 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: firstimer
Date: 2009-08-21 19:58
I bought a clarinet from Ebay and need help to identify if its an R-13 or pre-13.
Serial #29772 which by going by the buffet website might be a 1973-1975 clarinet. IO dont know
It says it is a wood clarinet--buffet crampon BC and then below that it says made in france.
go here to look at full item
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310161871937&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
I won it but I just wanted to know if I got a good deal or a really good deal.
Please help with final identification processs. and yes i have gone here to try and identify but i am not the pro at this---http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php
so a little help please
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-08-21 20:13
Serial #29772 - Made in approximately 1945 or 1946.
It's a pre R13.
...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-21 20:13
S/N 29772 was made in 1945. See http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html. The R13 was introduced in late 1954 or early 1955, around S/N 48800. The $420 price seems fair if the instrument is in good shape.
You can also tell that it's no an R13 by the shapes of some of the keywork. The one in the photo has the bottom of the throat Ab key and the right of the throat A key mounted on a single post, and the trill key guide is shaped like an inverted "V". On the R13, the throat keys have separate posts and the trill key guide is like a column with a rounded top.
Older clarinets, such as S/N 29772, can be excellent, but they must be in original condition, without any reaming in the barrel or the top of the upper joint (above the register tube). Look down the upper joint. If the surface is dull above the register tube (and shiny below), I would reject the instrument.
Also, check the intonation very carefully, with an electronic tuner in the hands of a friend, so you can't see it and make corrections.
Ken Shaw
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Author: firstimer
Date: 2009-08-21 20:37
thanks guys
So Ken--what your trying to say is if the reaming is somewhat different down the entire clarinet it might be pieced together???
not sure but i gather by your statement if it is dull in one part of the shaft and shiny in another part --that this would be an indication of the clarinet being pieced together? please explain in further detail.
As you know i got it on ebay and there is no way to examine it without purchasing it first and getting it home. Is there a question i could ask the seller that would give me some sort of indication as to what your saying?
Thanks again
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-21 22:56
firstimer -
Older instruments frequently had the upper joint reamed out from the top of the joint down to the register vent, usually by repairmen who were trying to fix intonation problems. This almost always made the intonation even worse. It has nothing to do with piecing joints together from two instruments.
Tell the seller the actual age of the instrument and ask him to check whether the bore at the top of the upper joint is dull rather than shiny. If it's dull, I wouldn't buy the instrument.
Even if the bore is intact, I wouldn't buy it unless you can negotiate a "money back if you don't like it" agreement. I've had bad luck with most auction instruments. The only ones that turned out really well were a Buffet Bb/A pair from 1908 that had obviously sat in a closet unused for 99 years.
There's too much risk in buying an old instrument, particularly if you can't try it before making a firm commitment.
You will probably need a replacement barrel, since barrels have almost always been re-reamed due to warping because they get so wet. A barrel can make a big difference. Go to one of the makers who sponsor this site.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-08-21 22:56
What Ken was saying about the reaming is that if it looks as he descrived it, someone reamede out the bore after taking possession of the instrument, most likely. It may all be the same clarinet, but its characteristics will have been changed by the reaming out of the bore. In other words, it's like a car with the original engine, but someone had the cylinders bored out. It will not perform as it was designed to by the manufacturer.
Jeff
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Author: firstimer
Date: 2009-08-22 02:33
well well well, Ken you may have something here...
I basically asked the seller about the clarinet being shiny or dull on the inside of the barrel and the upper joint.
this was my question to the Seller---
"hey i have a quick question about the clarinet if you could Look at the bore to see whether it's shiny all the way down, particularly in the area from the top of the upper joint down to the register tube, and also in the barrel. Is it Shiny all the way down or is there some dullness to it?
thank you"
These were his exact words...
"hello,
i am no expert but it all looks dull to me.
thanks"
Now what to do--is it crap--or will it still work??
I am no expert--this is for my child who is going into high school and wanted to upgrade her clarinet and give the older one to her younger sister. She said she wanted a buffet--which meant nothing to me--so we got her one thinking this would be fine. But looks like it might not be--I dunno--Kinda at a loss here as to what to do. I hate to renig on something i have purchased through ebay even though now there is no negative feedback for not paying for an item.
HELP !!!!
Post Edited (2009-08-22 02:41)
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-08-22 12:44
There are plenty of people on this board who cannot fathom the idea of buying an instrument that hasn't been play tested first, but they are most likely pros, or near-pros, and the way their instrument plays is of utmost importance to their careers. That's fine.
There are also plenty of people who don't like the idea of buying online...some in support of local instrument dealers (which is cool), but some because the instrument is an "unknown" until it arrives, and that uncertainty is troublesome to them.
I have no such fear, and have successfully bought four clarinets off of eBay. Two of them were in playable, but less-than-perfect condition, which I expected because they were both older instruments. I have a good tech who, for the additional cost of about $85, got both instruments in great playing shape.
Your seller has 100 percent feedback and more than 2,200 items sold or bought. That's a great feedback rating, so I would assume that the seller is honest, or people would not continue to do business with him. However, if he's not a clarinet player, then the horn might arrive in a slightly different condition than what you expected, but I would imagine it is in acceptable condition.
The chances of this one clarinet having had the bore reaming treatment described above seems quite remote. In my 25 years of non-professional playing, I have never known anyone to have the bore of their clarinet messed wiith.
Looks like you got a nice, name-brand instrument that, even if it has some flaws, can most likely be worked on at your local instrument shop, and made into something your daughter will treasure.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-08-22 16:09
Had you asked the seller your question before you bought the instrument, you might have decided not to bid. That's fine. But you didn't ask the question and you bid and you won. If a seller can't give a buyer negative feedback when a buyer renegs, I don't know what a seller can give negative feedback for. As I read eBay's policy, if the seller places a Resolution Center case for an unpaid item and the case is not resolved, the buyer will receive an unpaid item strike and the buyer loses the right to leave feedback on the transaction. Too many unpaid item strikes can affect a buyer's eBay privileges. I see nothing in the policy that prohibits the seller from leaving negative feedback.
eBay's rules notwithstanding, you do have a contract. You purchased the item "without a try-out period" and the price you paid reflects this condition. You get a lower price for accepting risk. This particular seller does allow a buyer to return an item if he misrepresented it. IMO, however, the seller did not misrepresent the clarinet. FWIW, I think Glenn should have put his "pre-R13" in quotes. R13 vs. pre-R13 is a nice distinction created pretty much on this Board. Buffet adopted the designation R13 for its professional clarinets sometime between 1950 and 1955 but, for many years prior to that, Carl Fischer, Buffet's importer in the U.S. at the time, designated these instruments in its catalog as R13s so the instrument was designated as an R13 at the time of its original sale. In other words, what we call "pre-R13" on this board, U.S. music stores called "R13." We make the distinction in our discussions as a short-cut way to distinguish professional Buffets made with a cylindrical "master bore" (so-called "pre-R13s") from the later models made with a polycylindrical bore ("R13s").
Your backing out of the deal would mean the seller loses the sale he would have made to the next highest bidder. IMO, you have a legal and moral obligation to pay for the item. If you don't want it, you can resell it.
In fairness to you, as I read your posts, I don't think your original inclination was to reneg. Please don't let others talk you into it. I am really disappointed in the people who have recommended that you not honor your commitment -- especially when they haven't seen the instrument. FWIW, I think you got a fair deal on a clarinet that needs some work. I doubt you'd lose much in a resale. You might even make a profit.
As far as the bore is concerned, Buffet used to put a padding finish on the bores of their clarinets. The fact that the entire bore appears to be dull probably only means that constant use and swabbing over the years wore this thin finish off.
Based on the price you paid, which takes into account the risk that comes with purchasing an item the way you did rather than through a store, I think you got a fair deal. Whether it turns out to be a "good deal" or a "really good" deal -- or a dog -- depends on how well the instrument plays after you have it checked out by a repair tech. That's the risk you took.
Off my soapbox.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2009-08-22 16:14)
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2009-08-22 23:24
hi firstimer - you asked a good question above, but asked it at the wrong time. all things need to be sorted for the buyer before they make an offer. online auction sites are a great place to get a bargain, but without information it is a bit like a "lucky-dip". when the buyer asks questions they take out some of the guesswork. especially when the seller only gives a minimal description and professes ignorance.
sellers with sales in the thousands and specialising in woodwinds really shouldn't be ignorant when it comes to stating the model they are selling, especially if it's a Buffet and it has a legible serial number. if he didn't know that it isn't an R13, then it's because he didn't want to know.
as a buyer you can choose to research an item or not. that is your choice. but if you, or anyone, decide not to, then it is your responsibility, and not the seller's, if it isn't what you wanted. for me, the less i know about something i'm thinking of buying, the more "homework" i set myself.
i hope it turns out to be be a great instrument for your daughter and she appreciates it.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-08-23 01:00
c'mon firsttimer, you bought a Buffet at the astronomical price of $420. Whoa.
Now just wait till the instrument arrives and then give it a test honk. Then carry it over to your repair person, if necessary, and after it's got the nod play it again and decide whether or not you like the tone.
If you do, you've made a great investment at comparable little price.
If you don't, you can still sell that beast at about the same price you've bought it for.
Let others muse about reamed bores and odd serial numbers. What counts is what you hear.
--
Ben
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Author: Drake
Date: 2009-08-23 01:55
Hi,
I bought a clarinet about a year ago from my clarinet lesson instructor. He had been selling it for another student of his. He checked it out, and it had been completely overhauled by the previous owner prior to sale. I have to question the capabilities of the person who performed the overhaul, because when I took it in to a repairman, he took one look at it and told me that several of the pads were attached so poorly that he was amazed I was able to get a sound out of it. He replaced them, and also noted that the previous repair person had used improper equipment while replacing the pads and that the finish on the wood was permanently blistered from the heat used to melt the adhesive. This is a shame because it is such a beautiful instrument.
Since the last repairs though, I have found it to have the most gorgeous tone of any clarinet. My repairman said that it has larger tone holes than most wood clarinets, which gives it a much bigger tone. I own another clarinet, a Selmer CL300, and its sound is nothing to the wood clarinet I have mentioned. The aforementioned clarinet is an S.M.L, serial number 11068. I love it and would like to find out more about it, but I can't seem to find much as its only markings are:
Made By
S.M.L
Paris
France
The serial numbers match (where the clarinet has them) so I know that it is a complete original instrument. If anyone can help me identify it, I would love to hear from you.
-Drake.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2009-08-26 18:27
firsttimer,
you will have to take this clarinet to a repair person before it is playable.
There is no cork on the lower tenon of the upper joint. So it will not stay together and create a air seal between the joints. You could use some tape as a temporary replacement for cork, but in all honesty it is probably best to have a repair person fix it up so that it is in tip-top shape.
IMHO $420 is a good price for a "pre-R13"
I paid $465 for a pre R13 full-boehm - ie, like this model but with more fingering options
real R13s tend to be above $800
FYI, in your earlier post you said your daughter wants a Buffet .. but you also failed to mention which model she would like?
She may have wanted a B12 model, which is plastic student model, which coincidentally is more shiny looking down the inside than a wood model.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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