 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-10 21:59
Here's a study that's been done that is of interest to clarinet players.
Even though they are using oboes for this test, it can be applicable for clarinets as well.
It's titled: "The effect of bore material on the perception of oboe tone quality."
Here's the URL:
http://www.idrs.org/Publications/Journal/JNL13/JNL13Diam.html
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-08-10 22:08
I go by what I hear, and what I feel. If I have to work hard, it's not good. If it doesn't sound as good it's not as good.
So why does a Grenadilla barrel feel and sound quite differently from a Coco - same manufacturer?
Since it was memorex tape, maybe they should have done it live....
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-10 22:27
"Since it was memorex tape, maybe they should have done it live...."
Perhaps, but the fact remains that even the oboists couldn't tell the difference between the wood and synthetic instruments.
Also, the wave forms of four notes were compared using printouts from a wide-band analyzer at the different frequencies.
The result being that it was the quality of the instrument rather than the material of said instrument that made the difference.
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2009-08-10 22:28)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-08-11 19:37
I now have an excellent opportunity to conduct an experiment with bass clarinets, if I can just find the time and a group of volunteer listeners. I have in my possession three fine Kohlert bass clarinets -- one each of wood, of hard rubber, and of metal. Granted they are from different eras and have some design differences (primarily in the register mechanism), but I believe they are close to identical acoustically.
To my ear they sound the same -- it would be fun to find out if other folks could tell the difference in a good double-blind test.
I'm sure that body material makes a very audible difference in thin-walled wind instruments having large surface areas (e.g French horns, and maybe even flutes to a lesser extent), but from what I've read (and what makes sense to me as an engineer), the effects of body material on a small-diameter but thick-walled instrument such as clarinet or oboe, should be inaudible. The caveat is always "all other things being equal", which they almost never are.
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Author: Pete
Date: 2009-08-11 20:11
Several years ago, a bunch of us technicians did a live version with wood and plastic clarinets. This was a room full of about 50 trained musicians and repair people.
The result, even trained musicians could not hear the difference on blind tests. Some of the responses were 80% incorrect, the instruments they swore were wood were actually plastic and vise versa. In the end, though, it all averaged out. You could have flipped a coin on each test, and you would have gotten the same amount of correct answers.
Emerson Musical Instrument Repair
North East Wisconsin Band Instrument Co.
ToneLure Tone Enhancement
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Author: Pete
Date: 2009-08-11 20:15
Here is another idea to ponder. Take the finest wood bassoon. You play into a metal bocal. The bore is lined all the way to the brass U tube, and many are lined back up the other side. The only thing the wood is doing is holding on the keys. I don't think it is the wood that makes the tonal difference between pro and student models.
Emerson Musical Instrument Repair
North East Wisconsin Band Instrument Co.
ToneLure Tone Enhancement
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-12 01:15
Pete said: " Several years ago, a bunch of us technicians did a live version with wood and plastic clarinets. This was a room full of about 50 trained musicians and repair people.
The result, even trained musicians could not hear the difference on blind tests."
This seems to be the result of all of these kinds of tests!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-08-12 04:47
>> So why does a Grenadilla barrel feel and sound
>> quite differently from a Coco - same manufacturer?
A while ago a player had a problem with her barrel, and I let her try several. An identical barrel, same maker, model and material, just from a different clarinet, made a huge improvement. Of course his doesn't prove material makes or doesn't make a difference, but it does prove that in the situation you describe, you can't know the material is the reason for the difference.
>> I'm sure that body material makes a very audible difference
>> in thin-walled wind instruments having large surface areas
>> (e.g French horns, and maybe even flutes to a lesser extent)
Why are you sure? Just curious because the only meaningful experiments comparing glutes of different material showed no difference at all. For example, people couldn't notice any difference between flutes of completely different materials, like in the Coltman test. Or the thorough German test of Muramatsu flutes, which showed the claims of flutists about material are basically wrong. In addition, the same change should make the same difference. For example if you blow harder, you will play lourder. So keeping everytrhing the same, changing just to a certain material should make the same difference, and tests showed this is not happening.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-12 06:33
I think that material makes a bit of difference due to the weight and the effects of the way the instrument is carried. This usually translates to the player "feeling" that it is different even though the listener might not notice a big change.
If you place a heavier bell (or lighter barrel) on your clarinet, the mouthpiece will be pushed upward, towards your top teeth. This affects the embouchure and the way you can apply pressure with the lower lip. A lighter bell/heavier barrel will do the opposite.
Same goes for brass. If a trumpet player puts some heavy valve caps on, then they have to put more energy into holding the trumpet up in a different way than before. This will change how the instrument contacts the lips and this is what makes the real difference; the way it affects the lips and breath, not the heavy valve caps proper.
For these reasons, the effect is not on the actual vibration of the instrument, but on the way one uses their mouth and most people would agree that a change in the mouth will affect the sound.
As a test, try it. Take your wallet (or cell phone or anything) and tie it to a string and hang it from your bell. The pressure on your top teeth and mouth changed and the sound changed a little, too. At the very least you will "feel" a difference even if you don't hear it.
By the same token changing material (thus the weight and balance) of the entire instrument will make a bigger difference in this balance/weight/sound.
This explains why bassoons of different woods or plastics will "feel" different to the player even though they are mostly lined with plastic or metal.
So does this mean that a plastic clarinet will "sound different" than a wood one? Yes, in a way, because it is being held differently. However, the effect is not so drastic- they still both sound like clarinets and in the hands of a good player, both will sound good.
The problem with the results of the study above, and I am a little surprised that no one has mentioned it yet, is that there were only 6 oboes in the test. As we all know, there can be large variation in the sound even between 6 instruments of the same make, same model, same material. Any accurate statistical analysis would require hundreds of the same instrument to be valid.
Post Edited (2009-08-12 12:40)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-08-12 13:31
Materials make a huge difference to me. The confusing part is humans want to generalize regarding the tonal qualities that result. We want to put things into neat packages... "plastic, woody, dark, bright" and then attach that to a material.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-12 13:58
The IDRS article is quite old -- they talk about cassette recorders -- and, to me, superficial.
I've played high quality metal clarinets -- Bettoney and Haynes -- and found them indistinguishable in principle from wood instruments. The Hayes was a clone of the then-current Selmer (The CT, I think) and played exactly like one, and the Bettoneys (a Bb/A set owned by Charlie Ponte) were just like pre-R13 Buffets. Alex Williams told me he played a Bettoney Eb in the NY Philharmonic, and Gaston Hamelin used a silver clarinet in Boston, probably a Bettoney.
The only distinction between metal and wood that made sense to me came from Benade, who wrote that the difference between a smooth metal bore and the slightly rough wood bore would be significant.
Also, Benade found that a slight rounding of the junction between the tone holes and the bore made a dramatic difference in sound and response. These would be absent (or at least difficult to create) in metal and call for expensive hand work in plastic. Certainly artistic instrument tweakers do this work on wood clarinets, flutes and recorders, and probably oboes.
Ken Shaw
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-12 14:05
"Benade found that a slight rounding of the junction between the tone holes and the bore made a dramatic difference in sound and response."
This is present in modern saxophones as the tone holes are drawn from the body. Saxes were not always made like this and I think that most metal clarinets had soldered tone holes, which would give a sharp edge.
I personally find that all materials can give good results; I tested an Orsi metal clarinet last year that sounded quite wonderfully.
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