 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-05 06:35
I am on cheapo 1 1/2 rico reeds, ancient reeds at that, which makes for easy blowing for clarion and chalumeau, and I've been able to adjust my embouchure to keep notes from going flat.
I've known that I pinch my reed harder going to upper ranges, so I've been mentally telling myself not to do that and concentrate on throat instead, which works well for Clarion range...
However, going to about B5-D6 and it becomes an uphill climb. I tried to open up my throat, and attempt to switch to double lip, but a noticeable descent to flatness cannot be averted. I am looking up alternate fingering at the moment to see if that would chain the beast somehow, although so far I've no way to truly contain the problem.
I don't play in altissimo much, but lively passages going from upper clarion to altissimo are often exciting and it becomes greatly soured when one goes flat and the instrument becomes more unruly. Squeaks break out unexpectedly and strength of the lip muscles are sapped rapidly.
Any suggestion regarding getting stability over lower altissimo range? This is quite frustrating for me.
Post Edited (2009-07-05 18:01)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-07-05 11:15
Well, this is wat you can expect playing very soft reeds.
There is no other solution than using stronger reeds, may be in combination with a different mouthpiece and problably some embouchure development. What mouthpiece do you use on the moment?
A very uncommon (and expensive solution) would be to buy a Herbert Wurlitzer clarinet. These instruments excel when you play as you describe.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-05 11:43
Agree with Jeroen, get a mouthpiece/reed combination that fares better "up there".
Needn't be an expensive beak; I've had (still do) excellent results with one of the better student mouthpieces out there (heck, they are designed to make playing easier). Fobes Debut, Behn Ouverture, Hite Premiere all climb up with little effort; none costs more than ~35$.
--
Ben
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-07-05 15:52
Try standing on one foot as you approach those high notes.
No kidding, you'll have to tense your belly to maintain your balance, and that extra support will help those notes "speak."
If that fails after a fair trial, you'll need get a reed that is stiff enough to provide a natural frequency (of the reed "plucked") that is higher than the notes you intend to play.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-05 16:39
Thank you all for the responses. What I am finding is that by F6 I am almost a semitone off (I seriously wondered if I am pressing the wrong key over this)
It is funny that such a problem never creped up since I couldn't even get A5 reliably on the old Artley 17s I have.
Clarinet is the Bliss, on Cadenza mp. I have been wondering if I should opt for a strengh 2 for some time personally. I tried 2 1/2 Vandoren, but their consistent tunes prove too draining for my flabby lips. (although I did notice how that I needed far less adjustment to get notes in tune in exchange for higher air speed)
Yes, I have actually stood up to get airflow up. The unruliness of the instrument creeps up exponentially starting from B5 and it seems to travel down as I enter into downward chromatic into upper clarion and I only regain control after reorienting my embouchure for some reason, despite attempt to compensate as I do down.
Post Edited (2009-07-05 16:49)
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-07-05 18:29
Since I didn't even know that reeds come in 1.5 strength, I guess my advice would be to experiment with one of the more common reed/mouthpiece combinations and see if that helps. I'm not a scientist, but my guess is that your reed is too soft to withstand the type of vibration that occurs when playing the high notes.
Although it's my spare mouthpiece and not my regular one, I found that a Vandoren M-15 mouthpiece works well with stronger reeds (makes them easier to play). I selected it when I came back to playing after 20 years, when my embouchure was not-so-in-shape. So if you are worried about increasing reed strength without wearing out, then the M-15 might make that transition easier. Maybe try the M-15 with a 2.5 strength reed to start out with.
When I'm playing that high, I find that more lip strength in combination with faster air flow is required.
Post Edited (2009-07-05 18:32)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-05 18:55
> I have been wondering if I should opt for a strengh 2 for some time
> personally. I tried 2 1/2 Vandoren, but their consistent tunes prove too
> draining for my flabby lips.
Unless you have some sort of special condition with your lips or your jaw musculature etc that forbid a harder reed, I'd say 1.5 is far too soft. Try to work yourself up towards a 2.5..3 strength which, by own experience, will require half a year and daily practice. But it certainly is worth the effort.
Your post doesn't tell - do you have a teacher?
--
Ben
Post Edited (2009-07-05 18:56)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-05 19:24
No, I am self taught regarding all aspects of the instrument, down to the acoustics and even the corporate side of it, although it took me 4 years of playing and 6 years since high school before finding the BBoard treasure trove.
I just opened up the freebee Vandoren 2.5, and it actually greatly improved intonation, but the tradeoff of jaw muscle weakening due to increased air speed hinders dynamics as well as duration of play.
This does make me understand why freeblowing isn't always really that good, yet it also makes me realize just how much one can alter the tune so that you can get Dixieland/Jazz play on a softer reed more easily by embouchure adjustments.
Moreover, it seems to me that the state of the instrument can have detrimental effect as one moves to altissimo register. I am very certain that the reason why I cannot get above A5 consistently with my older clarinet is due to the instrumental limitations, since the Bliss, a Jupiter 631 as well as the B12 and the YCL-450 I've tried a few weeks ago can hit and hold at C6 without a sweat, and this is with a pack of 1 1/5 Rico reeds made in 1982.
Post Edited (2009-07-05 20:14)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-05 20:26
Franklin Liao wrote:
> Moreover, it seems to me that the state of the instrument can
> have detrimental effect as one moves to altissimo register. I
> am very certain that the reason why I cannot get above A5
> consistently with my older clarinet is due to the instrumental
> limitations, since the Bliss, a Jupiter 631 as well as the B12
> and the YCL-450 I've tried a few weeks ago can hit and hold at
> C6 without a sweat, and this is with a pack of 1 1/5 Rico reeds
> made in 1982.
That leads me to suspect that your older clarinet requires some kind of service; no reasonably well built clarinet (from student to pro grade) should have a problem playing the altissimo. Even the tiniest leak in one of the upper pads will thwart your attempts at playing a high note - the higher, the harder.
"Instrumental limitations" indeed, but not necessarily due to poor manufacturing but rather due to individual components (such as pads) beginning to show their age.
--
Ben
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-05 20:46
My supplemental proof to Ben's point about pad failure comes with how that the keyworks are in robust condition on the 17s, but that chalumeau E3-G3 along with the B4-C5 on the Artley are only doable if I press hard down on the keys, indicating key seal leakage. This gave me alot of headache since register transition is severely hampered due to the lack of response from the keys due to the seal leak.
*to make matters worse, I didn't have a clue about the reason why this occurred before doing some reading, so I've been living with it for years and compensating where possible, harming my hobby and the instrument itself even...
Mechanically, the ABS resin construct of 17s has held up very well, and only repadding is needed... recorking isn't essential yet.
To be honest, I actually did investigate the costs to replace the pads with something better. The very cost to service however would be equal to that of getting a second-hand student model that has been serviced. there is only $80 that's left on the student instrument!
Post Edited (2009-07-05 20:54)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-06 01:49
Take lessons and use harder reeds, maybe even a different mouthpiece! I'm surprised your even asking. Contact one of the Symphony players if you don't know of a good teacher. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-07-06 14:32
I second the advice of having a teacher, but if you insist on going it alone there may be multiple bad habits that will take longer to rid than they took to acquire.
That said, I am surprised no one jumped on your "open throat" remark.
To most, open throat means saying "AHHHHHH." What this does is make your oral cavity larger BUT.... it at the cost of shoving the back of your tongue down your throat.
BOTH the larger oral cavity and the closed throat (I mean it, look in a mirror with your mouth open and say AHHHHHH) will only serve to slow down your air speed and make your sound worse ESPECIALLY IN THE ALTISSIMO.
................call that teacher NOW !!!!!
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-06 16:41
Once again, thank you all for pointing out what I should have realized at first.
In effect, I was starving the instrument by opening up my throat, so the whole engine has no way to go but to stall and sputter. (o physics, how you rear your ugly head)
So essentially, the way to deal with the air speed issue would be adequate breathing support, keep the amplitude low, frequency high because it is not the overall volume of the air, but the velocity that will determine if one can hold the tunes successfully. This would be in effect of getting better compression ratio of the air intake of the mouthpiece in order to fuel the instrument as its resistance goes up.
That would complete the puzzle I suppose. It actually makes sense to see this issue as one would a ramjet. Since the Mouthpiece and the reed serve as point of compression, I need to drive air to a higher velocity in order to produce thrust/stable sound.
This at the same time would explain why playing 'high and soft' proves to be harder. You would have to control how fast and how much air in a given part of a passage in altissimo range, while paying an upkeep to keep the voice clean and focused.
This analogy would explain why stiffer reed is important since the point of compression is under pressure and and the reed cannot fluctuate erratically. Biting on the reed would be detrimental too as this change in air intake throws the compression ratio out of whack, ruining the desired results of the sound exhaust.
And yes, I will have to consider an instructor. Although it's a bit of a pity that when one's an adult, more and more things show up and try to get in your way of having fun.
Post Edited (2009-07-06 17:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-07-06 20:56
Dear Franklin Liao,
I've never heard the air speed issue summarized so succincly before, BRAVO !!
You probably already have concluded that you need to keep the tongue at a relatively normal position (or think the vowel sound "EEEEEEE").
As for the air support I've seen it approached in a very direct manner. Teacher puts a sock in the bell, tells student to play low "E" as loud as they can, no sound, "MORE," no sound, "M-O-R-E," of course no sound, now the teacher removes the sock and says do it again, the sound and the feeling of that sound is unforgettable.
You are using abdominal and intercostal muscles (between ribs) to generate more pressure......... and more air speed.
Quick, cool air is the key.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-07-06 21:24
By the way, I am happy to report that all of these recommendations (save getting a new mouthpiece and a wurlitzer) on top of me getting a Legere strength 2 solved the issues satisfactorily. Getting stable altissmo shouldn't be difficult in the first place when everything is in order!
(although personally it only means that F6 is doable at quarter note... maybe)
However, getting this air speed is easier said than done. I have to conclude that abdominal and intercostal muscles take time to be developed enough so that you can really play for any sustained duration over altissimo. As it is for me, the higher I go, the more sticcado-prone each note becomes and that hampers articulation of passages.
A very important lesson I've learned is that ancient reeds from 1982 really shouldn't be used at all. I found out that I need to compensate much, much less on the legere to make the sounds in tune, and those compensation only comes in by upper clarion into altissimo.
I actually found this report on inhalation-sharpening effect
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Misc/breatpit.pdf to be a beautiful source in summarizing the mechanics of voicing.
(now, how am I going to find someone that will school me on aerodynamics together with music theory...)
Post Edited (2009-07-06 22:18)
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Author: Simon
Date: 2009-07-07 03:52
Sock in the bell as advised by Paul works for me. More importantly it has improved my sound quality at the same time.
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