notes better in tune as well. At some point you could then try some 3s and maybe even 3 1/2 but don't rush into that. Six months, a year or even longer if necessary. I'd suggest you also move up in reed quality, perhaps trying a box of Rico Grand Concerts instead, the cane is a higher quality than the Rico Royals. The GC are professional quality, the RR are more a student quality. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-09-05 17:24)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-09-05 15:49
I agree with both Ed and Ken here, but I would also suggest you talk with a teacher there.
If you don't have a teacher, I strongly suggest you find one.
It says you are in the UK, and I know that often british clarinetist use softer reeds than is standard in the US. It all depends on your playing style and ideal sound. Again, something to talk with a teacher about in person, who knows your playing.
I do agree with Ed fully that you should try some different types of reed. A good reed is almost more important than how strong it is. I've played #3 reeds which have sounded really dark and round, and I've played #4 reeds which were like paper, and very bright.
Try a few things and see what you like!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-09-05 16:54
Any change in reed strenth has to be coordinated with changes in mouthpieces.
If you move up in reed stiffness the mp that worked for you with a softer reed will give you problems. No doubt that a stronger embouchure and wind control may allow you to use a stiffer reed on your old mp but, IMO, that ain't the way to go.
Most well respected clarinet teachers still seem to aim to make their students professional symphony orchestra players .....not that there's anything wrong with that. But, for the rest of us moving up to stiffer reeds is not our mantra.
Bob Draznik
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Author: William
Date: 2009-09-05 17:26
Ken and Ed have pretty much said it all. I would just like to add that my old college clarinet proffessor often said that most clarinet players, "use reeds that are too stiff". In my own experiance, I often get into the "trap" of resorting to a stiffer reed to get the sound and range that I like and need. However, I have noticed that when my embouchure is in top shape, I am able to produce a quality sound and have much more intonation control with reeds that tend to be a bit softer. My point--rely more on the strengthening of your embouchre via regular quality practice sessions than on your equipement, like "harder" reeds because the tone quality seems instantly darker. Unless, of course, the harder reed gives you more range with better intonation and become easily played soon after adopting. It all comes down to what works best for you and makes you a "Happy Clarinetist".
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-05 19:05
Thank you all very much for your advice. I will continue to work on my enbouchure and breath control and work with the 2 1/2 reeds to see how I go.
Another question if I may, how do you know which mouthpiece to change to if you need to change the mouthpiece whenever you increase reed strength?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-05 21:43
Annie -
You may need to change reed strength when you get a new mouthpiece, but if Bob means that you need a new mouthpiece each time you move to a harder reed, I have to say I disagree. A good player can sound good on almost any mouthpiece.
What kind of mouthpiece are you playing? If it's the one that came with a student clarinet, a different (and better) mouthpiece can make a big improvement in your tone, but that's a change to make with a teacher's advice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-06 07:28
Thanks for your reply, Ken.
I have a Buffet E13 and am using the mouthpiece that was supplied with it. I have wondered about changing the mouthpiece but am not experienced enough to know what would be an improvement and what would not (or even if there is any advantage to changing it given that I am still a beginner.)
I previously bought a Yamaha student mouthpiece to go with my student clarinet but have not used that since I got the Buffet 17 months ago. I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the Buffet mouthpiece would be the better option.
Annie
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-06 13:27
Annie -
Buffet stock mouthpieces are famously dreadful. The Yamaha plastic mouthpieces are inexpensive and surprisingly good -- certainly better than the Buffet. I'd give it a try. If you can afford to spend a bit more, the Fobes Debut has an excellent reputation.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-09-06 15:11
"if Bob means that you need a new mouthpiece each time you move to a harder reed, I have to say I disagree."
The key word was coordinated. There is no doubt in my mind that a 2 year student will encounter difficulties moving up in strength while still using the mp he/she started with. Such difficulties often result in discouragement and the teacher should CONSIDER a change in mouthpiece....or a refacing. I doubt that a 2 year student could sound good on almost any mouthpiece.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-06 16:45
Stay with the soft reed as long as possible. I know it goes against common sense. The embouchure should almost be independent of the reed strength. The more the student can form a good embouchure and move air without trying to bite is a better approach in my books. As one pulls the clarinet towards you with the thumb there is a natural setting that occurs . Tom Ridenour illustrates this with his double lip video but it works with single lip as well. Certain things occur if the student keeps the softer reed. It might encourage more mouthpiece insertion in the mouth to get results with the higher notes but overall it might not be so bad to hang on to that soft reed and work on good embouchure and blowing techniques.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-06 16:51
Ken, after I posted this morning I decided to give the Yamaha mouthpiece a try. It did not sound as breathy (is that the corect term?) as the Buffet mouthpiece using the harder reed so I will see how that goes.
Bob, I do not understand what you mean by "I doubt that a 2 year student could sound good on almost any mouthpiece." Given that, how is it possible to find which is the best mouthpiece to use?
Annie
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2009-09-06 16:55
Ken's comment about finding 3.5 reeds that are nice and warm and dark and having 4s that are paper thin is very interesting to me. As any of us can attest to the consistency from reed to reed is appalling. I work in an industry where consistency is about as important as the product we sell itself and if I had the consistency of any of the brand of reeds I've used (which is mainly van Doren but I've also tried Gonzalez, the nice Ricos, and a few other off-brands) I'd be fired. I realize that different people need different strengths but when I can go into a box of reeds, throw two junkers away, have to cut down 2 because they're too soft, sand a couple others, and have about 2 or 3 that are good right out of the box...I guess it makes you wonder why we put up with this lack of consistency except for the fact that it's just what we're all used to.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-06 19:33
Annie,
A breathy sound is often an indication that the reed is too hard for the mouthpiece -- or at least not balanced properly. In my experience, one of the problems with stock Buffet mouthpieces is that they are too resistant, particularly for a beginner. I also expect that most of them aren't particularly reed-friendly. Yamahas come in different facings but the ones normally supplied with student clarinets tend to be less resistant, which probably explains why yours feels better with the 2 1/2 reed. Also, as Ken notes, Yamaha mouthpieces are probably made with greater care than the stock mouthpieces supplied with Buffet clarinets.
When you ask, "how is it possible [for a 2nd-year student] to find which is the best mouthpiece to use," I think you are showing a wisdom far beyond your years. Most 2nd year students aren't far enough along in their development to make such a judgment -- certainly without help from a good teacher who is experienced with beginning students.
I also disagree with Bob D's comment that moving to a stronger reed requires a change in mouthpiece -- at least as far as you are concerned. IMO, Bob is forgetting a third variable -- your embouchure. He is also assuming that your already have the optimal reed for the mouthpiece you are playing. For an advanced player, whose embouchure is fully developed and who has found the best reed strength for their mouthpiece, embouchure and clarinet, Bob's statement is probably true. However, I don't think it holds for developing beginners. It certainly did not hold for my daughter when she first started to play. In my experience, when one's embouchure is still developing, they will almost certainly require a lighter reed for a given mouthpiece than they would want when their embouchure is fully developed.
While some students may have special needs because of physical characteristics, I think that most beginners are best served by starting with a good basic beginner's mouthpiece and a relatively light student reed. Your Yamaha mouthpiece is probably fine. The Fobes Debut and Hite Premier are both, IMO, inexpensive good choices and there are others made by Pyne, Behn, Redwine and probably some others I am overlooking. Some good teachers also recommend the Vandoren 5RV or 5RV Lyre but those mouthpieces are a bit pricier and IMO no better.
Personally, I think that Rico Royal #2 reeds are fine to start with. They are what my daughter's teacher (recognized as one of the best teachers in St. Louis for beginning students) started her on. As the embouchure develops, when the 2s become too light (you can usually tell because they start to close up on you causing squeaks) then a student can move up in strength to a 2 1/2. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about trying a lot of different reed brands and mouthpieces at this point. Unless your Yamaha is uncomfortable, it should serve you for at least a few more years. Also, at your stage of development, IMO the Rico Royals are fine.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-07 11:53
Thanks for your in-depth reply jnk.
Can I just ask one more question please? I know I am still at the beginning of a very long journey with my clarinet playing but can you tell me for how long a student is considered to be a beginner?
How long roughly(given reasonable daily practice and a lot of effort) will it be before I can say that I play clarinet? To the nearest five years will do.
Annie
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-09-07 12:50
"I also disagree with Bob D's comment that moving to a stronger reed requires a change in mouthpiece --"
If you read my post,Jack, you won't find such a comment.
"Bob, I do not understand what you mean by "I doubt that a 2 year student could sound good on almost any mouthpiece." "
I've played on many mouthpieces,Annie, and the fact is that there is a wide variation in them, both within a given model and among different sources.
A person who has played on a wide selection will develop the ability to adapt to many of them but merely being able to adapt doesn't mean that person will choose to use just any one. Most 2 year students have probably only played on one or two mouthpieces and, so, they have limited experience adapting.
The subject has been discussed for a long time on this BB. If you care for additional comments from me please email me direct.
Bob Draznik
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Author: AnnieMatilda
Date: 2009-09-07 16:07
Thank you for that explanation Bob. I understand what you mean now and if I have any further queries on the subject I will email you direct.
Annie
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-07 17:52
Annie,
I think the point where one passes from "beginner" to "intermediate" level is based more on what one can do with the instrument than how long one has played. Obviously, the point where one passes from "beginner" to "intermediate" student will vary from student to student and depend on many factors -- innate talent, motivation and effort, quality of instruction.
If you can do everything in a good beginner's book easily and well, e.g., perhaps the first book in the Rubank series, you can probably call yourself an intermediate player. David Hite put together a brochure he called "The Clarinetist's Study Guide." Though, sadly, he has passed away and the great website he and his wife maintained is apparently gone (it didn't pop up immediately in a Google search the way it used to but I didn't try to track it down), the "Study Guide" is still available at:
http://www.ruraltek.com/jdhite/study/clarinet-p.htm
I would say that when when students pass from his "Level 1" to his "Level 2," they probably pass from "beginner" to "early intermediate."
Bob,
I apologize. I guess I misunderstood your comment:
"Any change in reed strength has to be coordinated with changes in mouthpieces. If you move up in reed stiffness the mp that worked for you with a softer reed will give you problems."
To me (and I suspect many others) that sounded like "moving to a stronger reed requires a change in mouthpiece." I realize you added the qualifier:
"No doubt that a stronger embouchure and wind control may allow you to use a stiffer reed on your old mp but, IMO, that ain't the way to go."
I disagree because, in my experience, most beginners start out on a reed that will become too soft for their mouthpiece as they develop. Again, that was certainly the case for me and everyone else in my starting class and, many years later, was also the case for my daughter.
I'm curious to know, if "a stronger embouchure and wind control allow [a student] to use a stiffer reed on [his/her] old mouthpiece" why ain't it the way to go? Also, in that situation, what is the way to go? (I'm not saying here that I think a student's goal should be to progress to harder reeds for the (macho) sake of using harder reeds or that a move to a harder reed always signifies that one is a more advanced player. Trying to play harder reeds than the embouchure, air support and mouthpiece allow is IMO, a recipe for trouble. But, also IMO, playing a reed that is too soft is a recipe for trouble.)
Best regards,
jnk
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