 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2009-07-20 19:03
I have a clarinet with some key forces that seem excessive (>200 grams to open), and want to have the springs adjusted and/or replaced by someone who is not local. I'm looking for advice from those who do this work, and I want to know how to clearly explain what I want in a way that is reasonable and clear.
First, I'm talking about a bass clarinet that I would like to have a light touch on the keys. Please let me know if these are reasonable. My preferences are:
1. On the normally closed keys, only enough force so that they don't leak or vibrate on loud passages
2. On the normally open keys, only enough force so that the opening time is quick enough to not interfere with fast passages
3. As much uniformity within key groupings (e.g. right or left 1-2-3 fingers, and within pinky finger clusters) as possible.
If I send the instrument away, is it enough to say that (1, 2 and 3 above), or can/should I say more, e.g. a range of (max/min) forces on the pad covering each normally closed tone hole?
Several of the springs seem to be too thick/stiff to be adjusted for a reasonable pressure throughout the range of key travel. That is, I fear that if the thick spring (for normally closed key) is adjusted for low force with the key released (hole closed), as I press down the force will rapidly increase, in contrast to changing the spring to a thinner one (my preference) which would give a much less increase (and a more reasonable) in force as the key is depressed. Or am I wrong here? Is it reasonable to request that a spring be changed or modified (e.g. ground down to be less stiff) rather than just be bent?
I have repadded, replaced springs and adjusted very used Bb and Bass clarinets (enough to really respect you who do this professionally), but I want to have someone else do it, and I don't want either party to be needlessly unhappy or frustrated.
Thanks for any suggestions or guidance here.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-07-20 19:25
If the technician is good enough, they won't need to be told these things. You've basically described a typical well-adjusted instrument. Sadly, some technicians might need to be told these things, at which point I'd find a new tech. If you send an instrument in (and if you don't haggle to the end of them doing less work) and it isn't returned as you just described, I'd call it a poor repair job.
Bass clarinets are tricky beasts. Be sure to send it to someone with a reputation as a good bass tech. I know of otherwise excellent woodwind techs who aren't particularly keen on bass work, and as a result don't do as good a job.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-07-20 21:25
Alex said:
"If the technician is good enough, they won't need to be told these things. You've basically described a typical well-adjusted instrument."
Alex, I respectfully disagree. There is a wide variety of preferences out there, from people who want very tight springs to those who want feather-like touch. In my opinion, it is necessary to let the technician know exactly what you want. Otherwise, they will adjust the spring tension to their own preference, which might be much different than your own.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-21 03:51
You are generally right about thick springs not feeling very good. It's not just their thickness, it's thickness comapred with length. A spring that is short compared with its thickness usually won't feel great because the tension increases a lot during its movement. This is a lot of times described by players as slow action, in spite of the springs not being weak.
However some of the things you want are not 100% possible. For example uniformity of springs in one area. It is impossible to have two keys feel exactly the same when one of them also moves the other, while the other moves alone. To give an extreme example, the right hand pinky keys of low F and low D (on low C bass clarinets). On bass clarinets where the D/G key operates the double automatic reg system, it will almost never feel exactly the same as lower stack first and second keys.
For regular keys, sometimes you can't improve the feel by using a thinner spring unless you go to extreme of correcting other things e.g. changing the position of the spring cradle. Also for linkaged keys/levers the feel can also be affected by the linkage, not just the spring. This could mean it's not possible to have a good feel for the keys unless you significantly modify the linkage, and this is not only on cheap instruments. I recently saw very badly designed linkages on a $6,000 saxophone and $8,000 bass clarinet...... they had to be modified to give a good feel. Sometimes it is not so severe and just using better materials can help a lot.
However, generally speaking, it's usually possible to considerably improve the spring action of an instrument even without going into the drastic repairs I mentioned.
Post Edited (2009-07-21 14:02)
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Author: beantown_Bb
Date: 2009-07-21 11:35
I know you said you want someone "not local," but have you looked into having Emilio at Rayburn's in Boston fix you up? He's a master tech, and you;ll have the advantage of being able to go down, play test it after the tune up and tell him specifically that you want this one a little lighter, this one a little tighter, and so on.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-07-22 17:04
I agree with beantown about finding someone at least "close" to local so that the repairperson could tweak it to your personal standards at the end of the process...
However, I'm thinking about the way you explained what you want, and I fear that you might chase away the best of the repairpeople. (I think your fears about it becoming too frustrating and unhappy are well-founded.)
Example: If I were repairing an instrument, but knew that the customer was asking for something so subjective...it might lead me to believe that no matter how perfectly I performed the task, that the player might continually nit-pick until I was so frustrated that I had to throw my hands in the air and refund the price of my work - leaving me frustrated, and leaving the customer unhappy. (Not good for business either way) If I'm a really good repairman, I'd already have a full list of professional clients with trust in my craft, and I don't know that I'd agree to take on that risk. (Please understand that I'm not implying YOU would nit-pick or similar...just that it might be a fear of a repairperson approaching your situation).
As beantown said, I think your best bet would be to find a great repairperson that you could travel to for the fine tuning portion at the end...that surely would make the repairperson more comfortable with the transaction. But I wouldn't expect to receive much sympathy from him/her if you got home and decided you didn't like the way it was adjusted!! <grin> (I do think most repairmen would require that you be there for final tuning for something so specific anyway).
Something else you've probably already considered...things like: I have two clarinets perfectly set for #4 or #5 reeds on a Pyne mouthpiece. They play beautifully, and the springs are all perfect. However, if I change my mouthpiece to one of my other favorites, and continue to use the same reed(s), the springs are far too weak, and the keys begin to flutter. I have to move down to a #3 or #3 1/2 reed for that mouthpiece in order for the springs to be back in balance, and to avoid fluttering keys.
On the plus side, you really know what you want...on the down side, you really REALLY know what you want! <grin>
Best of luck to you in your search! I hope you end up with the perfect solution. I'd be interested to hear how things go, and how easy/hard the solution was to reach!
With Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2009-07-23 19:39
Thanks for the suggestions.
I want to send it away only because I bought it new from that source and such adjustment and customization is part of the purchase. Also, some 'adjustments' may be design issues. In at least one instance, I think a spring is much too thick (even though it is reasonably long) and needs to be replaced. Several other instances where there is more than one linkage between the finger and the pad with each link having its own spring, I think the cumulative tension is far more than necessary that at least temporarily I unhooked the 'redundant' spring and the key plays better (less conscious attention to apply more force) with no noticeable lag in release response.
As far as the tech not knowing what I want to achieve, I plan to note which keys/springs are already what I want (so that others can be similarly adjusted). I also plan to note a range of force (by weight) I am looking for on each key (or pad to open), and measure the present (unadjusted) force using some other standard (a nickel = 5.00 grams each). Again, my bottom line preferences are 1, 2 and 3 in my original posts, so that if the normally-closed key vibrates or leaks, then the tension is too light. I appreciate the statement that the G/D key will not feel the same as the first and second finger keys - yet I think in my case it can be made much closer in force and response.
I use a well-know mpc, but the problems also exist with the mpc supplied with the horn. Thanks for noting the association.
I fully appreciate the problem of subjective and ambiguous goals , and I will try to be clear and reasonable in expectation, and although I [think I] know what I want, I can be persuaded.
Thanks for the Emilio pointer.
One additional question relating to the life of a spring. I appreciate that a spring will bend or yield after a time so that it's initially set tension declines over time. But how long are springs good for without the metal fatiguing so that they cannot be readjusted (bent) to restore the force? Is this the reason too-strong springs are used?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-23 20:05
I will say this: If you're looking for very light action on a bass clarinet, you're asking for trouble down the line. You'll eventually (later if not sooner) have an instrument which leaks, which 'chokes up' or buzzes from backpressure blowing open the low Ab/Eb key, and/or a register mechanism which either sticks or won't keep the register vent(s) shut when they need to be shut.
If you're gonna play the bass, let me be rude and suggest that you work on improving your hand and finger strength rather than expect the instrument to have the feel of a flute.
I realize I'm grossly exaggerating here (and no insult intended, of course), I'm just making a point.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-24 01:06
I totally agree with Clarnibass and David.
You may get slight improvements, but what you seem to be seeking is an ideal that is not practical.
It's like asking for really light steering on a modern car, without having power steering.
And as Clarnibass points out, to correct inadequacies - extremely common - of spring design (largely length to diameter ratios), you may have to make quite major changes like moving spring cradles or even repositioning posts to get sufficient spring length. Because length is such an important factor, Good spring design interacts with many other aspects of mechanical design.
A good example of poor design is the very short, fat spring on the F#/C# key on Buffet clarinets. It has been like that for decades, and easy to design a LOT better, but they don't. It is a flag to say that Buffet does not currently have a good and effective engineer there. From evidence in recent saxes I'd say nor do Selmer and Yamaha.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2009-07-24 01:49
The responses that indicate that I may be asking *too much* for a variety of reasons is the info I'm looking for. But it may not be persuasive just because Buffet does it - is there a reason that the thick F#/C# spring is not replaced (by the player's tech) with a thinner one?
But I hadn't considered the 'power steering' option though....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-24 03:18
What you need is little servo units that move the keys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjONQNUU8Fg
Typically the problem is the length of a spring rather than the diameter. Simply reduce the diameter and it is likely to be too weak to do its job.
Reducing the diameter is not as simple as it may seem, especially if cosmetics are to be considered...
For security of the mounting, the hole in the post really does need to be pretty close to the diameter of the spring. So either a new hole needs to be drilled in a new, probably not ideal location the post, or the old hole drilled and filled with a bush which is re-drilled, or the post heated red hot to fill the old hole with silver-solder before re-drilling, or soldering the spring into a threaded bush which screws into an enlarged and threaded hole in the post, etc.
In the case of the Buffet clarinet F#/C# spring, I think it definitely needs to be longer. This key does need a fair bit of spring tension, as does any key that is normally closed. Another fault with this Buffet spring is that being inexplicably mounted on the key, it rubs (maybe not in all models) hard against the timber, wearing it to a state where the effective length of the spring is shorter, and compromising the action of the spring in other ways. A really silly concept in itself.
How on earth do they allow this to continue for decades? Incredible!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-24 21:54
Gordon- "or the post heated red hot to fill the old hole with silver-solder before re-drilling"
I had tried this once with tin/silver solder and I was not successful getting the solder into the hole. Is this easier done with silver solder? Or is there a trick to it?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-24 23:50
Seems to me that if you don't first get some solder FLUX into the hole, the solder itself will not flow into it. Gordon?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-25 00:22
Did you clean all corrosion and dirt from the hole before soldering? (Not so easy in a spring hole, without drilling it larger.) And did you use liquid flux to keep that surface tarnish-free during soldering? Solder will never stick to a dirty surface, no matter what solder.
Did you get the workpiece hot enough. (Flame required, to supply heat faster than it is being taken away by the heat-sink instrument body.)
BTW the low temp tin/silver alloys are stronger than lead solder, and good cosmetically for filling holes, but IMO they are not strong enough as a base for mounting springs in an oversized hole on a spring where there is a lot of spring tension.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-25 03:50
"And did you use liquid flux to keep that surface tarnish-free during soldering?"
I used water soluble dry flux.
"Did you get the workpiece hot enough."
I have done silver soldering and have made keys many times, but the solder would seem to melt just about everyplace except into the spring hole.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-25 15:48
But did you clean all corrosion and dirt from inside the hole before soldering?
Did you use a solder designed to run into small places?
Which solder did you use?
I have 95/5, which I would expect to work, with the Duzall flux that I use.
The 96/4 (4% silver) solder behaves like 63/37 tin/lead solder by flowing quickly with no plastic range, at 430 F. I would expect that to work.
The 94/6 (6% silver) alloy has a wide plastic range of 105 degrees which makes it behave similarly to 50/50. I'm not sure that would work unless heated quite a lot hotter than first melting.
I haven't heard of water-soluble dry flux for soldering at low temperatures. Are you by chance using the flux that you would use with higher temp silver solder, say 40% silver? If so, it is quite unsuitable. Use a good liquid flux of the sort that you would use for lead solder.
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