 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-06-24 13:42
Hi Everyone,
I looked on the Doubler BB and did not find a whole of material on baritone sax (and I have poured of SOTW and see many familiar names). So I want to ask the many doublers on this BB for their opinion (hope GBK will allow the topic).
There seem to be more calls for to do Reed III and Reed IV than ever and I have been able to always borrow a bari. But maybe it's time to get my own.
I like the looks of the YBS 52 and the Kessler and have no real fear of eBay. So are there any recommendations for a Low A bari and will not break the bank. I know that there are now many good instruments coming from the Pacific Rim but lack some "user reports" to help me make an informed decision.
I'm set for Full Monty with a borrowed "school instrument" next month but expect to have calls when the 2009-10 season gets underway.
Thanks,
HRL
PS I like the rollers on the Kessler case BTW.
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Author: RAB
Date: 2009-06-24 13:59
For my money I would look at the Kielwerth student bari. It is durable and I would consider it a "no frills" model of the pro instrument they make.
I worked for over 35 years as a 5th reed person and I have a Kielwerth Pro bari (I had a MK VI) Some of my friends that are tenor and alto players have been happy with this instrument. You do not want to get an "off" brand on an instrument this big. A bari, due to the long distance between some of the key post need to be very sturdy in the construction of it.
I am sure there are lots of differing opinions out there and I hope this is helpful
RAB
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 14:00
Dr. Hank,
Four or five years ago, in a fit of silliness I bought (new) a Buescher BU-6 low-A bari, which is made (I believe) in Taiwan, but possibly in mainland China. Like just about every recent Chinese-made sax I've seen, it was an amalgam of Selmer, Yamaha and Yanagisawa design features, lightly-built but with reasonably good workmanship, and played fairly well. I sold it after playing a couple of gigs on it because I was thrilled with neither its tone nor its intonation, but the current owner (strictly a doubler) is quite happy with it.
I'd guess that this assessment is generally a good description of the majority of current Asian horns, and certainly their prices are good, so you might look at a few of these. They're everywhere -- you'll have no trouble finding one.
If in the future you get serious about bari, give me a yell, I have some other options more towards the professional end of the scale.
Regards,
DS, your disciple in aviation and paella..........
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 14:06
RAB,
What is an "off" brand nowadays? Your student-model Keilwerth, by the way, is not made in Germany by Keilwerth, but is made by an anonymous Asian manufacturer in one of those "off-brand" factories.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 14:10
Out of curiosity, why do you want the low A? It adds weight, complexity and cost, and is seldom or never called for. Save your money and use the old "shoe in the bell" trick when you need the A.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 14:26
I don't know about show work, Ken, but I play a lot of bari sax in jazz big bands and rock/R&B bands, where the low-A is used a fair amount and can really come in handy. Most modern big band charts call for the low A frequently; and in R&B it shows up a lot in those favorite guitarists' keys.
For a while I had low-Bb baris (an old Buescher, then a Conn 12M) and made (per instructions I found on a sax website) a "low-A extension" out of a 6" length of 4"-diameter PVC pipe, which I could shove into the bell if and when time was available (and there were no low-Bb notes to play immediately before or after!). It produced a perfect low-A, but as you can imagine left something to be desired in the convenience department. Not to mention the time I accidentally dropped the heavy piece of PVC on the tenor player's foot.........
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Author: William
Date: 2009-06-24 15:07
Hi Hank. All I have to offer is that a friend of mine owned a YBS 52 low A and loved it. At the same time, I owned a Selmer MK VI low Bb, and in comparison, the Selmer had the superior tone quality but the YBS seemed more friendly to my hands, seemed lighter (in spite of the extra A length) and put out all the sound one would ever need. Carrying it from gig to gig was made easier with a Reunion Blues fabric soft-side case.
I sold my MK VI and now borrow a YBS 52 low A model that my old middle school owns. I like it--just wish it had that light weight RB carry case.......
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-06-24 15:15
You're probably better off having the low A as it is used a lot in shows and big band charts, and once you get used to using the low A you will probably miss it when you play a low Bb bari. Low A baris are the standard nowadays - only a few companies make a few low Bb baris (Amati, Keilwerth and P.Mauriat) whereas the big names (Keilwerth, Selmer, Yamaha and Yanagisawa) make mostly low A baris.
I can thoroughly recommend any Yamaha bari (32, 52 and 62) as the keywork is very comfortable and well designed (and with adjusting screws), they speak easily across the entire range and probably have the best designed and most reliable low A mechanism of all the baris I've seen - and the general construction is strong with good cross bracing between the bell and body and the top coil. The 62 has a high F# which also gives a good solid high G when played as top B but with the high F# key open.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-06-24 15:20
Hi Everyone,
These opinions are from exactly who I had hoped would chime in. Thanks.
DS: let's talk on email about possible pro models.
Ken: The shows I have been working all seem to now call for a lot of Low As. I know the shoe in the bell trick but as I age, the left knee needs a replacement, the foot is not as agile, and I really can't see the bell target was well with my trifocals (I might put my foot into... by mistake).
A guy in a community band I play in picked up a Selmer USA low A bari for $850 recently. So I know there are deals out there.
Any Kessler experience anyone? That company has made some definite in-roads in the sax business per SOTW.
HRL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-06-24 15:32
If you're doing a lot of pit work, a Jiffy stand is a very useful bit of kit as it allows you to play bari without having to take it off the stand or use a sling which is ideal when you have a quick change to make - just tip it towards you onto two legs and it's in playing position.
http://saxophones.co.uk/acatalog/jiffystand.html
I've used one of these for years and although while it isn't the prettiest bit of kit, it makes up for that in practicality (and the base fits perfectly into the compartment in my bari case).
There's a similar design made by Adams (the percussion company) but has a single bell clamp and the base has five feet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-06-24 15:36)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 15:52
Case-wise, the lightest and most compact case for low-A baris I've found that actually offers some mechanical protection, is made by Jakob Winter in Germany (it's also one of the least expensive hard cases).
http://shop.weinermusic.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CJW2197&variation=
(there are many other vendors who sell the case, as well)
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 16:01
I have an old Selmer Super Action 80 (first series) low-A bari that I bought used, in rough cosmetic shape, for a very good price.
The first series SA-80s, for some bizarre reason, don't have the stellar reputation of the Serie IIs, but they are fantastic players. If you don't care so much for appearance, used SA-80s can be had at decent cost. Good horn.
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There are only 10 kinds of people in the world:
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-06-24 16:10
Recently I was in Musikmesse and some time I decided to do a bari round to compare most of what they had there. I tried all the main ones, some more unique ones, and a bunch of more and less known Taiwanese and Chinese in various prices.
The ones I preferred overall were Yanagisawa, Yamaha and the Selmers (SII and SIII). Selmers are probably very expensive used too, but if you can find a used Yamaha or Yanagisawa that is probably very good. I don't think it's important to explain what I liked best and what I thought of their tone since that is all subjective.
Some people liked the R&C baritone which was definiely unique. I thought it was good but didn't personally like how it played so much. The Keilwerth was good too but also the same, I didn't like it as much. I suspect maybe it had some problems since response was a bit worse (possibly the problem of un-level tone holes with those solder-on rings).
The more expensive Taiwanese (like Mauriat or Cannonball) were ok. I just didn't think they had a tone or response that was as good as the others. To me at least, some others liked the Mauriat best actually, and same for the Cannonball. They are still a lot less expensive (don't know how easy to find them used). Less known Taiwanese (sometimes direct from factoriues, sometimes from distributers) were pretty similar but not exactly the same. Some were better than others, very good even. Jupiter was also good, but I've only tried their best model (their basic model is probably the same as their altos, tenors, etc. which is less than mediocre).
Chinese are really improving. Most of the baritones weren't as good as the smaller saxophones, but still played pretty decent (build is another matter, some were ok). Considering the price, they compare ok. I couldn't find a Chinese that I thought had an "inspiring" tone, but some were pretty good. Though some weren't good. Except one I remember, the Chinese Buffet baritone, which was especially bad.
There was also a Vietnamese maker but I don't think I tried their baritone (if they had one).
I think the Kessler instruments are one of those Taiwanese/Chinese/Vietnamese, possibly choosing them at trade shows. Don't assume all Taiwanese or all Chinese are the same. They can vary a lot sometimes. The keys don't necessarily imply anything (i.e. an instrument might look like mostly a Selmer copy, but the body could be completely different).
The ABS case with wheels is usually the standard for almsot all Taiwanese baritones. Maybe several companies make it but one Taiwanese company makes it and many Taiwanese saxophone companies use cases from them.
If you want a baritone that has decent intonation, sounds ok, and is comfortable, pretty much anything relatively new will be ok (i.e. the new generation of Chinese or even better Taiwanese. Some more and can be fun, and some less. If you want something that you especially like the tone then you have to try. If you can afford (used) Yamaha or Yanagisawa that is still what I think I would recommend for a baritone. There are also the "vintage" instruments if you like them.
Post Edited (2009-06-24 17:18)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-06-24 16:34
Chris,
I have switch pretty much to Hercules stands all around (cost/value is good).
Wicked: I play a Super 80 alto (first series) that is wonderful; my MkVI is now the backup.
Clarnibass: a terrific overview and sound advice.
Thanks all,
HRL
PS Mark and GBK, the advice here is terrific. Perhaps rivaling SOTW for my questions.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-06-24 17:26
I love my TBS-52. But they're in demand and you'll have to shop for a good deal. Glad to see that you're finding work on reed III and IV parts. Almost everything I play these days is one reed only, and the other books not covered.
Allen Cole
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-06-24 20:07
Hi Hank!
Actually, I've played four baritones. In college, I played an old silver Conn in the marching band but that was before recorded history.
A low Bb Buescher, like new, was my next instrument, very well made and well fitting to my hands. It was in tune and had a basic substance to it's sound, as well as some innovative design.
The low A Buffet, I bought in a pawnshop, like new, for $1100 in 1990, had the best sound of any I've tried. It had a built in floor peg on the bottom. Unfortunately, the key layout was quite awkward. I was on the road with it for two weeks once and it performed well. The late J. Nimitz, a Buffet lover, was interested in buying it but I had sold it to another.
Next, there was a like new MKIV Selmer, late production, that I found in a small music store in Torrance, new old stock, for $2800. It plays easily and sounds good. The pearls had some sharp edges on them that needed to be rounded off which helped. An old floor stand which clamps on to the bell was tried but the Selmer, probably of fairly thin brass, was deadened noticeably by that floor stand. An old Link mouthpiece, with a brass extension glued on, worked fine on the two previously owned baritones but did not sound good on the Selmer until the extension was removed. The extension was needed on the Buescher because it had a shorter mouthpipe for old "dill pickle" mouthpieces. The moral must be: "Don't hang things on your Mouthpiece". Presently, I'm using a metal Brillhart 6*? which works great or a hard rubber Selmer for more sedate playing.
The music store was later burned down by a crazy next door bagel shop owner who did it for the insurance. He is now doing ten years.
Best Wishes,
Wes
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-06-24 21:29
Hi Wes,
Great story of Brown's Baritone Chronicles. Of particular interest is the bagel shop story but at least you got the Mark VI out in time. LOL with the ""Don't hang things on your Mouthpiece" story which is even better. But then, yp are in LA so it is not hard to imagine all sorts of adventures.
The four baris you have played are a pretty nice cross-section of the instrument world but until Yamaha and Yani (plus several other Asian companies) have made a major impact. I believe when I saw you last, we talked about this and how the whole mystique of Selmer saxes has taken a good hit.
A NOS YTS 475 has now replaced my Mark VI tenor and a Super 80 NOS alto(first series) is now my primary and the Mark VI is the backup. Not bad backup instruments. I considered selling of the Selmers and know I can get a decent price because they are in wonderful condition but after 35 to 55+ years of playing them, I could not do it.
I think I need to haunt the music stores and pawn shops in the coming days. Too bad you and DS are not closer; we could have a blast.
HRL
PS I am listening closely to Ken Shaw's advice about passing on the Low A. There are some real beauties out there with just a Bb.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-25 01:29
Dr. Hank, Wes does indeed have an eclectic mix of baris in his history, but permit me to add my current two weirdos to the list:
My low-A bari is a silver-plated Weltklang, 1950s-vintage, made by Richard Keilwerth (brother of Julius), by the company which started off as Huller in Markneukirchen, Germany, became "Weltklang" during the East German era, and then became "B&S" after the fall of the Soviet Union. Rolled toneholes, a wonderful horn.
My latest acquisition is a low-Bb Couesnon Monopoles Conservatoires, French of course, probably 1960-ish, has a bunch of dents and looks like hell but is absolutely, hands-down the best playing bari I've tried. Enormous sound, really good response and intonation, and keywork that's so fast you'd think you were playing a well-adjusted tenor.
Not sure why I bring this up, other than perhaps to make a point that there's a lot more out there than Selmers, vintage American horns and Asian instruments.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-07-06 11:19
Hi Everyone,
I have been pondering hard on the bari question and would like to add a quick twist. Since I do not have a bari now, getting even a Low Bb model makes sense in several ways (some bargains out there, do I really need the A, and I'm pretty "value conscious").
Having looked at a lot of Conn, King, Selmer Signet/Bundy, and Buescher models for auction, are there any of these classic baris with a low Bb that stand out? Also considering some of the great advice from above, are there additions?
Granted, there are usually dents and dings, the cases can be pretty scruffy, and repairs would need to be made; but which brands have passed the test of time.
I have looked hard at SOTW as well.
HRL
PS I have seen some pretty beat former school instruments but are there diamonds in the rough to be had among those?
Post Edited (2009-07-06 11:21)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-07-06 11:59
Hank,
If I was in the market for a bari I would first try Buescher for vintage and Yani for modern. My Buescher preference is early 30's for superb intonation, tonal quality, and exceptionally full sound. Of course, vintage sax guys have their particular preferences....like vintage car guys.
I'd love to get my hands on a Couesnon Monopole saxophone -- as Dave suggested. I dearly love my Couesnon Monopole clarinet. And, I've heard good reports from several sax buddies who have CM saxophones.
G.H. Huller (not to be confused with F.X. Huller) is another "sleeper". These horns may be on the rare side as they are German and the company went out of business during WWII. I recently acquired a 1930's G.H. Huller alto and I'm totally blown away with it. Without question, it's the very best alto I've played and over the years I've had Selmer (including 2 Mark VIs), Buescher, and Conn. It has features of early 30's Conn and Holton saxophones and the craftsmanship is unquestionally superior.
One thing to be aware of with Huller saxophones is their tuning. There is either a 870 (435 tuning) or 880 (440 tuning) number stamped on the body near the neck receiver. My Huller alto has 435 tuning. However, I've been able to adjust to it okay and have decent 440 intonation.
Roger
Post Edited (2009-07-06 13:25)
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2009-07-06 14:15
I second Roger's Beuscher recommendation. I had a lovely, silver 1950 Beuscher Big B Aristocrat bari to low Bb. The ergonomics were perfect for my smallish hands, and the sound and intonation were wonderful.
Sadly, I traded it away when I really, truly needed a low A horn. That's when I got my Selmer SA-80. I wish I had had the means to keep the Beuscher as well!
Don't overlook the older Conn (model 11m?) baritones if you decide upon a low Bb bari. Those things are real beasts (in a good way!), and can keep up with or beat anything else out there. Besides, if they were good enough for Gerry Mulligan, then they are probably good enough for just about anyone.
(Is Gerry's silver Conn still on display at the Library of Congress? Seeing that was really cool.)
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There are only 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary math, and those who don't.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-07-06 15:27
Roger and Wicked,
Great advice and exactly what I needed. Buescher and Conn baris seem to be around. And the sleeper advice is pretty cool.
Thanks,
HRL
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-07-06 16:02
Hank,
I think the SaxPics.com web site is still in operation. Check it out to find more detailed historical information about the saxophone brands that are of interest to you.
As I recall, when Buescher went into phased New Aristocrat production -- starting in 1932 for altos and 1933 for tenors -- which lasted until the early Aristocrats rolled out in early 1935, their sopranos and baritones continued to be in effect the True Tone model. My Buescher history is a bit rusty on the features used in their Aristocrat baritones and how they are an improvement from the True Tone model. SaxPics should have that information.
Late model True Tones -- especially 1928 to 1932 -- can be fine instruments. The very best soprano I've ever played was a 1929 Buescher. Spot on intonation and a stunningly beautiful dark sound.
I've played several earlier True Tones...going back to 1920. They were not bad horns. However, late model True Tones are superior in every way.
I've tried all of the Buescher models on either alto or tenor. My personal preference is the New Aristocrat. My 1934 New Aristocrat tenor has a "ringing" quality of sound that I have not found in the Aristocrats or 400s.
Hope you find the bari of your dreams! Please let us know how you come out.
Roger
Post Edited (2009-07-06 16:28)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-07-06 16:48
Hi Roger,
Great advice. Thanks a lot. I looked at saxpics and there are some real classics there.
I'll report on my bari adventures.
HRL
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-07 01:23
Anybody have any experience with the Conn 12M low-A bari? It's basically an 11M with a few extra inches of sheet metal grafted onto the normal Bb bell--i know a guy who plays one locally, and it sounds terrific, as Conn baris do. (er, rather, HE sounds terrific on it, and likes the horn just fine)
They're disparagingly called "Mexi-Conns" because of where they were made, and I've heard mixed things. Anybody have any experience with one?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-07 03:37
DougR, you've got it backwards -- the Conn 12M is the standard low-Bb model, the 11M is the low-A model that had a few inches of cylindrical (not conical!) tubing grafted in. I've had the former, it's a fine horn. A friend of mine has the low-A 11M, it's pretty good too, but as several folks have pointed out elsewhere (see SaxOnTheWeb, etc.) the 11M tended to have slight intonation issues by virtue of its "budget" conversion to low-A.
Both models were made in Elkhart until the early 1970s when all Conn production was moved to Mexico and quality dropped, not sure if the 11M continued to be produced in Mexico but certainly the 12M was.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-07 13:52
Thanks, Dave.
One day you'll have to post pix of the "Spiegelthal Museum of Obscure Musical Appliances"--you seem to have a good inventory of good, playable (even, as in the case of the Couesnon, spectacularly good) off-the-wall and/or unexpected stuff. Do you have a public website or anything?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-07 17:33
Thanks for the kind words, Doug! I don't have a website, mostly out of fear that the Buffet Mafia would somehow use it to hunt me down. Not to mention the Selmer Syndicate which is also out to get me..... ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-07 18:22
> Buffet Mafia....Selmer Syndicate....
It's a jungle out there.
Also mind the Amati Association, the Buescher Brotherhood, the Conn Conspiracists, the Yamaha Yakuza, the Stencil Stingers, the Boosey Hawks, the Leblanc Liberators and the Grassi Gripers, not to mention the Hirsbrunner Heretics.
(I bet there's someone upset now that I've forgotten them)
Watch your mailbox, Dave...
--
Ben
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Author: davyd
Date: 2009-07-07 20:06
Another vote for the YBS-52. I use it a lot, and it's held up well.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-07-07 20:49
I'm not sure if it's a YBS-52 model, but a friend of mine has a Yamaha bari that I've worked on a couple times, which has a really dumb octave key mechanism design that keeps getting out of adjustment. Just something to look out for.
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Author: timg
Date: 2009-07-07 22:07
tictactux wrote:
> Also mind the Amati Association, the Buescher Brotherhood, the Conn
> Conspiracists, the Yamaha Yakuza, the Stencil Stingers, the Boosey Hawks,
> the Leblanc Liberators and the Grassi Gripers, not to mention the
> Hirsbrunner Heretics.
Don't forget the Yanagisawa Yobbos.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-07-07 22:28
> Don't forget the Yanagisawa Yobbos.
Drat! Those and the Holton Homeboys! Now I know who's knocking at my do
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2009-07-08 00:51
Sometimes you can find really good saxes, including baris, with the brand name, "Whitehall." They are early Yanagisawa stencils, and sometimes show up at places like junkdude.com.
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There are only 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary math, and those who don't.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-08 01:21
all right, I'll play:
the Penzel Pishers
the Noblet Nabobs of Negativism
the Marigaux Musclers
the Rudall-Carte Rat-finks
the...aw, this is getting silly.
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