 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-16 18:24
David Blumberg wrote a really interesting comment in another thread.
<<Close to the body is not particularly American - Michele Zukovsky plays close and her style is not American.>>
I thought this was interesting because although I don't know Michele Zukovsky personally, as I know David does, what I do know about her is that although she studied for a time in Germany with Leister and now plays Wurlitzer instruments, she HERSELF is an American and so was her first teacher (in fact, she's my clarinet "great aunt" through her father and first teacher, Kalman Bloch, who is one of my "great grand-teachers").
I have also read (in another thread) that he (Kalman Bloch) once stated that Michele sounds more like Simeon Bellison than anyone. Of course, Bellison is considered a founder of the "American school" of clarinet playing, whatever that means (on the other hand, he played on German system instruments). Anyway, that's why David's comment seemed a little puzzling to me.
If her style (including the way she holds the instrument close--as I apparently do, too, looking at my YouTube videos) is *not American*, then that means that either she once *was* American in style and changed dramatically (in which case we should be able to tell what changed), or she never did play in an American style to begin with (in which case, what does that say about the "American-ness" of her father's playing or of Bellison's?)
My "grand-teacher" (Richard Pickar) had Kalman Bloch as his first teacher, too, but like Michele Zukovsky later studied in Germany, he later studied in Vienna with Rudolf Jettel on a Fulbright scholarship. Is he not an "American style" player?
For another example of a prominent American player having studied overseas, how about Charles Neidich? He studied with Russianoff (a Bellison student) and then went to study in the Soviet Union on a Fulbright scholarship. Does that make him "Russian(off)" school rather than American school?
So thinking about all this made me wonder, just what does "American style" really mean? Who's an "American-style player" and who's not? Where do you draw the line? How about Bloch and Bellison? Were they not "American style?" And, if not, what style were they?
Surely there is something more to defining the "American style" that just what instrument you play--otherwise how can one distinguish the "American style" from the French (or, for that matter, the English--they don't all play on wide bore instruments, after all)? What I want to know is, what, if anything, makes someone's playing style "American" or not?
And come to think of it, if he's reading this, I'm really curious what Greg Smith thinks about all this, because as someone who was trained in the Bonade/Marcellus tradition of (Franco-)American clarinet playing but who regularly plays on Wurlitzers in German orchestral works, he seems like he'd be in a somewhat uniquely qualified position to comment on this topic. For example, when the CSO switches to German system instruments, do they play "American style" on German instruments or do they play "German style" on German instruments? And if the latter, what makes the German style of playing different from the American style, apart from the equipment?
Post Edited (2009-06-16 19:02)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-06-16 19:16
I'll have to ask Michele if she did study with Leister as a long time ago she told me that though she played a German system Clarinet, she hadn't studied with any German players. Michele's tone is more Germanic than American to me - darker.
French/American air temperature/speed (if you can call that) is "cool air" whereas Michele and Wurlitzer speak of air as being "warm" to attain their wanted sound. Michele and I spoke about that at the Vancouver ClarFest right after Howard Klug's Masterclass.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-16 19:55
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> I'll have to ask Michele if she did study with Leister as a
> long time ago she told me that though she played a German
> system Clarinet, she hadn't studied with any German players.
> Michele's tone is more Germanic than American to me - darker.
You should ask her. I'd be interested to know. My source is a couple of old posts by Ken Shaw where recalled conversations he had with Michele and her father (one of which I linked to above).
Since both you and Ken talked to Michele yourselves, you're probably both right somehow, but there's some piece of information we're missing. For example, perhaps she made the switch to Oehler first, talked to you about it, then later took some lessons with Leister while on a sabbatical (or something like that), then talked to Ken, telling him that Leister prefers for his students to play Oehler.
> French/American air temperature/speed (if you can call that) is
> "cool air" whereas Michele and Wurlitzer speak of air as being
> "warm" to attain their wanted sound. Michele and I spoke about
> that at the Vancouver ClarFest right after Howard Klug's
> Masterclass.
Interesting! So, in other words, there's some kind of difference in voicing associated with the general German tonal concept, then. (small oral cavity = "cool air" = French/American sound; larger oral cavity = "warm air" = German sound)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-16 21:37
mrn wrote:
"I'm really curious what Greg Smith thinks about all this, because as someone who was trained in the Bonade/Marcellus tradition of (Franco-)American clarinet playing but who regularly plays on Wurlitzers in German orchestral works, he seems like he'd be in a somewhat uniquely qualified position to comment on this topic. For example, when the CSO switches to German system instruments, do they play "American style" on German instruments or do they play "German style" on German instruments? And if the latter, what makes the German style of playing different from the American style, apart from the equipment?"
---------------------------------------
While it is true that I am an American who plays music with a clarinet, I do not consider myself an "American" clarinetist. The concept of an "American style" is too broad a definition to classify in such a nationalistic way. I believe that that broad of a definition dilutes any individual musician's way of meaningfully expressing themselves. It takes away from their individual identity in a way.
Speaking of just the craft, playing German clarinets most definitely differs from playing French instruments. If traditional equipment is used, by necessity, one has to modify their playing technique in order to play either system. I've written about these technical differences and the *limitations/advantages* of each system. Anyone can search those posts out here by entering the names Smith Wurlitzer in the search engine.
(For instance I wrote in another thread:"I hold the clarinet out at more of an angle, tuck more lip over the bottom teeth and relax the embouchure. Relative to the more open French mthpc/reed combination, very little muscle support is needed due to the style of facing - one just needs to provide a seal and perfect pressure point that is lower on the facing with the bottom jaw/teeth by taking slightly more mthpc. and reed")
I would also further add that the tongue needs to be very relaxed and less stuctured for German clarinets, this in order to get the sound to "bloom" and to be able to play in tune more accurately. Why this is may relate to how the acoustics of the German clarinet evolved vis-a-vis the phonetics of the language being spoken. But that's just a guess.
As to style of music making, I prefer to speak in terms of which system *limits* my ability to get at the style and quality of the music being performed. But perhaps I can go into that more at a later time if anyone is interested.
One thing I am sure of. Whether playing German or French instruments on ANY repertoire, it would be unmistakeable WHO was playing and not what kind of equipment that they were playing it on. It's the same general idea about equipment that has been discussed many times both here and elsewhere.
Gregory Smith
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-06-17 11:58)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-06-16 22:15
Please I said in the thread we are referring to that I was talking about like at least 20-30 years ago as the line between national schools of clarinet playing has in large part vanished. This is something that my former teacher who is now around 80 years old could talk about having studied both in USA and UK. But this not something that my present teacher who is 48 years old can talk much about.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-16 22:35
Well, if you're a student of music, clarinetistry, and history, regardless of your age, you'd be derelict in your profession NOT to know many things about different styles over many decades.
Gregory Smith
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-16 23:35
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Please I said in the thread we are referring to that I was
> talking about like at least 20-30 years ago as the line between
> national schools of clarinet playing has in large part
> vanished.
I know. My post here was really more about what David said about Michele Zukovsky's style not being American. To say that an American player has a style that is not American presupposes that there is some abstract idea (that at least some people must have) of what makes someone's playing style American in character (at least in their view)--that there is a stylistic ideal that, although called "American" by some, is not defined in terms of the player's national origin (or that of their teachers), but rather, in terms of abstract musical or technical concepts. My question was directed at determining what, if anything, that ideal is (in David's mind, but in others' as well).
So I'm not necessarily talking about how Americans play today, per se, but about what people think constitutes the "American-ness" of someone's playing style--what is the American "ideal," in people's view, and how does someone whose playing arguably resembles someone thought to be a key figure in the so-called "American school" depart from this abstract ideal (toward another, more Germanic ideal).
My question directed to Greg Smith (thanks for answering, Greg, by the way) was along the same sort of lines. Basically, what I was asking was if there is an abstract ideal of a "German school" of playing, independent of the difference in instrument itself, that the CSO clarinets in trying to emulate a "German sound" apply to their playing to sound "more German." And if I'm reading what he wrote correctly, the answer, from his perspective, is basically "no"--the differences in technical approach with the Oehler instruments are *imposed* by the characteristics of the instruments themselves and the ideal stylistic considerations made are simply those that arise naturally from the music itself--in other words, you don't try to make Brahms sound more German, you make Brahms sound like what Brahms wrote and whatever instrument makes it easier to do that is the one you use (which could even theoretically be a French instrument in the case of a German composer, I am assuming). There are stylistic things about one's playing that are invariably characteristic of an individual player, but those things necessarily carry over in all of one's playing, even when one "goes German." (Am I reading you correctly, Greg? )
Post Edited (2009-06-17 00:03)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-06-17 01:36
What I should have said is that when Reginald Kell introduced vibrato in classical playing player divided into two group, those who liked it and those who didn't like it at all. Vibrato in classical playing was most of the time used in the British tradition of clarinet playing.
But the most important thing is that maybe 30 years ago or so you could more tell from the clarinet tone where the player was from but today it's much more difficult if not something that you are unable to hear at all.
Soft style players today from Germany like Sabine Meyer were not accepted in Germany 30-40 years ago. Style of Karl Leister,Yost Michael and Alfred Prinz was the thing for the German style of clarinet playing.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-17 03:24
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> But the most important thing is that maybe 30 years ago or so
> you could more tell from the clarinet tone where the player was
> from but today it's much more difficult if not something that
> you are unable to hear at all.
That's absolutely right. Regional tonal differences are much harder to hear these days and what is considered typical for a given "national school" may vary over time.
What I was asking, though, was if someone says that Clarinetist A sounds American and Clarinetist B doesn't, what does that mean?
(By the way, have a happy June 17 there in Iceland.)
Post Edited (2009-06-17 03:49)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-06-17 03:36
>> What I was asking, though, was if someone says that Clarinetist A sounds American and Clarinetist B doesn't, what does that mean? <<
Probably that clarinetist A has an American accent. But you have to wait until they finish playing to hear it.....
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-06-17 03:39
clarnibass wrote:
> Probably that clarinetist A has an American accent. But you
> have to wait until they finish playing to hear it.....
There you go!
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-06-17 03:47
mrn -
Yes, you are correct as far as I've gone. My sound and style concept has been influenced by those whom I admire that play either type of clarinet. I draw from those players of each system's clarinet - and I know from experience what is possible acoustically speaking.
But no matter how hard I might try, I still would end up sounding like myself. The German clarinet would be recognizable as the vehicle for instance, but there is no such thing as making a German clarinet sound more "German"...just better.
The bizarre thing is that Pascal Moragues of Paris plays an entirely French set-up but his playing resembles Karl Leister so much that the resemblance is uncanny. So equipment can be manipulated and adapted if the player comes to it naturally in some way.
Whatever feels and sounds natural, musically speaking, is what optimally serves the music and the player. Otherwise all you're listening to is someone who plays a French set-up, wants to sound like Leopold Wlach, and simply ends up sounding like someone playing a French system clarinet trying to sound like Vienna's Leopold Wlach.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2009-06-17 03:49)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2018-05-30 16:08
Michele plays close to her body as she has an overbite. She never did study with a German player, but really loves the sound of the German Clarinet.
Style wise, at this point 9 years later I would say that Michele's style is not "German", nor "American", just beautiful...........
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-05-31 07:55
Michele is my teacher! She has a very beautiful and deep sound. Very unique to anything else I’ve heard in person.
It’s funny you mention her overbite, as she says it’s the reason she doesn’t use double lip. She told me it’s the better way to play if you can which I think ties into her overall sound concept.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-05-31 17:50
When i was a student in the 50s I was usually able to tell what country a clarinet player was from when listening to the radio or recording. Not always of course but often. Many times I could also pick out what American orchestra was playing buy the clarinet players sound. I couldn't come close to doing that today because clarinet sound and style has merged with the availability of so many recordings, touring players, so much new equimpment available through out the world. When I gave a master class in St. Petersburg Conservatory in the 90s I was amazed at the lack of diversity in what they used and what the students had to get by on. That believe that has changed today.
Someone once wrote somewhere about the "NY sound" referring many believed was to Stanley Drucker, Russianoff responded that the NY players have a universe of sounds and he was right. Blaymen, Portney, Christman, Bonade, Russo, Glazer, Simon, Siminour, Sp?, and so many other fine players in NY playing and teaching in the 40, 50, 60s etc. NY was a universe of clarinet style and sound.
I doubt there is a single country style and sound today. Even in Germany. When i used to tour there years ago, we would read the orchestra audition news and all orchestra's then REQUIRED the German system clarinet to be used. I don't believe that's true today in many of their orchestras.
Even in America today, we have players with all degress of tone qualities. The universe has shrunk and that includes clarinet style and sound.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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