 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-06-18 12:33
Clarinet with no condensation and does not leave a puddle is something that I walked away thinking about after having a chance to talk to Mr.Backun at his beautiful workshop. It should be immediately obvious what this will mean for hygiene, mainteanance, intonation and even how we might think of clarinet.
Well, this is the point where one will call me a sheer lunatic. How can one make a woodwind that runs dry? It goes without saying that a clarinet relies on the vibration of that wet, moist reed and that mouthpiece to generate the sound. That mouthpiece is filled with hot, moist air coming from our lungs.
I... kind of have an answer on how to make a clarinet that the clarinetist can breathe in his/her humid air into and still not drip a drop of water, not only that, the said clarinet will contain the same body, barrel, bell and mouthpiece as any other clarinet.
The key to this lies in how that a mouthpiece itself is able to play tunes. Barrel and body plus the bell extend the length of the closed cylindral tube after all.
Therefore, can we separate the sound from the saliva?
There is only one way of producing sound that doesn't involve saliva, and that's through resonance with air and pushing that air. How do loudspeakers work after all?
Therefore, the only way to make a clarinet that's not soaked with concensed saliva is to keep only the sound and not the moisture through recording and then playing this sound back through the bore.
What this calls for is the creation of a completely dead stage that will sit inbetween the mouthpiece and the barrel. This barrel:
1. Must ventilate the steam and water so it won't go any further down
2. pass the sound made by the end point of the mouthpiece to the start of the barrel, perfectly at that. Essentially, it is about fooling two closed pipes into powering the one closed pipe starting at the point of the ordinary barrel.
This makes the massive assumption that I can somehow make the clarinet sound exactly the same by playing the noise generated from the endpoint of the mouthpiece at the opening of the barrel, despite the truncation.
I don't have autocad so I can't really show how I think is the way to get this sonically dead extension made, plus I am a whole continent away from home at the moment. I do have an idea that... may be able to preserve the tone of the mouthpiece successfully but I think it is sacriligious for concert clarinetists... a bit frustrating since if this approach can work, technically any clarinet can be made droplet free and quickly reconfigure itself back to a typical clarinet with no issue.
Post Edited (2009-06-18 12:47)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-06-18 13:41
Franklin, though your concepr is somewhat interesting, you are making a fundamental error in assuming that he majority of the liquid resulting from playing the instrument is saliva. For most clarinetists, this is not the case. it is the warm, moist air that you mentioned, which is expelled from the lungs and through the body of the instrument, which condenses against the cooler interior walls of our instruments.
Jeff
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-06-18 13:54
David:
Wouldn't that mean that essentially the ambiant temperature is sufficiently hot that...
well, I am curious about the effect of hot, humid ambiant air on the clarinet come to think of it. Mr. Kessler has often talk of how hot arid air of Nevada impacts the wooden horns, but I haven't seen a discussion about taking a clarinet into a sauna.
JJAlbrecht:
You are correct and thank you for pointing that out... since no professional will spit into their instrument. However... same cannot be said for students. I am now suddenly having to contend with thinking about not so much ventilation, but plumbing in that situation. Just think of how that instead of having your dear sweet high schooler dropping water down from the bell, (s)he is now getting the body wet with all that not so good stuff.
The reason why I think moisture is an issue I am thinking about is that moisture is enemy no.1 of electronic circuitery. However, this leaves me with another problem of stuffing sensors into a clarinet, and leaving every clarinetists completely oblivious to their presence... so make an anti-EWI.
By the way, I can say this much about my rough idea right now: it may involve ni-mh or lithium ion battery. Just think of 'what fun' it is to have this abomination of a clarinet that has an on-off switch.
(Although, I, being *barely made it computing graduate, dream of an electronic clarinet that 'is' analog at the same time... such notion makes me shudder and restless)
Post Edited (2009-06-18 14:10)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-06-18 13:59
> I did a recording session that they turned off the air conditioning - in a heat
> wave. After a 4 hour day there was no condensation in my Clarinet.
An easy, economical and ecological solution. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-06-18 14:24
>>Just think of 'what fun' it is to have this abomination of a clarinet that has an on-off switch.
I have heard a number of clarinet players whom I wished had the off switch installed on their instruments! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
Jeff
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2009-06-18 14:31
Jeff: tell that to the conductor too.
To be totally serious however, electronic woodwinds will create a paradigm shift in how one preserve their unique voice. Alot of audiophiles continue to bicker over the whole Analog->digital loss of information, and this is really annoying to say the least.
Let's say that virtuoso Drucker played the Mozart clarinet concerto and gave his nod over the digital readout copy and annotated it, complete with the setup that he had to personally audition himself, the audiophiles will have no choice but to oblige.
What I am imagining is that the anti-EWI form clarinet will actually perform an analog and a digital role simutaneously. What this means is that the digital readouts will be used to reconstruct the standard template for that specific player and such a template can be immediately compared to the analog recorded sample... so imagine if you want to see how the computer think you did on 1812 overture, you can actually cross-reference.
I will even further extend on this. If those readout information can be streamed using connection oriented TCP protocol over a secure dedicated line, a conductor can get live feed of what it is that you're doing on your clarinet through a hailstorm of numbers that is then interpreted immediately. We by doing this will combine technology with an artform, the same concept behind clarinet's transformation from chalameau of ere.
Of course, I admit that there's always the 'post my performance on youtube', but those readout data will completely obliterate the existing *.midi format and you can keep those readout in hard drive as a recording of your work... at a higher fidelty arguably.
To achieve this anti-EWI however, one has to create an analog clarinet that will not have a hint of moisture condensation anywhere. Call it what Gemini is to Apollo maybe?
Post Edited (2009-06-18 14:54)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-06-18 14:35
I have to swab out constantly because I'm a "wet" player and it's mostly saliva. I know many players that are the same way. Condensation my contribute but it's most me. It doesn't matter what the season or what the temperature is in the room, if I don't constantly swab my horn and pads get soaked. I have students that go an entire lesson without having to swab and others that have to swab several times during the same length lesson in the same studio on the same day one after the other. Some just play "wet" and it's not only condensation. A cold room may make it worse in the first few minutes but then it's mostly saliva. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: richard1952
Date: 2009-06-18 19:03
I play in a summer community band of about 120 players here in Arizona. We play only during June and July outdoors when the temperature ranges from 100 to 110 degrees and humidity often at 5%. After playing for about 1 1/2 hours my clarinet is as dry as a bone.
So my advice to those that have a problem with condensation or moisture dripping out of their instrument, you might consider moving to the desert.
Richard
Phoenix,AZ
richardseaman@cox.net
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-06-18 21:04
Ed how do you know it is saliva and not condensate?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-06-18 23:17
> Ed how do you know it is saliva and not condensate?
The floor will bubble and steam when a drop off the bell goes down...
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-19 12:18
"How can one make a woodwind that runs dry?"
Don't blow into it with your mouth......Put a goat's stomach under your arm and attach it to the mouthpiece. Pump. No condensate, no saliva, no embouchure problems......and virtual circular breathing to boot. And....you can sing along.
Bob Draznik
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-06-19 14:36
Maybe so, Bob, but not everyone feels comfortable waearing a kilt. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Jeff
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-19 15:47
I grew up in Hawaii. Without AC and including the very salty air, you never need to swab... ever.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-19 15:57
"waearing a kilt"
Ah, everyone thinks the Scots invented the Dudy.....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-06-20 10:12
"Wet player"
Surely any player, if they want to, can learn not to allow the saliva to pour into the instrument.
Create space behind the lower front teeth, under the tongue, to collect it, and swallow it whenever the opportunity presents.
Are these wet players filling that reservoir with tongue, by having tongue tip "anchored" to the back of the teeth?
As for reducing condensation, how about an element wire embedded in the Greenline composite, that uses battery power to keep the clarinet at a warmer temperature without making the player uncomfortable?
One player I know drilled a hole through her clarinet stand and attached the stand above a low box, in which there was a battery powering a light bulb to create a little warmth. Warm air rose through the clarinet, so every time she picked it up it was already warm. Excellent idea for a doubler in a cold orchestra pit.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-06-28 13:04
Which of the several things I wrote are so stupid?
And it is pretty non-constructive - stupid? - to declare something stupid without explaining your thoughts behind the declaration.
Perhaps when you elaborate we will find there has been a miscommunication.
If not, I am eager to learn from your superior wisdom.
Post Edited (2009-06-28 13:06)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-06-28 14:17
To Gordon: I don't think mr Lewis' comment wasn't directly about yours.
Rather,about original postand some othere.
I agree with mr Lewis.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-06-28 14:27
In answer to Rusty, because I have the same problem whether I'm playing in a warm room, a cold room, with A/C or heat, indoors or outdoors. As I said, I've seen one player in the same room having to swab out constantly, like me, and another player not having to at all. If it were simply condensation it would be the same for everyone.
As far as this being stupid, I don't think so but it's not especially important either, it's a curiosity. ESP
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-06-28 14:45
My son plays both clarinet and bagpipes. Normally, condensation collects in the bag of the pipes, as air goes directly into the bag from the blowpipe. However, there is a water trap pipe (just a plastic pipe about a foot long) that can be connected to the base of the blowpipe, where the air comes into the bag. The air to fill the bag comes out of the end of the water trap pipe, but it also contains the condensation within it, and provides a path for it to follow. This helps condensation from filling the lining of the bag and subsequently being blow into the drones and chanter. So the technology, as I understand it, allows the bag to stay drier longer.
What we clarinetists need is a tube or "ditch" that runs the length of the instrument that catches and diverts the heavier condensation, but allows the lighter air to go freely through the instrument.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-06-28 14:46
Condensation may differ player to player,but that doesn't mean it is saliva.
I can't think any decent player dripping saliva constantly to the calrinet.
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-06-28 14:51
How about heating coil imbedded inside of the clarinet?
It doesn't have to be hot,just warm enough like inside lung , 96.4 degrees.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-06-28 17:37
I would think it's probably a combination of both but to think that one is constantly blowing into a mouthpiece and not getting any saliva into it doesn't make sense to me. Also, saliva has a different consistency then condensation which is pretty much pure water. When I dry my pads, it's definitely not water. That's the main reason that pads go bad quickly if you don't dry them well after they get wet, it's the saliva that does that because of the enzymes in it, not water. If you or anyone else wants to believe differently then that's fine with me, it really doesn't mean anything to me. I wonder why I'm even taking the time to answer this. I'm going to mow my lawn now and I don't think I'll come back to this anymore. Fine, Good by, ESP
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-06-28 18:40
Interesting thread..I always find playing in a cold room in winter to be the worst. For some reason the clarinet becomes waterlogged quickly even in the lower joint!
I play at times for an amateur group which has a hall which is not heated properly. When the outside temp is minus 20 degrees celsius and the hall has warmed up to only 58 degrees in a time period of an hour...well it produces alot of of water quickly.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-06-28 22:28
French horn players refer to their instruments as stills as they collect so much condensed water. They have a lot of tubing for distilling the hot breath of players. A cold french horn always seems to have liquid in it even after setting for a day. Maybe they should take up this topic!
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Author: timg
Date: 2009-06-28 23:13
Franklin,
If I understand right, you're thinking of a barrel connected to a mouthpiece as normal, but with two "outlets". One, which is transparent to sound vibrations but blocks any net flow of air, is connected to the clarinet body. The other is the "exhaust", being perfectly reflective to sound waves, yet allowing breath to flow through.
What do have in mind for the "exhaust" part?
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Author: mr. Lewis
Date: 2009-06-30 04:40
Gordon,
That comment of mine was not directed specifically towards you. Although your idea about wiring your clarinet is rather extravagant. I just think trying to build a clarinet with no condensation is stupid (I use this word because I like it). It's stupid because condensation occurs as we blow air through our instrument, everyone knows this. But this air is such an important part to playing the clarinet so why would someone want to screw around with it by making weird contraptions to stop water from entering the rest of the clarinet.
Now the whole manipulating of temperature thing is a reasonable solution to this problem (?). O and the whole superior wisdom thing is questionable.
mr. Lewis
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-06-30 11:59
And I'm sure people thought Ben Franklin was stupid for flying a kite in a storm.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-30 12:14
Bluesparkle wrote:
> And I'm sure people thought Ben Franklin was stupid for flying
> a kite in a storm.
If he did - he was.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2009-06-30 12:58
A maker of ceramic accessories claims their ceramic barrel significantly reduces the build-up of condensation in a clarinet.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-06-30 13:00
Didn't Rube Goldberg build one of these water-less clarinets decades ago?
It was room size, and it took a while for the notes to reach the audience, but it was dry as a bone.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-30 13:35
I have a scientific condensation related question.
Has there been any study as to the pitch effects of the condensation? Since the condensation is physically sitting on the inner surface of the bore, would this have any effects as though the bore were smaller??
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