 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2009-07-08 17:25
Hi, sorry for yet another oil thread, but...
My new rosewood Patricola's oiling instructions say ONCE A MONTH with almond oil. I thought I was being a noble person if I oiled my Buffets once a year- does anybody know if this is really necessary? Is it something about rosewood?
I feel sort of like I bought a shirt without noticing the 'dry clean only' tag.
Thanks, Trevor
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-08 17:35
Define "oiling".
Is it "nearly soak" or "pull a barely damp rag through the bore"?
--
Ben
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2009-07-08 17:50
Ben-
Applying a thin, even coat of almond oil – "as used in pastry" – to the entire bore and then letting it sit out overnight.
-Trevor
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-07-08 17:53
Seems a little excessive to me, but (according to Tom Ridenour) Rosewood is more susceptible to cracking, so providing a moisture barrier is not a bad idea. I would use something other than almond oil.
Jeff
Edited to clarify point made
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-07-08 22:56)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-08 18:57
I'm under the impression that Rosewood is less dense than blackwood
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-08 19:01
BobD wrote:
> I'm under the impression that Rosewood is less dense than
> blackwood
Ain't we all? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-08 19:46
>> Rosewood is more susceptible to cracking <<
I assume you mean more than grenadilla/blackwood. Just curious how do you know this? Isn't rosewood softer? Just intuitively, I thought a harder wood is more likely to crack, and a softer wood is less likely because it's more flexible. But maybe there are other reasons other than hardness.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-07-08 20:15
While we are just guessing, I would assume a wood (such as rosewood) that expands and contracts more readily would need more "TLC" and more bore oil. The only devastating equipment crack that I'd suffered over the years was with a rosewood mouthpiece ....... right down the center of the table.
Personally I have felt that oiling is more a function of the prevailing humidity and temparature conditions where you live. I oil my African Blackwood horns once a month (and key oil too!!!). Even then I get tenons looking a little like a candy bar indicating wood that's drying out.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-07-08 21:57
Clarnibass, I was going from some statements Tom Ridenour made recewntly regarding wood choices for clarinet making. Of the woods, he liked the sound and look of rosewood, but said it was so inherently unstable and susceptible to cracking that it was not the best choice for clarinet making. He claimed that he would have had to line the bore of the upper joint and barrel with rubber to help prevent cracking of the wood.
My mistake, in that I should have attributed the info to him.
Jeff
edit for typo
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-07-08 22:54)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-09 11:10
"...I thought a harder wood is more likely to crack, and a softer wood is less likely because it's more flexible. But maybe there are other reasons other than hardness."
Yes indeed. If you have chopped a variety of timbers for firewood with an axe, you will know that some timbers have far stronger bonds across the grain, irrespective of density.
And for some timbers it is difficult to split them along a diameter, but quite easy to split along a chord...
http://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-lines.gif
This indicates that the bonds are weak circumferentially, but strong radially.
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2009-07-09 18:05
Actually, they seem to recommend the once-a-month light oiling for both their granadilla AND rosewood models. I am comforted, though, that the front of their home page notes "Our instruments don't know what is the wood cracking". I will carefully avoid mentioning the subject to the clarinet.
-Trevor
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Author: William
Date: 2009-07-10 14:54
FWIW, I have been playing my Buffet R13 Bb for 25 yrs and have never oiled the bore. Nor have I ever oiled any of my other wood clarinets. And in spite of living in cold winters and warm, humid summers--and all weather in between--none of my clarinets have cracked or suffered bore warpage. All I do is swab them after every use and try to keep them at as stable an average temperature that I can between uses--pretty much room temperature, whatever that may be. I am not *against* oiling the clarinet bore, I just do not do it. However, once a month does seem a bit excessive.
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2009-07-12 04:22
I just had a conversation (today) with Marvin Kranz in St, Louis. He told me NOT to oil the bore. He claims that putting oil on the inside, while leaving the outside dry can damage the clarinet. What he DID recommend was an oil bath, although he didn't specify a time interval. He said the clarinet should be checked out at least once a year and oiled if necessary. I know this is a much debated topic so I thought you might want to hear Marvin's take.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-07-12 05:02
I suggest oiling once a moth. It's important to get the mothy tone out of the clarinet.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-12 08:30
So you are telling me I have a mothy tone? 
Whew! Just as well I did not ignorantly publish it in the internet.
Did Marvin Kranz say WHY this damages the clarinet; his basis for this claim?
And which oil exactly was he talking about?
Or was he talking about careless oil that gets the stuff all over the pads?
So many unknowns here.
Post Edited (2009-07-12 08:31)
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-07-12 13:02
I've always oiled the bore with regular bore oil that you can pick up from any music store. Then, I carefully oiled the outside with a soft cloth, paying careful attention to keeping the fresh oil away from the pads. Let it sit overnight. Probably once a quarter, twice a year, depending on how much I am playing. When I wasn't actively playing, I probably oiled it once a year, if that. Keep my clarinet in a stable temperature, away from windows, and out of the sun. Never cracked in 25 years. Recently had an overhaul. Tech said it needed a good soaking with the pricey stuff while the keys were off. Everything in moderation?
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2009-07-12 18:29
Marvin stated that the oil expands the wood, so the bore expands while the drier outside doesn't, possibly inducing cracks. We didn't discuss it in much more detail than that. I simply asked him if I should be oiling and he said no.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-07-12 19:16
But when you're playing your clarinet, doesn't the bore expands too, while the outside doesn't?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-07-12 20:38
Blueesparkle, rather than mineral0-based oils, you should consider using something like BoreDoctor or GrenadOil. They're wonderful, as is just about everything else the Doctor sells. I personally like using GrenadOil on our clarinets.
Jeff
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-13 07:41
Although many people have opinions it seems that the people that made the clarinet in question suggest oiling once per month with almond oil. Perhaps they are right about their own product?
If it were my clarinet, I would do just as instructed.
With regular wood clarinets I do heavy oiling about once per year with the doctor's oil.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-13 12:11
Just an impression that seems to be regularly reinforced in various ways...
It seems almost standard practice that the accessory greases and oils offered under the name of otherwise reputable instrument makers are profit driven (being charitable, rather than saying ignorance driven) rather than being driven by suitability or quality.
(I guess Omar may have a lot to say about this if his lips were not sealed.)
So I would actually be rather hesitant to trust the bore oil recommendation by an instrument manufacturer.
Perhaps Yamaha may be an exception. They seem to have upgraded their lubricant products.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-07-13 12:16
Well I have two clarinets one is 4 years old and the other one is 15 years old(I've owned that one from 2001) no oiling and no cracking what so ever.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-07-13 14:36
When I overhauled a 1930s clarient, there were small cracks seen in the mortice of the barrel inside. They disappeared with oiling carefully.
It is very satisfying seeing the dry rough bore of an instrument gradually becoming smooth and shiny with repeated light oilings over the course of a week
Chris
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-13 15:15
"So I would actually be rather hesitant to trust the bore oil recommendation by an instrument manufacturer."
So, when your car dealer says to change your oil every 3000 miles, do you assume that they are just trying to get more money from you?
I find that "Almond oil" is a very specific direction that doesn't have any profit driven motives that I can see- it's not saying, "the special oil that only we can provide you with."
--
Ps. If you are talking about the generic greases with no explanation of what is in there, then I agree with you.
Post Edited (2009-07-13 15:26)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-07-13 16:10
skygardener wrote:
> So, when your car dealer says to change your oil every 3000
> miles, do you assume that they are just trying to get more
> money from you?
Yes - the 3000 mile change almost always conflicts with the manufacturer's recommendation. For a fact, the dealership I just bought my new car from recommended oil changes every 3000 miles, even though the manufacturer recommends a 5000 mile chage under severe conditions.
Dealerships (all of them, no matter what the product) have their own interests at heart - sometimes they coincide with the manufacturer's, sometimes not.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-13 22:12
You're right. The comparison is wrong anyway.
A more accurate comparison would be-
When the company that made your car says to change your oil every 3000 miles, do you assume that they are just trying to get more money from you?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-14 11:21
So, Mark, I hope you didn't get rid of that neat red Beetle!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-07-14 12:20
Just one other thing about ignoring the manufacturer's recommendation - if you do this and then have some kind of problem with the instrument which you want sorted out, would they try and claim that you have invalidated the warranty by failing to adhere to their recommendation?
Vanessa.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-07-14 13:21
BobD wrote:
> So, Mark, I hope you didn't get rid of that neat red Beetle!
>
With only 160,000 miles on a chip-tuned turbo-diesel? You jest! My youngest son got my beloved toy.
I have the 2010 Mazda 3 hatchback
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-07-16 14:24
"A more accurate comparison would be-
When the company that made your car says to change your oil every 3000 miles, do you assume that they are just trying to get more money from you?"
In this particular case that you cite, the recommendation seems to be about 12 times more often than general consensus. So is that equivalent to the car manufacturer who recommends every 250 miles? Hmm.
And what if you found out that in spite of recommending almond oil, the manufacturers themselves use a totally different oil.
Equivalent to the car manufacturer recommending say cooking oil as engine oil?
This sort of thing does seem to be happening. Not so much for cars maybe, but for clarinets. Key oil, cork grease, and no doubt bore oil.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-16 14:37
"This sort of thing does seem to be happening. Not so much for cars maybe, but for clarinets. Key oil, cork grease, and no doubt bore oil."
I am just assuming that the manufacturer is telling the consumer to care for a product in a certain way because they believe it to work. Naive, perhaps, but when people buy my mouthpieces, I tell them to care for it in such and such a way because I believe that to be true.
I wonder, though, what is it with this consistent mistrust of the manufacturer, but support of their products?
"I've got to get that clarinet! It's really well made! It sound's great! ... But they say to use this particular key oil. They don't what they are talking about!"
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-07-16 15:13
(Disclaimer - I sell Woodwind use and care products)
Listening to manufacturer's recommendations to keep the warranty in effect is a good and prudent thing to do - however:
Woodwind manufacturers sell use and care products too but not necessarily of the same type or quality that they use during manufacturing the instrument. None, TMK, of the manufacturers use clear mineral oil to impregnate the wood during manufacture but several sell it under their namesake as an aftermarket product. The key oils sold by these same manufacturers are common petroleum products without modern wear and corrosion protectants. In the field of Tribology (science of lubricants) there are new and better products as acknowledged by the industry as a whole.
Will the products sold by the manufacturers work? - Sure - (with my caveat that mineral oil will harm Grenadilla wood over time) but there are better researched oils for wood, and key oils, and other products available (IMO) There are no inherent guarantees with using a "Name" use and care product which will probably cost more than a generic or even a superior product under another namesake.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-07-16 18:44
For most of us, I don't think the problem is an inherent mistrust of manufacturer's directions. Rather, it comes from encountering directions that are radically different than what the majority of manufacturers follow or that are markedly different than what we've been taught. Also, I think all of us have read instruction manuals which were apparently written by someone who didn't speak a word of English, who didn't appear to have more than a passing familiarity with the product, or who just wasn't able to communicate clearly. A visit to sites like engrish.com illustrates that problem very well.
Fortunately, in the case of clarinets, they're an instrument which will continue to perform remarkably well with almost no care at all, so there's a lot of leeway for us to use almond oil, mineral oil, super-duper high-tech bore oil, or nothing at all. If the bore is clean and clear, it'll play. (I recently rebuilt the lower joint for an alto clarinet where some brilliant soul had dealt with lost screws for the thumb rest by nailing it in place with nails that went most of the way through the bore. For some reason, it didn't play very well...)
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