 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-08 16:54
Are they really a good thing? I mean the ones that follow the outer curve of the thumb ring (or plate on larger clarinets).
What I'm having the most trouble with on my Buffet basset horn where the speaker key is like an old Conn sax 8ve key (pointed on both sides and radiused on the underside to fit around the thumb button) is that I keep catching the pointed tip on the right side so the speaker mechanism doesn't close properly. I've never had this on clarinets with a normal shaped speaker key touch or on bass which is like the 8ve key on a modern sax.
But having the basset horn speaker key with the touch shaped in this way (like the old Conns) so there's more area of the touch around the top of the left thumb plate means I'm having to use more movement of the left thumb to be sure I release the speaker key rather than just nudging it as I would normally do.
I know the easy answer is to adapt my technique to accommodate this design, but I'm wondering if such a design really has any benefits. I'm tempted to reshape the speaker key touch into a more traditional manner.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-07-08 20:24
Do you mean that your thumb moves more side to side or "spins" rather than moving up and down (from the joint)?
I have just tried a soprano with one of these doohickeys (Selmer Privilege) and find the design to be amazingly comfortable, virtually disappearing under my thumb. Of course the size of the horn and the physical approach to stiking that key must be different for you than I but I can't get over how much better the application was vs. how the design looks.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-08 20:47
Okay, got a picture somewhere...
For some reason I can't bend back my thumb tip (can only stretch it 180°), I can't use its tip to operate the register key, I have to do it with the side, but having an ergonomic touchpiece like in my Marigaux is a great help.
If it bothers you, file the offending winglet down till you stop catching it.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-09 00:21
ChrisP- I would never adapt my technique to the instrument. This is one of the things that really bothers me. My hands can't change shape, so I have redesigned all my little finger keys. I have yet to meet anyone that says that they prefer the normal keys over my design.
As for the original question- I find "ergonomic" register keys on clarinet to be very uncomfortable. I prefer the teardrop.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-09 03:28
I've tried several clarinets with "ergonomic" register keys.
I really like the type on modern bass clarinets and saxophones (when they are on bass clarinet and saxophones).
I remember not liking the one on Buffet Tosca the first time I tried it, but more recently I tried it again and it was ok (just not better than a regular key in any way).
Two I don't like at all are the ones on the Forte and the new Cannonball clarinets. They are not really similar to each other but each was unformfortable in its own way (comapred with a regular key).
So for soprano clarinets I prefer the regular shape that most clarinets have. For bass I like the shape like the modern ones have.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-07-09 04:51
I've had them on several clarinets of different makes, and find no advantage.
In fact, the "meat" of my thumb pad fills the gap between the keys and the thumb ring, which is uncomfortable, and I have to angle my thumb more in parallel with the body of the clarinet than with the "normal" key that sits more proud of the thumb ring.
I'm with skygardner. I don't mind making some adjustments, but learning two ways of using the thumb, one for the "ergonomic" style and the "normal" style, isn't something I want to have to do, especially if there's no advantage in it. In fact, I've built up the ergonomic keys with cork so I don't have to deal with it.
B.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-09 12:17
Attachment: 001.JPG (170k)
Here's a photo of the Buffet basset horn speaker key:
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-09 12:45
Attachment: RegKey.jpg (22k)
Well, first I'd try to bend it a bit so that the thumb plate is at least centered.
IMO the LH tip is useless, as the thumb comes from a completely wrong angle anyway.
In the attachment you see a properly shaped asymmetric register key. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-09 12:49
The cut-out is concentric with the thumb plate once it's closed, but it does look a bit off centre while open standing.
As the thumb plate is small I think this is my main gripe with it as my thumb completely covers the whole plate, so there's barely any room between the speaker touch and my thumb.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-07-09 14:28
Back in the 1960-70's, I believe there was a "Lowry" [sp?] Bb sop. register key designed and patented,[will look for it later, try Google patents] available on Leblancs and perhaps Selmers. My recall is that the modern saxes and Bass cls have much this same design. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-07-09 15:02
So does anyone here really prefer these keys?
(Coincidentally, Ben, my cork build-up on my own horns' "ergonomic" register key nearly duplicates what's in the photo you attached.)
B.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-07-09 21:56
Dear B.
As I have said, the "A" and "Bb" soprano Selmers are a total gas to play and I loved the weird little key. It looked to me in images that it would feel uncomfortable just as many of you describe the practical experience. My hands on experience was, oddly enough, wonderful.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-09 21:59
ChrisP- "I keep catching the pointed tip on the right side so the speaker mechanism doesn't close properly."
I wonder if the key needs to be bent down toward the body more?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-09 22:05
The height of the touchpiece is fine in the middle, but the pointed edges of it are too high as they're not rounded off like a normal-shaped speaker key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-10 03:28
So maybe you can just grind those pointed edges or parts of them to round them lower?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-10 07:58
I think I'll reshape the touch into a teardrop shape, doing away with the pointed edges.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-10 11:21
I'm not familiar with the horn but it appears that if you bent the key downward then it wouldn't actuate the mating piece above the posts adequately.
How about taping your thumb?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-07-10 14:32
Chris,
They used that same design on their Prestige altos too and I have come to love it. However, I have a Prestige bass of the same concept so it was easy to adapt.
One thing that has taken me more time to adjust has been the open hole on the RH1 key on the Prestige alto. Am not sure whether the basset horn also uses that. It does vent better so that you can use a traditional fingering for B and F# now and not sound as though the note is not vented properly but after years of playing alto, basset horns and basses with the key SOLID I tend to stray off that key and get a squeak. It takes me 10-15 minutes each time i play to get my mind right abut that key.
Anyway, it's interesting what things bug us!
Eefer guy
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-10 14:54
>> They used that same design on their Prestige altos too and
>> I have come to love it. However, I have a Prestige bass of
>> the same concept so it was easy to adapt.
It's not really the same. In the bass clarinte (and saxophones) the hinge of the register (octave) lever is parallel to the body. In the photo Chris gave it is perpendicular, and that's exactly the difference. I noticed that I like this type of key (especially an asymetrical one e.g. the one tictactux showed) when the hinge is parallel (and I'm used to it from the bass like you) but not when it is perpendicular like soprano clarinets, etc.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-10 14:58
I'm fine with my Prestige bass as that feels and works pretty much like a sax 8ve key and has a large plate for the left thumb, but on the basset horn the thumbplate is around the same diameter as a thumb ring on a Bb/A clarinet so the fleshy pad on my thumb overhangs all the way round so it can inadvertently catch on the sharp edges of the speaker key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-07-10 18:51
EUREKA [credited to Archimedes, floating in his bathtub] I have found it !! Design patent to Robert E Lowry [asg. to Leblanc] 1959, D185,985 Register Key "shape of spatula". Ref's cited, 1,319,625 Wrap-around R K and 2,846,917 Sax octave key, see the thumb spatula for shape , may be of interest here. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-07-10 20:36
Chris,
Just came home and checked my alto and it is IDENTICAL. In fact I'm wondering if what I have is an Eb basset horn in this Buffet Prestige alto! It has a different feel than other altos although not quite as resistant as my LeBlanc basset horn. The same mouthpiece works great on both too. Anyway, I like this spatula octave key a lot. As i said above, the hole in the RH1 key was more disconcerting to me than the octave key. Does the basset horn use this change too? I do have large hands though so maybe this is why I liked it. i can slide the side of my thumb onto the octave key easily.
As clarnibass points out, the bass is a bit different but similar in that the octave key sort of wraps around the circular thumb plate. Maybe getting used to one made the transition easier.
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-10 21:13
Buffet basset horns do have the perforated plate for LH1 so you roll down for the lower altissimo instead of lifting LH1 (otherwise the notes from Eb upwards become too sharp). The old ring key ones (Buffets and Selmers)don't, so you either half-hole LH1 or use the throat G# for altissimo E and F.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-07-10 22:52
Chris,
No I mean RH1. It has a hole in it! It is supposed to give more resonance to the notes B and F# and itr does although i tend to not use the RH2 fingering for that note.
I wondered if they did that same modification on the basset horn.
Eefer guy
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-07-10 23:35
Thanks Don B. for the patent information. A student of mine bought an old Leblanc Symphonie that had the Lowrey key. On the side of the key, it was written "Robert Lowrey". It was a very fine instrument that he bought for about $350 and the key shape was ok.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-11 13:16
Evidently Tom Ridenour liked the design.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-07-11 14:26
Sorry Eefer Guy - I always get my left and right mixed up, made driving lessons fun!
Yeah, the RH1 fingerplate has a hole though it to increase the venting of the lower register B (and C).
On these RC Prstige basset horns there are vent keys nearly everywhere - the open G (left thumb) has a vent below where the thumb is (seen in the pic earlier on here), LH3 is doubled for a clearer D/A, RH3 is doubled for a clearer A/E and the RH F/C key is doubled for the G/D.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-11 15:16
Chris P wrote:
> Sorry Eefer Guy - I always get my left and right mixed up, made
> driving lessons fun!
Heh, you're one of those too? I always have to consciously think (well, you know what I mean) when I have to explain the way to someone. I may be missing the brain cells that are responsible for storing the "left" and "right" bits, or have forgotten were I put them.
--
Ben
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-07-11 15:50
Chris,
It sounds as though Buffet must have designed both the Prestige alto and basset horn very similarly. All the same sorts of modifications and venting mechanisms. Compared to my LeBlanc (Paris) alto the position of the keys on the upper joint are also distributed quite differently. I find all these notes on the Prestige, except the Bb to C RH side trill, to be better in tune than on my LeBlanc alto but of course the latter fingering is rarely used. The sound on the Buffet is much bigger too. As one of my colleagues said "It makes you think so differently about what an alto clarinet can do." Everyone has been impressed with the sound after years of hearing wheezy altos.
I wish that I had the Prestige basset horn too but I can't justify buying another one when the LeBlanc basset horn is in fine shape and jobs so scarce. Maybe my next big windfall!
Like you I have to THINK and point RIGHT HAND when I say it. I am VERY right handed, so much that trilling the C#/G# key with my left hand pinky is almost painful. Probably good that I play so many woodwinds or my left hand would've atrophied!
Eefer guy
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