 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2009-06-24 20:17
What are the pros and cons of an asymetrical mouthpiece ? I have an unmarked one with the curve on one rail 19mm and the other 15 mm.
It plays reasonably well.
Alan
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-06-24 20:42
I have no real opinion of what the pros and cons are because different players use different pressure on different parts of the reed depending on their embouchure and lip size. If it plays really good that's all you really need to know, it works for you. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-25 01:32
With so many other factors affecting the mouthpiece, it's hard to single out the effects of just one factor, such as asymmetric rails -- but subjectively I've found that this tends to make the mouthpiece more resistant, while possibly adding some color to the tone. That said.....what Ed said!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-25 02:57
I went to a presentation once where Ron Caravan talked about this. He measured a lot of colleagues' mouthpieces (clarinet and sax) and he noticed that they all had significant asymmetry. Some more than others, but all had some.
He felt that there must be something about asymmetry that was good since so many pros, by testing a lot of mouthpieces and buying which ones they liked most, had naturally gravitated toward the mouthpieces that were asymmetrical.
Interesting thoughts.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-25 11:05
Artists will cover each half of a person's face to point out that they are seldom symmetrical. Ed's on the right track.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-06-25 18:11
My theory, not having made a mouthpiece, but having good mouthpieces that that are asymetrical is that given the right hand supports the clarinet, there is a natural tendency for the clarinet to be pulled to the right.
To compensate, the side rails cannot break from the same point.
Just a theory....never been proved.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-06-25 20:33
While I've made asymmetrical facing mouthpieces for some customers, I personally never liked the sound I got out of an asymmetrical mouthpiece. I've had success helping clients when I've straightened asymmetrical facings.
Chris Hill
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-25 21:25
BobD said:
”Artists will cover each half of a person's face to point out that they are seldom symmetrical.”
Hmm, seldom? I really would want to see a person with a symmetrical face. Good luck in finding it!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-25 22:57
Well.....maybe there is one person( or was one) somewhere with a symmetrical face. Never say never.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-06-26 21:42
This thread has really got me thinking. Because I have embouchure dystonia with very weak muscles on the right side of my face, I find it extremely difficult to put equal pressure at both ends of the mpc opening. The right side of my face simply gives out too fast while the left side reacts as if I haven't played at all.
Yes, I've tried playing my Chris Hill, highly modified, Ralph Morgan, RM-10, off center, however, I prefer to have the mpc in the center of my mouth.
Would an Asymetrical mouthpiece be of any benefit to me? (i.e., allow me to relax the muscles on my right side a little?)
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-27 01:40
Dan,
I don't think that an asymmetrical piece would necessarily be beneficial for your situation, but you may find one that works well for you.
For your situation though, I think that a very narrow, short faced piece would be best- asymmetrical or not.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2009-06-27 02:08
In response to aero145, it is said that the actor Denzel Washington has a symmetrical face. (Don't know whether he plays the clarinet though).
Alan
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-06-27 02:17
I agree with Chris Hill's points. I also have found that (for me) the uneven rails made it harder to find and adjust reeds that worked well.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-06-27 02:21
Dan: Asymmetric facings require more embouchure strength. I tried playing an asymmetric facing for about a month in 1990. If I'm not careful, I still have jaw problems. This problem started when I used an asymmetric facing. I have known others who said the same thing. There is nothing wrong with playing a little off-center. My teacher, Anthony Gigliotti, did.
Try different style reeds. Mitchell Lurie reeds play well with little embouchure pressure.
Skygardner, you are correct. I made Dan a mouthpiece with a close, short facing, that was nearly a Zinner-style facing. Combined with a baffle/chamber that would normally use a more open facing, it became a very easy to play mouthpiece for someone with embouchure dystonia.
Chris
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-27 04:10
I would have to agree with Chris in all respects. I have never taken asymmetry out of a mouthpiece for either me or for my clients, without a positive result.
Of course there are degrees of asymmetry - most of which is minuscule and has little or no negative influence. Perhaps only those that seek out *more* symmetry are the clarinetists that have asked for my assistance. But I tend to doubt it.
Tom Ridenour wrote a comprehensive description of asymmetry and it's pitfalls for many classical clarinetists. I don't know whether he still posts it as his website, but a search here will produce a post with it's contents.
Behind it's content lies a lot of wisdom and experience - most all of which I agree. I have a different style in mind than Tom, but I agree with his descriptions of the problems associated with asymmetry - the more asymmetry, the more the problems occur that he describes - all having to do with acoustical inefficiencies.
I haven't found that this subject has to do with the "matching" of asymmetry to the occlusion or embouchure as much as it has to do with matching one's personal goals in terms of sound and feel.
Also, my playing experience and ear tell me that asymmetry does not produce *more* color or resultant complexity to the sound, it simply adds a *different* color and complexity to the sound. That may sound like a distinction without a difference to some, but the distinction is real, especially when one considers that describing sound is quite subjective.
The bottom line for me is that too much asymmetry ads a huskiness, tubbyness, and dullness that comes with extra resistance in the facing and air stream. One ends up sounding more like the upper register of a bass clarinet than a soprano clarinet. It also encourages extra jaw pressure as Chris described earlier.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-27 07:20
Alanporter: I’ll try to find a head-on shot of that face and change it in Photoshop. Thank you!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-27 12:32
Greg Smith- "Also, my playing experience and ear tell me that asymmetry does not produce *more* color or resultant complexity to the sound, it simply adds a *different* color and complexity to the sound."
I agree. I think that, for some, this "different" color and complexity might be just what one is looking for.
Post Edited (2009-06-27 13:01)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-27 17:28
Tom Ridenour:
ASYMMETRICAL FACINGS
Some mouthpieces have side rails which do not share the same curve. We refer to such facings as asymmetrical or crooked facings. Makers who make such facings are usually seeking to achieve something specific in tone color. While this feature might achieve the timberal goal in a limited area of the clarinet, achieving such a goal by means of facing askewity creates other problems, especially in the area response. Further, it should be understood that askew rails extend into the tip rail, causing the most open part of the tip to be off center. This profoundly affects tone color in the upper register negatively (causing a tendency towards excessive thinness and brightness), makes upper register response unpredictable, insecure and undependable, as well as makes properly balancing reeds much more difficult than it ought to be.
Askew or crooked facings are not recommended for they are commonly either a major contributing factor to, or the root cause itself of the following playing problems:
1. Force the habit of biting (upward jaw pressure) in order to begin, control, center, or clarify the tone, especially at softer dynamics.
2.Cause difficulty in finding good reeds, make reed balance precarious and, depending on the degree or severity of askewity, can totally frustrate the reed balancing process altogether.
3.Cause insecurity and unevenness in slurring or playing attacks in the third register or upper clarion, especially at softer dynamic levels.
4. Make playing the full dynamic range of the clarinet with an even tone color difficult, causing breathiness in the tone to be a chronic tendency, especially at softer dynamic levels.
5. Make the tone difficult to center, especially at softer dynamic levels.
6. Cause an inordinate degree of embouchure/air pressure exchange to achieve the full dynamic and pitch range of the clarinet.
7.Cause a tendency for brightness and edge in upper register tones.
8.Cause a perpetual feeling of stuffiness in many cases even when softer
reeds are used.
For these and other reasons asymmetry in facings ought to be avoided. In this authors opinion, asymmetry is a Lorelei that tempts many and shipwrecks not a few. What it seeks to create in tone color can be achieved better in other ways without the unacceptable sacrifice of response and "reed
friendliness." No essential musical phenomenon should ever be compromised or sacrificed for the sake of another. The greatest opportunity the player or the mouthpiece maker has to do selective damping to darken the tone is the reed itself. Askew rails as a solution to tonal brightness is no solution at all because of the whole array of other problems such a "solution" creates.
Post Edited (2009-06-27 17:32)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-27 17:50
Perhaps it is true that one can probably accommodate playing a lot of
different equipment in many different ways. I suppose the general question is, where does one draw the line, in practical terms & in ones own best interest with how far one needs to go with asymmetry?"
There is a point of diminishing returns with asymmetry past which one becomes encumbered by their mouthpiece/reed combination in terms of effort exerted re: blowing resistance, response, articulation, and quality or quantity of sound.
As a practical matter, I wouldn't make it past the first half-page of the Brahms 1st Symphony in the orchestra with this style facing and believe from experience that it would be harmful to my playing to even attempt to learn to do so.
For those who believe that it just takes a bit of time to learn how to blow on a very asymmetrical mouthpiece, but it is well worth the effort, I would say that implicit in this belief is the notion that something extraordinary is available to one if they are willing to work extra hard. In my opinion it is not necessary to feel as though one needs to work hard to make a mouthpiece play beautifully and reliably when it can be done just as well with less effort.
In fact, I would say that this extraordinary effort detracts from a players
ability to free themselves of their equipment to get to the act of actually
making music and that if the mouthpiece is right for that person and that no such correlation between extraordinary effort and result exists.
Clarinetists in North America whose playing that I know of and admire - Bonade, Marcellus, Drucker, Maclane, McGinnis, Wright - played, as I understand it, traditionally styled mouthpieces that were to them efficient, comfortable and reliable in their response, articulation and timbral characteristics without needing to resort to any extraordinary efforts of torquing (twisting) the facing to play them.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2009-06-27 17:52)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-06-27 22:54
Here's an example. I talked to Franklyn Cohen some years back. He was finishing his own mouthpieces. I think he used more than one. Approximate numbers for one of his mouthpieces 10-8,
18-14, 28-24, 40-32 tip 1.28mm. He said in performance he would favour one side or the other depending on the tone he was going for. He would essentially play slightly crooked. This seems weird but one only has to look to oboists to find crooked in the mouth is more the norm.
He could change his approach during a concert for a specific purpose. I tried to duplicate his numbers on a mouthpiece but without success. Later I had Jerry Hall make some mouthpieces....the numbers near the tip were symmetrical but the final two stations were out by two. I gave this mouthpiece to friend who has played it professionally for about two years.
Freelance woodwind performer
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