 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-20 17:44
I know who I wouldn't have put in the top 5.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-08-20 18:03
Emma - top 100, maybe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Collins maybe top 10
Sabine top 5
Marriner maybe top 25
Frost top 10
They forgot to ask me on it 
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-08-20 18:12
I've never heard anything of Collins that I didn't like a lot. But I wouldn't put him above Tony Pay as an excellent Clarinetist who also happens to come from the UK.
Great player is a great player regardless of where they come from.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-08-20 18:27
Typical List:
> Regional bias (UK)
> PR/managers have something to do with these lists
> Writers think they know the field but they don't (how could they?)
> Probably wrote the article at their desks while eating lunch
> Most likely are not even musicians but journalists who own an iPod and needed the money for the story.
I hate these Top Ten, Best Of lists....
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-20 18:52
Marriner is an excellent but boring player. I got his recent Mozart Concerto and found it to be like a great, shining bus -- everything perfect, flawless and enormous, but I kept falling asleep.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Joel K.
Date: 2009-08-20 19:45
Obviously the person doing the ranking has no knowledge of players outside of Europe.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-08-20 19:45
Well Ken, maybe it was the music rather than the player? Anything by Mozart, played by anybody, puts me to sleep.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-08-20 20:18
Joel wrote:
<<Obviously the person doing the ranking has no knowledge of players outside of Europe.>>
I dunno. I think it probably has something to do with which soloists get more radio airplay. (Classic FM is a radio station, after all.)
In fact, most of the time when I've turned on the radio here in Dallas and they're playing a clarinet concerto or sonata, the soloist has been European (in fact, it's usually Sabine Meyer, although I've heard De Peyer and Emma Johnson as well).
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-08-20 20:24
This kind of list really gets to me. Whoever writes them perpetrates their OPINIONS as actual FACTS. In my opinion, that list would be similar but different, with Sabine as to, Frost second, etc. But, if you ask someone else, of course you will get a different list, and then someone else may not even have a single one of your favorites on their list. In fact, I'm sure if you asked one hundred people, you would be very lucky to get two lists that exactly match. All of the top players have absurdly solid technique. What it comes down to is what you like best musically. And that differs for everyone.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-08-21 05:41
Emma Johnson has sold more CDs and done more for the clarinet than all the other 99 of the top one hundred combined!
What could be clearer?! She's also of course, the best looking....
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-21 12:54
I'm sure they're all very fine players but quantity does not equate with quality. There are some great players that have never made a solo recording so how does one rate them? ESP
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-08-21 13:13
Are you contending about who's better Emma Johnson or Richard Stoltzman?
Wowww that's a standard!!!!!
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-08-21 17:01
justme thinks Sharon Kam is hot...can't dispute that!
Victoria Soames, though quite attractive, might not make anyone's hot list (sorry Vicky) but she's the most important clarinetist in the world! Her founding and support of Clarinet Classics has given us a whole range of clarinet recordings we never would have gotten otherwise.
Clarinet Classics is a marvelous resource and it's all due to her work and energy.
What's more her personal solo CDs are outstanding...hey, maybe she is hot after all!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-08-22 18:44
Haven't anyone heard of "pretty-fair" clarinetists named Shifrin and Drucker ?? I would put S way up there, perhaps by javing heard him more often ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2009-08-22 19:25
Way back when.....some critics thought Kell was "all that."
He came to Philadelphia and gave a recital.
Tabuteau* walked out after the first piece, shaking his head.
So much for critics and popular opinion.
*master oboist known for phrasing and sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Tabuteau
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2009-08-22 20:39
My personal top five is pretty close to that - minus Emma Johnson. I listen to other people more than Mr Frost so I suppose I might take him out of the top 5 if I were choosing it personally.
Ken - your feelings on Andrew Marriner surprise me, his Finzi Concerto recording is one of my favourite recordings of anything. I may be somewhat biased however, he was visiting professor for my four years of undergrad so I was lucky to be taught by him plenty of times - he's an even better teacher than player.
Joel - I have plenty of knowledge of players all over the world and yet my list of favourite players matches up pretty well to this one, so I don't think you can be that dismissive.
I think it's fairly natural that one will favour players from one's locale. I have ample opportunity to see Andrew Marriner, Michael Collins and even Sabine Meyer and Martin Frost in concert - however I have seen S Drucker only once and never, say, Ricardo Morales in the flesh. With Classic FM being a UK based radio station (and I suggest, very much the second fiddle classical music station behind BBC Radio 3) the poll is bound to be flooded with the artists that we here the most. Emma Johnson regularly appears at 'Classic FM Live' concerts also, so it's not surprising she's there.
Edited to add: no competition over the number 1 spot in my opinion anyway. Seeing Michael Collins live blows me away each and every time. Gnarly Buttons live - my word.
Post Edited (2009-08-22 20:42)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-08-22 21:46
This topic is quite useful. It promotes thinking about evaluating an art and discussion. There are of course many negatives depending how you approach it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-08-22 22:16
>>however I have seen S Drucker only once and never, say, Ricardo Morales in the flesh.>>>>
How many of us have? Even us US players.
DRG
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-23 02:34
I know I'm a bit prejudice but I really think the Ricardo Morales is one of the greatest clarinetist that has ever lived, at least of anyone I've ever heard. Though I do have to admit that I was one of his teachers. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-08-23 14:53
David,
He may have played several times, but to my knowledge, not "in the flesh".
Every time I've heard him he's had his clothes on.
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2009-08-23 19:14
top 5 clarinetist?
1. Karl Leister
2. Karl Leister
3. Karl Leister
4. Karl Leister
5. Karl Leister
:-)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-08-23 20:37
Any list of "top 5" clarinetists without Ricardo Morales is just plain bogus!
What makes him great? Outstanding musicality, supported by incredible tone, articulation and finger technique. Compared to him some of the others on the list border on mediocrity.
Isn't it suspicious that three of the top five are Brits?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-08-24 02:48
I wouldn't expect Ricardo Morales to be on a list like this--not because he isn't good, but because his output as a solo recording artist is very small and not well known.
Michael Collins, Emma Johnson, Sabine Meyer, and Martin Fröst I know all have pretty extensive discographies--on major record labels, too. (I'm less familiar with Andrew Marriner's recordings, unfortunately, but I'm willing to bet he's made quite a few, too) As far as I know, Morales has put out only one true *solo* album, and it's on Boston Records, a "specialty" label for woodwinds (so it's not nearly as visible as, say, an EMI or DG release).
First and foremost, this is a list compiled by a radio station--they deal with recordings and recording artists. Morales--good as he may be--isn't even on their radar, and I wouldn't expect him to be, even if this were an American publication. He just hasn't done enough solo recording work for anyone in radio to pay attention to him.
Getting off the topic of Ricardo Morales now...as for my own opinion/preferences (as if anyone really cares), Michael Collins, Sabine Meyer, and Martin Fröst are three of the clarinetists I listen to the most. I have no issue with any of them being considered "top 5" by anyone--they're in my "top 5," for sure. I find their playing very energetic and musically engaging.
Andrew Marriner I'm not so familiar with (I know who he is, just haven't heard his recordings), so I can't really comment about him. I don't really care for Emma Johnson's playing, but you do have to hand it to her--she sells a lot of recordings, so she must be doing something right.
Stravinsky once said that the best orchestration is that which you don't notice, and if a composer is admired for their orchestration (like Ravel or Rimsky-Korsakoff), that really doesn't say good things about them as a composer. I sort of feel that way about tone. What I've noticed is with the players I really, really like (like Sabine Meyer, for instance), I'm so wrapped up in the music, I don't think about things like tone or smoothness of technique. If the first thing I notice is someone's tone (whether it's good or bad), somehow they're not as good to me (either they're boring to listen to with a good tone or they play with a tone quality that seems so out of place that it's distracting). What I like most about Collins, Meyer, and Fröst is their musicality--they seem to "get" the music, and they're not boring to listen to like some players I've heard. All three have great tone and technique, of course, but that isn't what makes them great.
Incidentally, although much has been said about 3 Britons being on the list, I wonder if it occurred to anyone else that 3 out of these 5 players studied in Germany with Hans Deinzer. I wonder how much he charges per hour for lessons...
Post Edited (2009-08-24 18:11)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-24 13:21
It is true that Morales has not done many solo recordings so if one is determining the "best" players from that then he would not be considered but what makes him unique is exactly what Larry wrote. He's just an exceptional player. Sure there are many great players as well but he has to be considered on the top of the list of todays greatest players. And I agree that Leister has to be on that list too. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-08-24 16:32)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-08-24 16:34
Emma plays a large bore and it gives her tone an aspect some people don't care for. Gervase says a large bore is best for a good vibrato. Maybe so, he and Emma both have great vibratos.
Lister and Sabine have super techiques but to me, the German clarinet sounds somewhat like a soprano recorder with a high school education. Also the German clarinet (Wurlitzer et al) has an inflexible tone...have you ever heard one with a breathtakingly beautiful vibrato?
No one has mentioned Drucker, what happened has he disappeared already?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-08-24 17:47
According to my kids, I am the Best Clarinetist In the World.
This list means nothing to them nor should it be to you.
And I have a T-shirt to prove it. Bore size is meaningless. My T- shirt is an XL which allowed for frequent wear and shrinkage.
Post Edited (2009-08-24 17:48)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-08-24 17:56
Old Geezer wrote:
> Emma plays a large bore and it gives her tone an aspect some
> people don't care for. Gervase says a large bore is best for a
> good vibrato. Maybe so, he and Emma both have great vibratos.
I really think their sound has less to do with the bore size of the instrument and more to do with those players' tonal preferences. I've heard other people play large bore instruments who play with more "focused" sounds than Peyer and Johnson (myself included, since I used to play on a large-bore instrument in my school days--not as large as a 1010, but still much larger than an R-13). It seems that players who prefer to sound like Peyer and Johnson seem to gravitate toward those kinds of instruments (possibly for reasons of projection, but I'm not sure), but to sound like them I think you still have to have it in your mind that that's how you want to sound.
> Lister and Sabine have super techiques but to me, the German
> clarinet sounds somewhat like a soprano recorder with a high
> school education. Also the German clarinet (Wurlitzer et al)
> has an inflexible tone...have you ever heard one with a
> breathtakingly beautiful vibrato?
Geezer, you crack me up sometimes. Have you ever heard a German clarinetist play with a lousy vibrato?
Post Edited (2009-08-24 18:06)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-08-24 21:51
There are German players who play with some vibrato. Maybe not as a constant in their sound, but definitely with some.
I feel like some people here talk about the German school of playing, from hearing Sabine Meyer, or Karl Leister on recording. . . .
There is much more than them. Even Wolfgang Meyer throws in a little vibrato. There are also german jazz musicians who play with a very fine vibrato, and on Wurlitzers too.
It doesn't make any sense to hold an argument with a certain subject, knowing absolutely nothing about that subject. . . .
I choose not to comment on the actual subject of the thread, because it means nothing, and doesn't need to go anywhere.
I would, however, like to ask Old Geezer why he feels so inclined to defend Emma Johnson so aggressively. I must have seen 10 threads of you talking about her. I'm not saying anything for or against her, I'm just interested.
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-24 23:07
Dileep Gangolli said: " According to my kids, I am the Best Clarinetist In the World.
This list means nothing to them nor should it be to you."
This is all that matters!
Justme
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-08-25 07:40
British magazines are constantly putting up "Greatest Ever...." type polls or seeking reader feedback for various propositions they wish to float. It is like a disease. It is the publishing version of reality television. It is ill informed rubbish. They have to do something to fill the pages. It is obviously biased. However, I have always been surprised at how little solo American recorded playing is available in the UK, whereas the Scandanavian and German clarintettists have a field day here.
Having condemned it out of hand, I think a list that excludes Klocker (albeit he seems to have retired) but includes Johnson is pretty perverse. I would also say that Frost is worth his place in any list, and a big point about him is that he would I think be in any such list almost anywhere in the world (as would Meyer I imagine). I am surprised at the absence of Krikku, who seems popular as a recording artist.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2009-08-25 14:14
I think even with professionals it is a matter of horses for courses.
The best Mozart..Marcellus.
The best Spohr...Tony Pay.
The best Rossini..Martin Frost.
The best Messenger..Julian Bliss.
the list goes on. No player can be everything. Look for the players who strike a chord in a specific musical context.
Chris.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-08-25 14:39
Bart Humburgh wrote:
> This is one of the most ignorant threads on the clarinet BBoard
> in months!!!
The reason you haven't panned "The Classical FM" magazine for starting this inane discussion is?
Your adding to "one of the most ignorant threads" says exactly what about you?
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Author: Bart Humburgh
Date: 2009-08-25 14:48
yes Mark, you are correct. I am ignorant for adding on to this thread and causing it to climb to the top of the front page yet again. and YES, "The Classical FM" magazine is the instigator of ANOTHER top top top clarinetist list referenced on this BBoard. This site (clarinet BB) has too much valuable information for the clarinet community that should not be diluted with this sort of rubbish (my current post included--yes- its also rubbish as it is part of this inane thread)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-08-25 16:05
You know, this sort of discussion doesn't have to be "ignorant." While it really makes no difference whatsoever whether somebody has "made the list" or not, lists like this *can* serve as a springboard for meaningful discussion about things that do matter such as:
1.) What is good or not so good about certain players' playing and what can we learn about good (or bad) musicianship from listening to them? (For better or for worse, these people are our teachers--if you don't believe me, compare the score of the Copland Concerto to the recordings. Every recording I've ever heard of that piece contains idiosyncrasies of the Benny Goodman recording that don't match what's written in the score. We all learn from listening, it seems--even the pros.)
2.) What do lists like these say about the people who make them (in this case, radio people) and their artistic preferences?
3.) Related to 2, how do our aesthetic views as clarinetists differ from those of non-clarinetists with regard to clarinet playing? Why is this?
4.) Related to 3, how is it that a player like Emma Johnson can be so popular with/admired by the music-consuming public, but so unpopular among clarinetists?
5.) Who represents the "leading" or "mainstream" approach to British clarinet playing these days? Or does such a thing even exist?
6.) Why has no one mentioned any French clarinetists? What are the French up to these days?
7.) What makes someone a good soloist, as opposed to an orchestral player?
8.) Is there a greater emphasis placed on orchestral playing in the U.S., as opposed to solo/chamber playing? If there is such a trend, is the opposite true in Europe, perhaps?
9.) Are there differences in aesthetic taste between music lovers on different sides of the Atlantic? If so, what are they and why do they exist?
10.) Related to 9 (but subtly different in an important way), do *musicians* on opposite sides of the Atlantic have different ideas of what "good" means in relation to one's clarinet playing?
11.) What do we clarinetists listen for first in judging a person's playing? Tone? Technique? Musicality?
12.) How do the artistic approaches/styles of today's clarinetists (as represented by these 5 players) compare with those of the giants of yesterday? What is different about them? What is the same? In what direction is the art moving?
And I could go on... My point is that just because you start with something as silly as a "top 5" list, that doesn't mean you can't have a meaningful discussion.
Post Edited (2009-08-25 16:44)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-08-25 16:12
You know this quote from the Classic FM Magazine is taken from Collin's website so I wonder if it say's more about him or the journalist/s that put this list together ?
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-08-25 18:08
"srattle" wants to know why I defend Emma so aggresively. I just point out some of her accomplishments that you all seem to ignore. If she was a man I wonder if you would be showering "him" with so many baseless criticisms? Her carreer speaks for itself.
She took time out early in her professional carrer to study English and Music at Cambridge U. This doesn't necessarliy make her a better clarinetist but a universilty education will enhance anyone's character.
I never said she was the best in the world...but she certainly belongs in the first rank.
This thread is not "ignorant" or "useless." It is quite interesting and amusing in what it reveals about the class or not of some of it's members.
And remember all you naysayers the Old Geezer didn't start it!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-08-25 18:50
Old Geezer wrote:
> " If she was a man I wonder if you would be showering
> "him" with so many baseless criticisms? Her carreer speaks for
> itself.
Reverse the sex and think Stoltzman or Bilk or Kell or ...
Haven't we had those discussions before?
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