 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-06-11 08:01
I'm trying to understand how older clarinets age (actualy dry out) without use with a practical purpose in mind.
Last winter I bought half a dozen of wooden clarinets from various years of production including:
- Couesnon from 30-s
- Keilwerth from 30-s
- Penzel Mueller from 40-s
- Buffet Evette from eraly 80-s (German)
- couple more
All of them were not used for at least 20 years. They all came with loose tenon rings, on some of them I could remove the rings with a slight twist, some rings literally fell off.
Well, I thought, it's winter time, relative humidity is around 20% and when the summer comes the rings will tighten up when the wood swells.
The summer came, humidity is stable around 50% and... nothing happened - the rings are as loose as they were in winter.
If anyone of you has had vast experience with restoring the vintage clarinets not being used for awhile do you know this problem?
Is tenon rings swedging the only way to tighten up the rings in this situation? I don't see how wood can return to it's original state when the rings were tight.
I tried to extensively humidify one of the clarinets and rings tightened up but once the humidity dropped to normal the rings became loose again.
I read all the older threads on this subject and I didn't find an answer to my question.
Another question is - if all of these clarinets were used regularly over the past years would the rings be tight now and the wood would not shrink?
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-06-11 10:04
Have you tried oiling the wood? I had an old reddish couesnon that changed quite dramatically after oiling. There was a scientific article somewhere that suggested olive, peanut, then almond oil would be best.
I hope this is the right link:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=257934&t=197278
Steve
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-06-11 12:23
I don't think that oiling can bring the wood to the original dimentions.
Or... can it?
What actually changed on your Couesnon?
I tried bore oil on a couple of those barrels leaving it over night and they just changed the look and yes, became more attractive but the rings were still loose.
Since oiling is a widely discussed subject with different points of view I prefer not to use vegetable or nut oil on a wooden instrument.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-11 13:30
"I prefer not to use vegetable or nut oil on a wooden instrument."
So....what do you prefer to use?
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-11 13:41
Maybe the extreme low temperatures that occur in your area shrunk the wood over time to a degree that it may never return to the proper size.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-06-11 14:13
I think the time needed for re-oiling is proportional to the time the instrument spent in the attic, unused. Overnight certainly won't do. Try a week or two.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-11 14:22
You might be surprised at how the original dimensions return after very dry wood is properly re-oiled. Might still have to shim the tenon or bell rings, but much less than on a dried-out clarinet.
I've brought many vintage clarinets back to good playing condition, some of which were so dried out that the owners or sellers were quite convinced the instruments were made of rosewood rather than black grenadilla -- they really were reddish-colored from lack of oil.
Consider the Doctor's Products wood bore treatments -- he's a chemist and in my experience his stuff works well and is quite safe to use. He's a sponsor of the BB here. I've also used almond oil, but if you search the many other posts on the topic of bore oiling, you'll read about concerns with the acidity and potential rancidity of vegetable- or nut-based oils.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-06-11 14:31
A couple of applications wouldn't do it, if it is so dry. In fact it is important to do things gradually. Wood probably cracks because of sudden changes.
So a very light coating of the bore and the external surface and especially to exposed grain of the tenons and shoulders of the joints. If it disappears, then repeat after a couple of days. Keep repeating every few days until there is oil apparent in or on the instrument the next day. Then it is done.
The last clarinet I "rehydrated" took three weeks
Chris
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-06-12 04:50
As a desert dweller I've experienced issues with loose rings on carinets new and old, and of various sizes. We have a humid season, and it seems the wood will swell with moisture.
I see the function of the rings as preventing strain sufficient to cause cracks. I've tried having rings compressed, but this has lead to over tightening. Shimming with paper seems to be a better alternative. So long as the ring is kept from falling off, it's probably okay.
Regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-06-12 15:43
I live in Wyoming (10-15% humidity year round). Any old clarinet a person buys here is always terribly shrivelled in size with rings falling off. While I've never used oil, I do use water. I've always worried about rehydrating too quickly and causing cracks, but it has never happened.
A master technician who lived here for many years swore by taking a small pill bottle (about 3/4" diameter) and cutting a sponge off to fit in the bottle level at the top. Totally soak the sponge and place it into the bottle soaking wet, but don't push it all the way to the bottom...leave about 1/4" of free space at the bottom of the bottle, so a 1/4" of sponge is sticking out. Close it in the case and leave it for a few days. Open the case and check on it every few days. Monitor the sponge and only remove it when it is totally dry, then repeat the process. I've rehydrated approximately 10 clarinets this way and have never had any problems - all clarinets turned out beautiful. My last test was on a very old C simple system clarinet. I was worried about it due to the smaller size. I received the clarinet sans case, so I just rigged up a little case for it out of an old wine carrier (for picnics, and the like) with a bunch of cotton batting, placed my pill bottle in there, and left it. A week wasn't enough time, so I had to repeat the process. Worked like a charm.
Make sure the rings are where they are supposed to be though - even the bell ring (if present) has a "normal" position, and sometimes needs to be set BEFORE HYDRATION! Once the wood swells, the rings and such will be set.
Again, I don't know if this will work where you are, so it is something you'd have to try at your own risk, but for me, it has worked 100% of the time.
As a side note: my case ALWAYS has such a bottle/sponge in it. No commerically available products seem to work, and orange peels have yielded poor results for me. However, once I obtain hydration, it is well maintained for me by the continual use of the bottle/sponge.
Good luck in finding the solution that works for you!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-12 22:07
I also use pill bottles, tho I drill some holes in the bottom and put the cap on. I also use some of the commercial types but their output is small by comparison.
I still haven't figured out whether to hydrate first and then oil or vice versa. I am aware of a process for vacuum impregnating wood articles with polymers and then "curing" them. The process was used on bowling pins among other articles. It occurs to me that clarinet mfgrs. could use cheaper woods and treat this way and end up with superior stability.
Bob Draznik
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-06-13 00:44
Good afternoon Bob (and all)
I'm guessing you've refurbished quite a few clarinets in your time. I've done a few as well, many of them very old and the rings were quite loose. It's amazing how some clarinets can be neglected for 40 years and the rings are still tight, wood is amazing.
I have found that hydrating works best first, if you get a good amount of oil in the wood and then water, the water will push the oil out. Oil is not absorbed quite the same as water so I will allow an old clarinet to rehydrate for up to two weeks. When it seems that the water level is adequate, I'll oil and let that absorb.
If the rings are still loose, the wood never did come back all the way and I'm pretty sure I can't do much about that. Wood warps, sometimes it comes back, and sometimes it doesn't. If the wood does come back and the rings are tight, you still need to allow that wood to relax back to atmospheric conditions where you are. Like fuzzystradjazz, the humidity there is very low and you need to keep the case fairly high to accommodate the dry air. If you live where the humidity is fairly high, just allow the clarinet to sit out and relax, if the rings loosen up, they need to be fitted.
I use a device that works pretty well with rings, it shrinks them down nicely to fit tight and that gives the sockets some good support.
Bob, I have heard many things about manufactures and how they treat the wood, spin it to get the water out, throw in a dye to make it black again, but since I've never worked in a plant where wooden clarinets are made I figure all of that is only possible. I have never heard of impregnating the wood with polymers, if it stabilizes the wood which would be terrific, would it also change the tone?
Scott Brodt
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-06-13 02:45
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived oil - Bore Doctor and genuine Grenadilla oil - Grenad-Oil)
I have had a fair amount of experience with the effects of oil and water on instrument wood. A combination of an environment with high relative humidity and sequential small doses of plant oils has been most successful for me. As Scott mentions, some instruments will never return to their original configuration and are permanently warped. I once had a very fancy chamber that had probes for wood moisture level and air humidity control as well as probes for wood expansion in 3 dimensions where I tested my plant oil formulations and refined their compositions.
Using a plant derived oil or combination of oils is Nature's way of maintaining a moisture balance in oily woods. Plant oils have evolved in a special way to bind with water in amazing ways (otherwise plants could not coexist with oil and water fractions). The first layer of water is tightly bound (layer of hydration) and succeeding layers are increasingly less tightly bound and the energy to remove them becomes less. In this way plant oils buffer the water balance in oily woods (whose structure is different than non-oily wood). In this case, as in plants containing oil, the oil and water interact together to rehydrate and refine the original structure of the wood when it was made into a musical instrument.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-06-13 07:36
>> I prefer not to use vegetable or nut oil on a wooden instrument <<
Some oils can (supposedly) become rancid. But the oil from Doctor is also vegetable and is supposed to have stronger anti-oxidants to prevent that. I don't know how it's possible to prove this, but I keep using the oil from Doctor simply because I believe him and I didn't have any problems with this oil (plus I really like its smell).
For solving the problem of the loose rings, there are many methods. I considered all the methods I've heard and thought about, and prefer to glue them with shellac. Other methods can be good also, I just prefer some advantages this method has.
Post Edited (2009-06-16 10:56)
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-06-14 18:20
Stupid question here, and I know it is sorta covered in other posts, but not to my specific circumstances; and perhaps it will still help Noverbuf come up with a satisfactory answer...
Here it is:
I've owned my favorite Leblanc clarinet for about 22 years, and I bought it used (IT was around 10 years old when I bought it).
In the time I've owned the clarinet, I have never oiled it once - not inside, not outside. I keep it hydrated as mentioned earlier, and I live in a specified "high desert".
Some of the clarinets I have restored were red/brown when I started the hydration of them - very very dry and shrunken. However, each one has turned out to be a beautiful, black, tight instrument; beautiful grain, normal texture, etc., and wonderful sound - simply from water in a sponge hydration.
What is oil supposed to do that water is not accomplishing for me? I don't see any deficiencies using just water; but perhaps it is my ignorance that doesn't allow me to see the differences. Does the arid climate I live in have something do with it? Do older clarinets have less need of such treatment, and can they perhaps simply handle more abuse? (Afterall, I could see that if a clarinet made it through 30 years, that it must not have too many natural stresses, etc.) Is the oil primarily for "younger" clarinets? If so, isn't this just delaying an eventual failure? Etc. All these questions come to mind - and no answers really exist - not even on the manufacturer websites. Or...does the oil simply help the wood retain the proper humidity so the fluxuations in humidty are less severe?
Please let me restate my question a little differently:
I'm not looking for an answer on whether or not to oil...my question primarily pertains to WHAT oil is supposed to accomplish - given the results I've had without oil...what would be different if I had oiled throughout all these years?
In Kind Regards,
Fuzzy
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-06-15 01:25
(Disclaimer as above)
Oily woods - including Grenadilla wood when "dried out" loose oil as well as water. The purpose of oil in the wood is to sequester water. Water is a very transient thing unless bound to some substance - like oil in the oily woods. It has no lasting property unless buffered by binding to the oil in the wood. Perhaps you have been very lucky to have woods that have not lost a lot of oil and water can be bound to the oil left in the wood to rehydrate the wood to a previous condition. Often oil as well as water is lost in "dried out" instruments and the oil remaining is not sufficient to bind to the necessary water to fully rehydrate the wood and keep it in a hydrated state.
Oil must be present to bind to water to hold it in the wood otherwise it can be lost very easily and is in constant flux with the environment. As stated earlier - the oils of plants are designed to interact with water and bind water in a sequential energy increasing pattern to buffer the internal moisture content of oily woods. The very hydrated oily woods can loose water easily but the more layers of water removed the more energy (therefore the buffering capacity) is needed to remove more and more water. Without this buffer the wood is in equilibrium with the environment and not very stable. With sufficient oil the wood can loose or gain water within a normal range and remain structurally stable.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-06-16 10:19
Thanks for the answers, I don't know maybe those of you who had success with 'rehydration' were more lucky than me but I was rehydrating three different barrels for two ot three weeks as I remember and they did swell but once the humidy level was set to normal the wood returned to its original state. While the rings were still tight after hydration I oiled the barrels and overnight they absorbed some oil but not all. All three looked nice and tight but aftee couple days the rings were loose again. The wood was not reddish any more but with the same dimentions like when it was reddish.
Fuzzy, you asked a good question.
Doesn't any oil repel water? There were also examples on this forum of a tree carrying gallons of water through the wood.
It wasn't mentioned however that that wood was live and the clarinet is made of the dead wood. I think there is a difference here.
I also don't understand one thing, can anyone please explain this to me?
Suppose you have a new clarinet. For the more realistic scenario supose we are in 50-s? - the time when wood for clarinets was treated properly, for many years. It was treated right, the wood became stable and... dry? Is this the right word? Dry in the sence it was no longer shrinking, with proper contents of water and oil in it.
Now you had many choices what to do with that new clarinet but I would limit the possibilities two three scenarios:
- You play that clarinet for the next 59 years and in 2009 the rings are still tight. Why?
- You play it for te first ten years and store in... let's take two roots:
1. In the uncontrolled climate environment. The rings in 2009 are loose?
2. In the controlled climate environment. The rings in 2009 are tight?
- You never play your new clarinet - what a shame! - and store it for the next 59 years:
1. In the uncontrolled climate environment. The rings in 2009 are loose?
2. In the controlled climate environment. The rings in 2009 are tight?
What I'm trying to understand is how clarinet wood qualities change depending on the initial conditions. In which cases the wood will loose oil and is loss of the oil the only factor that leads to wood shrinkage?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-06-16 13:43
(Disclaimer as above)
The oil from plants (nuts included) is different than oil from petroleum sources (as some point out were plants in their history - perhaps algae blooms however). Plant and nut oils have the hydrophilic (water interaction) parts of fatty acids on the surface of the oil droplet and hydrophobic (lipid loving, non water loving) parts buried in the core. Petroleum based oils do not have this arrangement of fatty acids on the surface to interact with water.
The hydrophilic parts of the plant oil can and do interact with water and the first layer of water (layer of hydration) is very tightly bound to plant oils while succeeding layers of water are less and less tightly bound by hydrogen bonding. The amount of energy (e.g. a moisture gradient - drying conditions) needed to remove each layer of water increases as layers are stripped and a large amount of energy (or energy for a longer time) is needed to remove water layers as you get down to the layer of hydration. In this way the oil in the wood buffers the water flux - coming in and going out - of the wood in a passive way in "dead" wood. Other active processes are taking place in "live" wood to transport water in an out of wood structure in addition to the affinity of plant oils for water to maintain structure.
I cannot answer your question about newer clarinet wood and its preparation process and stability. Also, the environment in which the clarinet is stored - e.g. relative humidity, heat, cold etc., etc., may affect how much water and oil are removed from the instrument. Each part of your clarinet probably came from a different tree and each piece has different properties with respect to gaining or loosing oil and water. Oil can be lost from wood and if enough oil is lost the passive water buffering capacity of the oil in wood is diminished. The structural integrity of Grenadilla wood is dependent on a number of factors - oil, and water content being important elements.
Another problem is that many use the term "oil" to cover the gamut of preparations used on wood. Many"bore oils" are nothing more than clear and colorless mineral oil which has none of the hydrophilic qualities of plant derived oils. Not all plant oils work well on Grenadilla wood either because their structure (combination of fatty acid properties) will not allow the oil to penetrate into the wood. Also, combinations of oils may not be true mixtures but emulsions where the different oils will separate over time unless an emulsifier is present and they do not behave (water absorption properties and penetration) as a true mixture of oils.
So, any observations about "oiling" should specify the type and source of the oil used and therefore comparison of oiling observations cannot be generalized to all forms of oil used - especially if petroleum based oils are used. One of the old myths in the woodwind community is that "oil" will not penetrate Grenadilla wood - which was possibly generated by those that did not use the proper plant oils to conduct the experiment. My own objective observations with plant oils tagged with fluorescent markers is that certain plant oils and plant oil mixtures penetrate deeply into Grenadilla wood (cross sections at least 50 mm thick).
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-06-16 14:12
Dr. Omar,
I'd rank you right up there with Sharon Begley of Newsweek magazine for excellent layman's explanations of scientific processes. Bravo!
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