 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2009-07-27 04:34
Hey Bboarders,
I'm unsure if this topic has been discussed before, couldn't find anything using the search function.
My partner came to me in tears the other day after her teacher told her (not exact wording) that she wouldn't amount to anything because she wasn't good enough to be a performer. The teacher suggested she do pedagogy and become a teacher because thats the only other thing she could do with her music studies.
Now, after consoling a very distraught girlfriend I thought about this a great deal and had two distinct points of view on the matter. Firstly, that the teacher was out of line and should be aiming to further the students abilities regardless of their own ambitions or goals later in life. Shouldn't the role of teaching a student instrumental ability purely encompass musical tuition and not career guidance? Shouldn't the teacher be aiming to develop the students abilities regardless of whether the student believes in themselves or not?
On the other hand, part of me acknowledges that becoming a proffesional orchestral musician is one of the hardest occupations out there and realises just how very few musicians who leave tertiary institutions "make it" so to speak. I understand part of teaching a student is preparing them for whats out there, though is telling a student that they wont make it as a performer dooming them for failure regardless of how ever many years of experience they still have ahead of them?
Bearing in mind that students studying at tertiary institutions are still relatively young (17-21 years of age), was the teacher out of line in saying that a student wont become a performer? What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-27 07:18
All comments are in my opinion-
"Shouldn't the role of teaching a student instrumental ability purely encompass musical tuition and not career guidance?"
Generally no. If the teacher is teaching amateurs, then the lessons should be based on music exclusively. However, if the student aims for a profession in music, then the teacher has a responsibility to help the student understand the career that they wish to enter. Some teachers only teach music and they produce fine players that graduate and know a lot about playing music and know very little about being a working musician.
"Shouldn't the teacher be aiming to develop the students abilities regardless of whether the student believes in themselves or not?"
Well, in one sense, the teacher is a servant of the student since it is the student that selects the teacher. However, I think that if the student does not believe in them self, the teacher does not really have an obligation to fix that. The teacher's main job is to help them be a better musician. Motivation is good, but the music teacher is not a therapist.
"I understand part of teaching a student is preparing them for whats out there, though is telling a student that they wont make it as a performer dooming them for failure regardless of how ever many years of experience they still have ahead of them?
Sometimes that is true, but sometimes being told that can motivate the student to work harder. It can be a kind of "tough love" way to say "you are not working at this enough" In my personal experience I have said to students that were going to competitions, "If you only practice 15-25 minutes per day, you should not bother entering." Even in that case, I make the point that the fault is not with the student, but only in their practice schedule. I think there are only very, very few cases in which a teacher should, or even can, make a statement that the student, in and of themselves, is incapable of their goals.
"was the teacher out of line in saying that a student wont become a performer? What are your thoughts on this?
Not knowing the whole situation, I would say that it seems that the teacher was out of line.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-07-27 07:51
Although I don't know all the details of your girlfriends achievements and background so far, it does sound as though the teacher was rather tactless and hard-hearted. Even if the teacher thinks that the student is unlikely to get into a performing career, I think it's being very uncaring to just say "You'll never make it" - unless the student is persisting on this route at a very late stage. Something more like "Well, if that's what you want to do, you have got to work very hard, especially on X, Y and Z (whatever the student's particular bugbears may be)."
Ultimately, though, whatever one's career goals may be, good playing is good playing and and that is what a teacher should be teaching. If this incident has driven something of a wedge between teacher and student, what are the options for changing to a different teacher who may have a more sympathetic and supportive approach?
Vanessa.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2009-07-27 10:29
Alessandro Carbonare was told by one of his early teachers that he wouldn't amount to anything... this teacher was certainly proved wrong!
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2009-07-27 10:30
I can't help but ask myself is your girlfriend going to work harder now, or change teacher or quit the clarinet?
Anything but the first option just confirms what the teacher has said. In my opinion.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-07-27 11:47
As a former teacher of command control procedures for aircrews and later, mostly middle school students in any subject, I think this instructor was tactless. The last thing I would ever want to do as a teacher is discourage a student from study. There are ways to get a point across that motivate and encourage students to try harder. Crushing hope in a student is inexcusable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-07-27 12:30
There's a massive chain of pubs/restaurants in the UK called JD Wetherspoon. Story goes that the guy who owns them named them after a teacher of his who told him he'd never amount to anything... :-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-27 12:30
That happened to me when I was in college. The clarinet teacher at Aspen, Earl Bates, told me I didn't have what it took to be a professional player even though I was already going for a performance degree. At the time I was looking to be a woodwind doubler. When I got home I sold my sax and flute and bought a bass and Eb clarinet and doubled my clarinet practice time. In hindsight it was the best thing that ever happened to me, other than falling in love with orchestra music after my summer at Aspen. He could have been more tactful but it just made me angry but also opened my eyes to what I needed to do. I went from practicing clarinet an hour a day in high school to two hours a day my first year in college to 3-4 hours a day after that summer. I also practiced bass and Eb several hours each week as well, instead of sax and flute.
I think a responsible teacher should let a student know at some point if they at least have a chance to become a professional so they don't spend a fortune and 4-5 years of their life pursuing something that's simply not attainable but there's a tactful way of doing it along with encouragement and honesty. It also depends on how advanced the student is and how old they are. I've often told students in college that if they don't practice a lot more they can't become competitive and also suggested they do a double degree or at least a minor to full back on. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-07-27 14:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2009-07-27 13:04
It's hard when an authority-figure tells us that it's not OK to love what we love or dream what we dream. I can feel your partner's pain. But stories like this are legion.
I can't tell you how many times various of my musician friends have told me of the pain they felt upon being discouraged by a music teacher -- tactfully or not -- from pursuing further musical involvement.
I even recall one time when I, as the teacher, privately held the opinion that a particular youngster (a relative, 12 years old and in the very beginning stages of learning) was musically hopeless. However, I kept that opinion to myself.
That particular relative, now in his early 40s, has gone on to a very respectable career as a performing musician, supporting himself, his family, and his band for the past 20 years with music alone. Go figure.
So, teachers are not always right. And in the end, it's not about them, anyway. It's about you.
The very best piece of advice I ever heard in regard to whether or not a person should pursue music came from a wise teacher at City College of San Francisco, where I learned most of my own music theory. After a particularly successful day in his class, I went to him and rather hopefully asked him if he thought I could have a career in music.
His answer, succinct and cryptic, was simply, "If you want to."
And that is, in my opinion, the long and short of it. Past a basic entry-level ability, it is one's own desire and determination that makes the difference. It's not about others driving or affirming you. It is about what you do.
Take heart!
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-07-27 13:21
>>My partner came to me in tears the other day after her teacher told her (not exact wording) that she wouldn't amount to anything because she wasn't good enough to be a performer. The teacher suggested she do pedagogy and become a teacher because thats the only other thing she could do with her music studies.
>>
Do we really know much about this situation? Maybe I'm parsing the language too closely, but I can't help seeing an enormous disconnection between "...her teacher told her (not exact wording) that she wouldn't amount to anything...." and "The teacher suggested ... she become a teacher...."
Becoming a teacher is so far removed from not amounting to anything that I'm wondering whether this distraught student came home and unintentionally exaggerated the severity of the teacher's condemnation. After all, the teacher is a teacher. Does this teacher feel that he or she doesn't amount to anything? Clearly not, if this person perceives not only a duty but a *competence* to pass judgment on students' futures.
I feel strongly that a teacher should give students realistic information, to the extent that such information is knowable. It's easy to agree on some obvious scenarios. If a student fails to practice and learn the basics, should the teacher engage in esteem-building happy talk? Of course not. That would be doing the student no favors at all. In that case, tough love will do the student much more good: "Start working, if you want to get anywhere."
But when the student does the work but just doesn't quite seem to measure up to what the world of professional music requires, I lean in the direction of telling the truth, in a civil manner. "You're never going to amount to anything" is not civil, IMHO, but then again we don't know that the teacher in question really said anything that brutal. I'm an amateur, from a family that includes many professional musicians. I'm grateful to teachers and relatives who encouraged me to make music and stick with it for personal pleasure -- but without false hopes that would have led to wasted years and ultimate failure.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-07-27 17:54
Many assumptions about what was actually said here and how it was said.
There are ways to tell students that your opinion is that, based on past performance, they shouldn't expect ever to perform at the level of a "professional." (I, myself, do it all the time.) The question is, was the message really couched in such strong language--was it that brutal?
Given the penchant of most people (especially the young) to hear what they want to hear, and for many people (especially the young) to blow things out of proportion, it's possible that the teacher wasn't uncivil at all, but that the student already was in conflict with the teacher or maybe venting her frustration by "killing the messenger."
Well, I don't know the facts in this particular case, it's true. But I've never personally known but one teacher who would suddenly become brutal with a student, and that teacher never kept students very long, and no longer teaches.
B.
Post Edited (2009-07-27 17:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-27 18:02
Fascinating thread. Rather than get into arcane discussions about what the teacher may have "meant" or what the intent was, I'd just say this:
The teacher hasn't taken away your partner's dream. Only SHE can do that.
"Wouldn't amount to ANYTHING?" "BECAUSE she wasn't good enough to be a performer"--notice the 2 parts to that sentence. Whether either of those parts is true, depends entirely on how your partner takes them. (I realize these may not be the teacher's words, but if you or your partner are making what he said into THAT kind of sentence, it's no longer about performing, it's about worth as a person, which maybe should not be part of the discussion at all.)
It's a ticklish area, because we invest so much in the experts we turn to for advice. Sometimes they're full of it, sometimes they're not. What does your PARTNER want? (She could "waste" a decade or so pursuing a living as a performing musician, and at the end of it either be one, or merely be greatly enriched in all sorts of musical and personal skills (not to mention friendships and associations), which she would then be eminently qualified to pass on to her students, IF she opts to teach. Win/win, yes?)
Here's an old saying I just made up: "Always aim for the stars...but be sure & pack a parachute." (i.e., always pursue your dreams, but always have a Plan B, whether it's teaching, or IT, or landscaping.)
Also, "you don't regret the things you DO--you regret the things you DON'T do." (Not original with me, probably read it here.)
Good luck to you & your partner!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: alpharettablue
Date: 2009-07-27 18:33
This reminds me of my college roommate who very much wanted to major in physics.
Six weeks into freshman year, after her first physics test she came home crying. She got a 16 (out of 100). She went to the professor and asked for suggestions on how to improve her performance. He told her "Go to the registrar and drop the course. There is no way that you can ever pass this course, let alone major in physics".
Well, after she had a good cry, Joan took it as a challenge. She stayed in the class and got a B+. She majored in physics and graduated phi beta kappa. She went on to medical school and is a reconstructive hand surgeon today.
I don't blame the professor. Sometimes it's kinder to be bluntly honest.
But he's just one person, you don't have to accept his judgment.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FDF
Date: 2009-07-27 18:38
2E,
Just to add a word or two to the already plentiful and useful advice you’ve been given, the teacher’s role is to enable students to reach their next level of education and capability. The student’s role is to learn. Breakthroughs often happen at unexpected moments, so teachers must have patience and also question their own methods, but not blame the student for lack of success, if the student is making an honest effort to learn. Your partner should ask herself why the teacher thinks she’s not good enough to be a performer. Does the teacher think she lacks musicianship, talent, work ethic, drive, or some other quality that would cause her to fail? Once the problem is understood, efforts can be made to improve. The important question to be asked from this brouhaha is what can the clarinet student learn?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-07-27 22:49
Sometimes it can be a difficult decision for a teacher when he or she is asked about following a course of studies for a profession. If a student has been playing the instrument for several years and still can't keep it on pitch or get through a simple passage without errors and blue notes, the teacher may need to have a talk with the student if the student has hopes of making a living in that field. Nevertheless, the talk should be done kindly and with as much consideration for the student's feelings as possible. Even someone who is tone deaf may still have the sensitive soul of an artist, and there's no excuse for using words that will crush the person.
There are also students who take a while to get up to speed or who simply are on the wrong instrument. I'd love to play the oboe, but I have huge hands (I can span an octave and a fifth on the piano) and just can't squeeze them in to play the notes well. In fact, they're a bit large even for my bassoon, but that's solved with a left-hand palm/finger rest. The point is, before deciding a student doesn't have what it takes, it might also be worthwhile to discuss a different instrument. The horn that catches our fancy isn't always the one best suited for our physique.
In either case, a student who desires to play and enjoys it should be encouraged to stick with it and enjoy himself regardless of talent. According to a number of sources, Albert Einstein was both a dedicated student of the violin who practiced all his life, and a horrible violinist. Even so, it brought him pleasure and he stayed with it. An amateur should play for his own enjoyment; not that of others. In such a case, the teacher's job is to help him as he strives to improve and to encourage him.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-07-27 23:09
I think that students need an occasional reality check and it's the teachers job to give it to them.
Not in a harsh, or demeaning way, but in a realistic and motivating way.
If the student wants to be a performance major but is only willing to practice 1/2 of what they need to do. If they are working inefficiently, or not paying enough attention to detail (various aspects of playing), etc then it's the teachers job to let them know.
The spirit should never be crushed though.
A great teacher will do more than just 'teach the instrument'.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: haberc
Date: 2009-07-29 00:42
For what it's worth: When I was in my mid thirties I asked my saxophone teacher should I go back to school and major in music. My teacher told me I was too old. However another person I knew in music, Richard Davis, the bass player, said to me, "You haven't done it yet, have you?"
And I went to school and had my senior recital on my 40th birthday.
You're going to hear many opinions and judgments, all your life long.
Listen to your heart. I went to school and enjoyed a late career in music performance and teaching. Now I'm 67 and play every day and I bless every opinion I've asked for and received.
Ultimately, listen and trust yourself. You know.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-29 02:52
I did have an unfortunate experience once as a teacher. I had a college student that I felt wasn't working hard enough and even though I thought I was being encouraging I often told her that she had to work much harder or she wouldn't be competitive when she graduates. I had no idea that she always got upset after her lesson and I found out years later that she cried after every lesson. After three years she changed teachers but really didn't improve much that last year with the other teacher. I don't think she was motivated enough. I never really knew if she was practicing 3-4 hours a day as I told her she needed to or if she simply didn't have the talent. I suspect it was a combination of both but I really felt terrible when I found out how upset I made her. It's very difficult to get a student to understand that if they don't work very hard they don't stand a chance to make it in the classical music field because it's so competitive. One of my favorite sayings is that there are more advanced students, like at Curtis, that are practicing more than you so you have to work harder to catch up and surpass them. I'm amazed at how many students don't understand that in our conservatories today. But then again, there are many that do understand it. I've had students that I didn't ever have to suggest they have to practice more. It's not fair to the student to let them think they're good enough and working hard enough to make it when they're not. I always tried to be tactful, but maybe sometimes I wasn't without realizing it. You can only motivate a student so much. ESP
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2009-07-29 07:05
Hey everyone,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses, they've been most helpful.
I understand the details of the situation may have been a little hazy, I'm only going off what my partner had passed on to me (which may or may not have been exaggerated).
It's very interesting to hear stories of this happening to others who have then defied their teachers criticism to become professional musicians.
I guess when we're a student, we don't realise how difficult it is to be a teacher. To push us to our limits in our own best interests whilst remaining positive and inspiring. Similarly, when we're a teacher, we don't realise how difficult it is to be a student! Indeed an interesting balance, feel free to contribute more stories if you have them
Thanks 
2E
Post Edited (2009-07-29 07:07)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2009-07-29 09:44
Perhaps your girlfriend should ask the teacher why he/she thinks this? And if she really wants to be a performer, what she has to do.
I see your point about a teacher being there to further a student's abilities, but the reality is, a university degree is a big deal. People go to university to become experts in their field, and its the responsibility of teachers to maintain standards. And particularly at a conservatoire-type institution.
But, I think its really worth asking why these things were said.
Post Edited (2009-07-29 17:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-07-29 12:56
I would prefer a teacher telling me the honest truth. I dont' see anything wrong at all with a teacher telling a student they're not good enough to become a professional. That teachers opinion, based on the student's current ability, and hopefully based on that student's rate of musical growth, is that the student will not be able to maintain a living where their sole income is music. It doesn't mean you should give up music, but maybe look at it more as a hobby.
Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will NEVER be able to maintain a living based on music. Only that at this point in time, with whatever growth has happened, you can't do it. Maybe that student will be able to further apply themself and do better in the future and pull it off. Or maybe they'll find an awesome ensemble and make some money on the side doing what they love, but it'll be supplemental income.
At any rate, I would rather know where I should be focusing my efforts, or at least know that my efforts up to date haven't been enough rather than continue at my current rate of progress, be told I can make it, and fail.
Alexi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2009-07-29 14:52
Like other posters I would suggest that she have a proper calm talk with the teacher to see what is actually meant. If she has dreams of being a solo performer and simply doesn't have the talent no matter how hard she works then it is best to know now. However, if she is capable of making a living through music, perhaps as a teacher or therapist IF she works harder than she is currently doing then that is where she needs to focus if those are options which appeal. Basically it is about establishing realistic options and deciding which ones appeal. If it is a solo career and nothing else will do then transfer to another teacher might be needed if this one really thinks she can't do it regardless of extra work. If what she wants is to be the best she can be and have fun in music for the rest of her life, but for it not to necessarily be her income earner then the teacher needs to understand that and the student needs to make sure that some other income scheme is underway, i.e. also be studying engineering or dress making or law. As someone who gave up music after highschool after realising how much better I would need to be to do it 'seriously' I then came back to it nearly a decade later after realising that as an adult there were loads of fun places to play that actually didn't care if you are not wonderful. I met a violinist recently who was good enough to be professional (still is) but decided to move somewhere where there was a really active amatuer scene as well as a career opportunity in her other field. In this way she has always been able to play in quality ensembles but has been able to reserve music as the fun and social part of life and remove it from the pressure which would be caused by it being the bread winner.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2009-07-29 16:21
Did she ask him a straight question? That could explain a straight answer. (I don't really believe the teacher said "you won't amount to anything" - that really would be rude)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: chipper
Date: 2009-07-29 18:23
Ignore the teacher. Some 40 years ago I had both art and music teachers tell me to hang it up. I did and went into huntin' fishin' and construction work. None of that pansey art and music for me. Only manley man stuff for me. Then in my late 40s I pick up ceramics and the clarinet. Although I still work in construction management for money my real life is with art and music.
There are many ways to the top of the mountian and this particular teacher is obviously not your friend's Sherpa. She should try a different guide.
Peace
C
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-07-29 18:44
A good freind of mine in high school as a trumpeter was told he would never amount to anything. He later became Principal of the Halle Orchestra and a guest Principal of the London Philharmonic. Teachers can be real knobs sometimes.
I will also add there are alot of teachers who are only teachers because they have nothing else to do. I will also add there are alot of performers who should never teach
.... There are alot of hard harsh people out there....that might be another thread.
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-07-29 18:47)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-07-29 19:09
If the teacher told the student "you are not good enough" they are strangers! We can't tell people who are important to us :you are not good.
I find that very often (too often, unfortunatly), teachers don't know how much can be done with a student and they give up or blam the student.
Tell your friend to go to another teacher!
Sarah
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2009-07-29 20:15
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
<<I find that very often (too often, unfortunatly), teachers don't know how much can be done with a student and they give up or blam the student.>>
Very true! The important thing is not to give up on yourself.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-07-29 21:19
I think the bigger problem at hand is the obsession with landing a paying orchestral gig, as if it's the only thing a performer can aspire to. There are lots of possibilities out there, though, unlike many other professions, you have to make a lot of them yourself. To me, someone saying I'm not good enough to be a professional orchestral clarinetist would have a similar impact to someone saying a med student is not good enough at medicine to be a brain surgeon.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2009-07-30 15:06
I don't think the medicine comparison is valid. If there were as many doctors as far from the top of the profession as there were music graduates, I would start self-administering.
I agree with what you are saying about the close-mindedness relating to orchestral playing (and that close-mindedness may take on a different form in the states from Europe or Australia). Though, I think this can be used as a very airy-fairy argument that anyone can make it (in some sort of fashion) regardless of their standard when they graduate. I know thats not what you meant, but I really think (and I'm sure I'm not alone) that there are far too many music graduates already.
I think if someone isn't doing well, this information probably shouldn't come first from the teacher. There should be all sorts of other signs - e.g. bad marks in performance and technical exams, low placements in orchestras and ensembles etc. and probably over a considerable period of time (say 2-3 years). If the institution is running properly with consistent application of standards, the message should be pretty clear before the teacher has to open his/her mouth.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-07-30 18:50
You would think these indications would show themselves, but they often don't, whether because someone overestimates their own skill, the school has low standards, or the player is a big fish in a small pond.
I'd say there are far too many music graduates who have no idea what they can do with music. Public appreciation of music, I think, has the potential to be a lot more than we give it credit for. However, public appreciation of and capacity for large concert-hall-style orchestral endeavors, I think, quickly plateaus, and the format is so costly that I would consider it quite foolish to hedge the bets of thousands of musical careers on it.
Watching a program like America's Got Talent, the occasional high-quality act from our neck of the woods tends to be VERY well received, and treated as if it is some totally unique phenomenon, when I've seen dozens like it in school. It's all a matter of presentation and context, which today's music graduates are woefully unskilled at. We're practically trained to accept that we are maintaining some lost art that people should support with large donations for the betterment of mankind, rather than creating something vital, energetic, and relevant.
My medical analogy was a poor one... perhaps more apt would be a computer science student being told that they'll never work for Microsoft. To which the response might be, "Oh, I'm not good enough for that? That's cool, there's still plenty of way interesting, awesome stuff I can do. Dunno if I would have wanted to work for them anyways. How is this even relevant?"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-07-30 19:17
EEBaum wrote:
> My medical analogy was a poor one... perhaps more apt would be
> a computer science student being told that they'll never work
> for Microsoft. To which the response might be, "Oh, I'm not
> good enough for that? "
Or - in many circles - the student would look at the teacher and say "Thanks!"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2009-07-30 19:22
Yeah, I completely agree - I think there's a lack of balance in the training, aimed at making better auditionees rather than better musicians.
But maybe that discussion is for another post.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2009-07-31 13:53
I think teachers should keep on encouraging students, and making them think there is money and a "good living" in music. They should do this totally through their Bachelors degree. Or until they have $60,000 in student loans. At which point there really won't be any jobs available that will pay the interest on their student loans. Then they will be forced to go get a master's degree to avoid having to service their loans adding another $20k to their balance. So maybe in 6 years these students will have a Master's degree and $80k worth of debt, and if there were jobs available they still won't be good enough to get one.
The only people who benefit in this paradigm are university teachers who have insured a cadre of grad students and have filled their studio quota for the year.
If your partner was lucky enough to get a teacher who was honest enough to actually tell her that " those pants really do make your butt look big" thank the teacher and listen. Then ask " what would I have to do to get to that level", then decide if it's worth it or possible.
I had a teacher as recently as 7 years ago tell me, that I had lots of technique but I sound like I had been playing in an army band for 20 years. HE WAS RIGHT! He then showed me what to do to change the results I was getting. Thanks Dr. Cecil Gold. I could have walked out the door after being "insulted" but when I heard the way he played I knew, that he knew some stuff that I didn't. I took the engine apart dissected my tone production changed what and who I listened to and basically changed my approach to playing the clarinet.
In life and clarinet playing, it's what you learn after you know it all that really counts.
Tom Puwalski, author of "The Clarinetists Guide to Klezmer", Clarinetist with "The Atonement Klezmer Band" former clarinet soloist with The U.S. Army Field Band and a proud Leblanc, Rico performing artist.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-07-31 19:16
Tom Puwalski wrote:
>
> I had a teacher as recently as 7 years ago tell me, that I had
> lots of technique but I sound like I had been playing in an
> army band for 20 years. HE WAS RIGHT! He then showed me what
> to do to change the results I was getting. Thanks Dr. Cecil
> Gold. I could have walked out the door after being "insulted"
> but when I heard the way he played I knew, that he knew some
> stuff that I didn't. I took the engine apart dissected my tone
> production changed what and who I listened to and basically
> changed my approach to playing the clarinet.
>
The difference here is that Dr. Gold didn't tell you that you were a failure or that you didn't have what it took. Rather, he told you, here's what you're doing and here's what you ought to change. That's constructive criticism designed to help a person.
Telling someone that he or she just lacks talent or ability doesn't help the person to change, and it may not be valid or accurate. As a published author, you've dealt with rejections from publishers, as have I, and they don't have a very good track record in recognizing talent. (Proust's "Remembrance of Things Past" was rejected so many times that he finally self-published it...) I'm not sure that music teachers do a whole lot better in predicting the success of their students. Heck, I had a violin teacher tell me that I'd do a lot better taking up bricklaying, and I gave up music for several years. Finally started with clarinet in the 8th grade and now play a dozen or so instruments as well as singing, but had I listened to him, I'd have missed a lot of enjoyment over the years.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-07-31 23:24
I think a great teacher must impart in the student desire to learn and a balanced way of thinking.
I am not just talking about clarinet but any musical instrument or voice. The goal is not to be a pro etc,..but to realize one's full potential. If someone so desires this then who is a teacher to crap on this...? Do you think Heifitz was only every worried about being a soloist..no he was worried about making music as well as he could.
Being honest for a teacher is important. Many fine teachers give their students over to others. Rather than sit and insult a person this way is better.
There is also the wonderful story of Fritz Reiner telling Leonard Bernstein(then studying at Curtis in Reiner's class) he was "(*++_O*".
Lets say it was a reference that is related to excretions.
We all know Mr. Reiner was wrong on that one.
I also know that a teacher can do alot more than just sit and get paid...they must also communicate what the wonder of music is about. They also have to find every means at their disposal to put across the elements that go into the instrument they are trying to teach. There are also alot of people out there who are never going to be musicians..but having a teacher in their way is not going to help the world of classical art music in the age of the digital download.
I also believe in setting objectives that are reasonable.
One of Fritz Kreisler's teachers told him he was a moron and he would be better off shining shoes.
Here a good one on Heifitz
http://my.voyager.net/~duffie/hftz.html
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-08-01 00:47)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-01 00:25
Regardless of what we think should be done the fact is that there just aren't nearly enough jobs in the classical clarinet job market as there are players desiring them. It's not like there are 3 players for every 2 jobs, it's more like there are 50- 100 players for 1 job. That doesn't mean a teacher can't be more tactful but it does mean that we all need to be more honest with our students. We either tell them how hard they have to work to even stand a small chance of making a living in music, give them more ideas how to do that or let them know that they probably won't make it. BUT, we need to be tactful. ESP
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-08-01 15:10
Let's also not forget the composing competition, judged Brahms, that Mahler entered, and in which Brahms noted that Mahler was terrible and would never amount to anything.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-08-01 17:14
Ed Palanker said:
It's not like there are 3 players for every 2 jobs, it's more like there are 50- 100 players for 1 job.
These days, there are gazillions of warm bodies applying for one job at McDonalds. The odds are in the musical instrument player's favor.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clariniano
Date: 2009-08-02 00:22
I've had students tell me they're glad I told them the truth about their playing...but I've had a few that didn't care and probably wanted to hear that they were good players (even though they played terribly)...
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2009-08-03 02:20
Not everyone gets it right all the time.
When I was auditioning for schools after 3 very sucessful years oh HS ( in alabama) and had already been accepted at Oberlin with a nice scholarship when I auditioned for Peabody. It did not go well. The letter I was sent was the most insulting item I have EVER recieved stating I neither posses the ability or the potential to be a perfomance major.
I live solely on the proceeds of my classical music career and support my family doing nothing but playing my clarinet. I worked hard very very hard.
So keep oinions at what they are... Opinions.
Your teacher is there to help you, but in reality not everyone can do this and this alone. It is not incorrect to let a student know they are not advancing enough, but it is difficult to predict who will work the hardest or longest and have the tenacity and luck to make it.
You are the only person who will decide your fate. If you will not be happy doing something other than music, that is your answer.
Good luck and keep up the good fight.
Robert Hoit
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2009-08-04 03:53
Well, I've always worked hard. I put in crazy practice hours at Oberlin and insane hours at Rotterdam's conservatory. I also didn't limit myself with geographical concerns. I've known many great unemployed musicians that are unemployed because they won't move from a certain geographical region.
Learn your harmony clarinets and be ok at saxophone to really help your real world chances. An orchestral or college teaching career are not easy things to come by these days. Be open minded and persistant, with a little luck you'll do fine.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-08-06 00:03
Good point..I also play the Reform Boehm clarinet and always think clarinet playing of any real estimable quality must go beyond brand names etc. I also started out on the Reform Boehm so i still have a soft spot for Dutch players especaily. I also play jazz and pop stuff too so being a classical orchestral player as well I think too many players are just too narrow in scope.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: wardd
Date: 2009-08-07 21:57
Depending on the nature of the criticism, it might be time to change the teacher. What does the teacher mean by "performer"? There are many hundreds of clarinetists that have not won a major orchestra seat but are still excellent performers. I think the teach must be honest, but not discouraging. I wanted to do a recital once, and the teacher suggested I shouldn't because I wouldn't be able to make money. !? Of course I wasn't planning to do it to make money. I moved on. Another teacher wouldn't advise me on the Copland concerto saying something like "you're never going to perform this; why work on it?" My time with him was so short, I don't even remember who it was.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-08-07 22:59
If a student has been a serious player, over the years they have participated in auditions, ensembles, orchestras... a variety of music experiences where there are competitions for positions. They should pretty much know how they stack up against other musicians in the area and can extrapolate how they will compare on a broader stage. At some point the vast majority of musicians need to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to pursue further study with the understanding that they are really pursuing a passion and not a vocation.
I have sent two kids through college and another who is starting this year. The oldest was a very good player in a good university studio and he ended up in law school. The second was a very fine musician who played in the university wind ensemble but was not a music major. The third played music in high school and had talent but lacked the fire.
Having the "not good enough talk" is a fair conversation. It is not demeaning or mean spirited. I think it is irresponsible to not talk about it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2009-08-10 02:31
As far as the tact thing goes, I think that a lot of folks here have made the same comments that I normally would.
I do agree that teachers are often wrong in saying things like this...and I've been well-rewarded for holding my tongue in a few instances. Sometime, I'd like to discuss telling parents that their child's disability is probably a fatal one for the goals they desire.
My advice to 2E's girlfriend is this. If you don't like your diagnosis, get a second opinion. Maybe you get someone who's more on your wavelength. Or, you might get the same opinion again....and in that case I would listen very carefully.
I also agree with other posters that the advice to go into pedagogy shouldn't be much of an insult. I think that most of us here take our teaching seriously enough that we wouldn't encourage an untalented or incompetent player to become a private clarinet teacher.
The bottom line is that college clarinet training has a razor-thin range of practical applications, and the competition in that realm is beyond belief. When you look at the cost of college today, it's a shame to let a student think that their training is going to take them places that their practice and talent won't go.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: justme
Date: 2009-08-28 23:56
I see this as wrong!
As a teacher, isn't it your job to ENCOURAGE and teach your student to be the best that they can be?
If you tell a student that he'll "never be any good," etc; Doesn't this totally discourage a great many people of pursuing their desires?
Some may cop an attitude of " I'll show him" and actually improve greatly, whereas others will take this as a "reality check" that they will never be any good on said instrument and just give it up, being as the person telling them this is far more experienced and a better player than they are, so they should "know what they're talking about."
I believe that a real teacher should ENCOURAGE and teach their student to be the best that they can be. If the student is the worst clarinet player that they have ever heard, it should make no difference whatsoever. In fact, they should do more to help and encourage that student all the more...
Just me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lyntc10
Date: 2009-09-02 02:11
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to side with the teacher here. 17-21 really isn't that young anymore, she should be able to take disappointment by now, and if she can't then, she needs to learn how to ASAP. I mean, we're talking about playing professionally, not just first chair in your high school band. It's better that the teacher tell her sooner than later so at least that way, she has time to make other career plans. You say that the teacher said "wouldn't amount to anything because she wasn't good enough to be a performer." Well, by "anything" here, the teacher obviously meant a performer. She's not saying that she can't continue to play. It's just that, she won't ever play professionally. I mean, it's not as if the teacher was like, "Just stop clarinet. You are damaging people's ears." It's just that, she's not good enough to be a professional.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CK
Date: 2009-09-02 04:11
I would have to agree with Ed Planker. If you have a student that you
have encouraged, told what to work to achieve and the student either
does not cut it or just does not have enough talent. I believe you will be doing the student a great injustice if you do not tactfully tell them the truth,
especially if they want to make a living in the classical world. The music schools
in the US have thousands of students that graduate with a DMA in Clarinet.
So where are they going to make a living. Teaching and playing is possible
A full time Symphony position is unlikely Especially these days.
On the other hand if a student is a good professional Clarinetist who also
doubles on sax, Flute, Piccolo or Oboe They will have a myriad of possibilities
from local symphonies, Broadway shows, Club Dates from conventions to
weddings. In my career I have played in symphony orchestras, Jazz Groups,
Shows, Conventions as well as teaching Clarinet at the College level. In this
way I have always made a living playing, contracting , conducting as well
as having a music production company. The more adaptable you are in varied
musical genre's the better off one can be.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-02 09:22
Justme- "As a teacher, isn't it your job to ENCOURAGE and teach your student to be the best that they can be?"
Yes, it is. The emphasis is on the term "the best that they can be" and not "the best". They should strive for their dreams, but they should know that they are not all going to make it to a full paying famous orchestra position. Even fewer are going to make it as full time soloists/chamber musicians.
Even the graduates of the best conservatories enter the profession at a rate far less than 50%.
I see it as crewel for a teacher to make all their students believe that they will make it big.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-02 12:44
"The music schools in the US have thousands of students that graduate with a DMA in Clarinet."
Thousands? With a DMA? If so, almost no one is reporting their final recitals to The Clarinet.
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-02 16:18
In some situations, this poster might say it best, sorry to say.
http://www.despair.com/potential.html
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-09-02 17:06
Just because you're not the next Ricardo Morales, doesn't mean you can't have a rewarding life and an excellent career. I thank heavens I had the education I did. Did I ever have a chance of playing as well as, say Lawrie Bloom or John Yeh? No, probably not, I am just not that talented. However, I have had a wonderful life in music and have a rewarding career. Its has taken some creativity to get here, and some struggle, but also a lot of fun and enjoyment.
So - my advice - absolutely study music if you love it. College is not meant to be vocational training! Listen to your teachers, but follow your heart and your interests.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-09-03 19:05
Years ago I remember David Weber at a masterclass talking about playing under Toscannini..one morning Toscannini was really unhappy about ensemble(as usual) and then screamed at the orchestra "your not good enough for Beethoven"...
He then went on one his mad rants which according to Mr. Weber was in Italian with alot of italian swear words.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-09-04 09:37
> The emphasis is on the term "the best that they can be" and not "the best"
'The Best' is exactly what you want to be if you understand it as meaning 'among the best', or 'contributing to the best'.
Music is a social activity.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-04 12:36
"'The Best' is exactly what you want to be if you understand it as meaning 'among the best', or 'contributing to the best'."
To clarify, if a teacher make all his students think that they are walking gold and they WILL make it into a full time pro orchestra OR be a soloist touring the world, then that teacher has done the students a dis-service.
There are teachers like that.
Students should be told of what they really have to do to achieve their goals.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: justme
Date: 2009-09-04 14:06
Bassie said: " The emphasis is on the term "the best that they can be" and not "the best.
Exactly!
Your one of the few that got the meaning.
Also, why do people assume that all clarinet players want to play in a
symphony orchestra? Many players prefer Jazz, Klezmer, or other styles.
Some may not even like classical music at all.
There also are some that may like classical music as well as other styles.
Take the Klezmer Group : The Clarinet Gang. Most of them are in or have been in major symphony orchestras and also play in their Klezmer Group. Just check out their web site and look at their profile bios, you may be surprised: http://www.clarinetgang.com/ .
There are a lot of good players out there that have no interest in playing in a symphony and are making a living playing what they prefer.
So I would hope that they would be encouraged to just improve and meet their potential . It's one thing to be honest enough to tell them that you think that they will never play in a symphony orchestra ( If that is even their desire), it's another to discourage them into just giving up...
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stacyc
Date: 2009-09-04 23:52
This is an interesting topic because my son just started band in 5th grade and has decided to play the clarinet also. This decision was his and I made sure that it was something he wanted to do and not just because I play also, but here is what gets me.
We allow our children to be in band and hope they excel and be the "best they can be" But I see a trend in trying to take a child and turn them into an instant prodigy of the instrument that they chose. If they dont go at the pace the instructor thinks they should, then the instructor informs them "they arent good enough" and in my way of viewing things, this is wrong.
Encouragement is the most important thing, Discouragement may cause the child to completely drop the instrument when even though they may never play professionally, they would still have a love to play and a good "healthy" past time. Music helps to portray emotion and feelings and no matter how good or "bad" one may play, that is his or her form of expression and who are we to take that away. A little constructive criticism and working with the child to "figure out the problem" would've probably been the best way to approached the "not good enough" child.
~~Been playing clarinet 17yrs and counting, now playing with the local community orchestra and now my son has taken on the tradition and I couldn't be more proud!~~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-09-05 00:20
That's a terrible trend. There are plenty of students with average talent who will be great patrons of the arts later on. They shouldn't be crushed by overbearing attitudes. Not everyone will be great, but everyone should enjoy their musical journey.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2009-09-05 00:38
Thank you all for your responses, they are very interesting and provide alot of food for thought.
Telling a student that they're not good enough when they've just started band in grade 5 is very harsh indeed. Though, at a later stage in musical development (as in, just about to leave a conservatoire and thinking about a professional career) it is perhaps more appropriate when done tactfully
The latest on the current situation with my partner is as follows ...
continuing with the current teacher
putting in more hard work in the practise room
going to show her who's boss and make the big time regardless of what it takes :p
(thats the plan at least anyway)
Many thanks for sharing your stories,
2E
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
