 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-30 20:24
Hello BB’ers!
I was listening to Neidich’s recording of the first movement of the concerto, and was wondering what type of instrument he is playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSUqYbWSOkQ
To me it neither sounds like a ”current” clarinet nor like a Stadler clarinet, could it be he is playing a late 19th century clarinet with Albert system and low-C extension? I remember seeing a picture of him holding a old-ish Albert system instrument…
Many thanks in advance!
DAE
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2009-07-01 03:06
It's a modern bassett clarinet by Leblanc. The instrument is detailed in the liner notes.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-01 05:06
Interesting. It namely sounds much different from his clarinet sound in his Weber recordings. Thank you!
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-01 11:03
Thanks, Thomas, but this is not the clarinet I was talking about.
Take a look: http://www.dianesaldick.com/ainstr/cn/img/medres/CN2_m.jpg
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-01 12:34
Ken -
Thanks for the post. I am aware that the Stadler clarinet is the ”appropriate” instrument for the concerto (IMO a normal stretched Buffet RC or similar is the appropriate), but what I meant is that I found the sound in the recording very different from Neidich’s Weber-sound and not similar or low-pitched enough to sound like a Stadler clarinet.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-07-01 13:46
aero145 -
I just listened to the YouTube performance, which, by the way, is really excellent. The instrument is clearly a standard Boehm A clarinet with extra basset keys extending the range down to written low C. (For one thing, it's with Orpheus, which plays on modern instruments, and it's pitched at A-440, whereas period reproduction clarinets are at around A-430.)
Almost all extended modern instruments have a distinct change in tone color beginning around low G, where they take on a bass clarinet quality. I have played an extended Leblanc, which was like that, and the Selmer and Buffet models are the same. The change is caused, I think, by the fact that the extension is simply grafted onto the existing non-extended model. The French bore, which Leblanc uses, changes from cylindrical to conical around low G and expands continuously through the bell. Any extension of the bore has to be cylindrical to make the standard bell usable. The change in geometry causes the tone color change.
Charles Neidich is the supreme virtuoso, and he controls the color change magnificently, but it's still noticeable, and I'm sure that's what you hear.
Sabine Meyer plays a custom-made Wurlitzer, which I think has a redesigned bore, and her tone color is "clarinet" all the way to the low C. When you read Steve Fox's site, you'll find that he makes a Boehm instrument with a German bore in the lower joint It's cylindrical all the way to the top of the bell, which means that the bore doesn't have to change from cylindrical to conical to cylindrical. Presumably that's why Sabine's tone doesn't change.
To hear what Stadler's instrument (probably) sounded like, listen to Lorenzo Coppola's recording http://www.amazon.com/Last-Concertos-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart/dp/B000XQHQWQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1243293026&sr=8-1. See the discussion at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=302940&t=302700. There's also a live recording on YouTube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja8mbwpAZwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMVYdQxgU4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uDCLb0RIc&fmt=18 and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CyZmoB7mjk
The instrument shown at http://www.dianesaldick.com/ainstr/cn/img/medres/CN2_m.jpg has German keywork and fingering. It's not the same as the one Neidich plays at http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1244733405929888, which is a Boehm system instrument made of boxwood (or perhaps maple). The mellow tone probably comes from the boxwood, plus perhaps a different bore and mouthpiece design.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2009-07-01 14:13)
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-01 19:00
Hello again, Ken!
Thanks for the explanation about the bore in the lower joint on the stretched ones.
I still find it odd that the low-note sound from Neidich is much less bass clarinet-ish than Fröst’s low-note sound. Fröst playes a stretched Buffet.
I have heard Coppola’s Stadler clarinet performance and I have to admit, I really didn’t like his playing or sound at all. He may be a master of the Stadler clarinet, but that doesn’t change the fact that I dislike it.
On another note; do you know why clarinets are not built in boxwood anymore? They don’t sound too bad!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-07-01 19:36
Boxwood warps terribly. I've seen an old recorder that's shaped like a crescent moon, curved around 90 degrees. Even worse, the bore warps unevenly, into an oval cross-section. That's why museum instruments are so hard to measure and reproduce.
A 5-key clarinet with short key mounts is trouble enough. Steve Fox makes them, and he says the wood needs oiling every few days. With the long modern keys, a boxwood clarinet would be unplayable without constant maintenance.
Bill McColl of the Soni Ventorum Quintet has or had a Buffet R-13 custom made from boxwood. People who have played it say it lacked power, and I don't think he recorded anything on it, probably because of the instability of the wood.
Kalmen Opperman made me a boxwood barrel, which has a wonderful, sweet tone. Even though it came from a small piece of wood, it has a knot in it (boxwood is full of them), which began to leak and had to be sealed with Krazy Glue.
Ken Shaw
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-01 20:07
Wow, now I understand! What about maple? I also play the bassoon, and I have only played maple and rubber instruments - no rosewood - and I like the wood quite well.
While talking about woods; I just discovered a crack in my cocobolo Backun barrel. It is not very long, and it doesn’t go through the wood, and I was wondering what to do. You seem to be a wood expert, and this is my thread, so it would be nice to hear if you know anything.
Many thanks!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-07-02 01:58
Backun stands behind his products. Get in touch with him and he will fix or replace your barrel.
Maple is very hard, though grenadilla is harder, which is why it's used for clarinets and oboes. Also, grenadilla absorbs almost no water.
Maple bassoons used to rot away inside until Heckel hit the idea of lining the wing joint and the descending part of the boot joint with bakelite and putting metal inserts in the finger holes. All modern bassoons have this lining. Alvin Swiney used to have a web site with horrifying pictures of bassoon boot joints full of rotting splinters.
Loree makes lots of plastic upper joints for its oboes and even makes oboes entirely of plastic. Richard Woodhams, the principal in Philadelphia, used a Loree with a plastic upper joint for many years, and I believe his current Yamaha is the same.
Oh boy do I wish Buffet would drop the Greenline fiction and go to pure plastic, which would never warp or crack.
Ken Shaw
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-02 02:43
Does anyone know who made the boxwood/maple clarinet Charlie is playing in the Chinese clip?
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-02 07:29
Hi once again Ken!
I will send him a message and hope for the best. Would be more comfortable if I lived in the States, but oh well.
Interesting info about the bassoons. Thinking of the metal things, I now remember playing a 1890’s Heckel which had no metal inserts.
I think the reason Buffet don’t make plastic pro instruments is purely psychological.
Skygardener: The people the the clip look Japanese to me, are you sure they are not Japanese?
Post Edited (2009-07-02 07:39)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-07-02 09:32
skygardener
I believe it's made by Schwenk und Seggelke
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-07-03 14:35
WOW on the Neidich Weber!!! I find it hard to enjoy anything he did on that.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-07-03 17:35
'cause the tonguing is sloppy, the intonation is spotty, the florishes over the top and frankly the Weber clarinet quintet is far from a masterpiece.
I have heard Mr. Neidich in much better form.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-07-03 17:46
I actually agree with you. I still find the tone nicer than Leister’s or Mayer’s, but technique-wise nope. I like his Weber concerto recordings better.
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