 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-05-25 14:55
im having a problem with what i think is a key sticking. it isnt all the time and it isnt bad, but enough to mess me up when it does happen. im just not sure what is going on.
so i started playing with the keys and mechanisms to see how they work, and my question is to see if this is supposed to happen or not.
its kinda hard for me to explain so i made need to re post and clarify.
on the upper joint, where you press your left thumb (not the register key) when i do that i see what i think people here call a "crows foot" move. there are 2 parts to it. its on the side of the clarinet. so when i push that "key" with my thumb i see that one "mechanism" pushes the other "mechanism" up.
If I press the F# key, left first finger (without the thumb pressed in the back), I see only one of the mechanisms move. the other does not. However, occasionally, when I press the F# key, I also see the left thumb key move without me moving it. it depresses as if there is an invisible thumb on it, and both mechanisms move. i am thinking this shouldnt happen. and if not, what is wrong and how do i fix it?
thank you, i hope you understand what i mean. i have recital in a few weeks and i need to figure this out.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-25 15:24
J-L, As I read your description, you have nothing to worry about. The purpose of the 2 "lever -layer" action of your F/C thumb ring to actuate the F#/B pad is very normal. On soprano cls this ring is not [?seldom?] equipped with a spring, as it is on the larger cls having "plateau" [covered] keying . So, it is "loose" to go where it wishes when playing the F# [lowest space] with the L H index finger. The fact that it "flops" indicates no binding and perhaps adequate lubrication, so Relax. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-25 16:45
To clarify some terms:
The crow's foot (or how I call it - bird's foot) is not what you describe. For most clarinets, if you look at the right pinky F/C key, you will see another piece connected (soldered) to it (right under where you press). This piece is pressed when you press the right pinky E/B key. This piece is called the crow's foot, since it has a shape pretty similar to a crow's foot.
What you describe is called a linkage. It means a linked key, which is operated by actually pressing another key. In this case the linked key, the F#, is also a regular key, but it is operated with a linkage by the left hand thumb.
Now to your problem, it might be normal. Some clarinets don't have a spring for the left hand thumb key, so in playing position, it is only in its place (i.e. not pressed) from gravity. Some clarinets have a weak spring for this key too. I assume yours doesn't have a spring.
When you notice the thumb key moves when you press f#, is it always in the same playing position? If you hold your clarinet upside down to playing position, gravity will make the thumb key pressed, when F# is pressed. In playing position it shouldn't raise though. It's possible that there is type of dirt on the linkage cork that causes the keys to stick, so the thumb key moves in playing position too, but this is unlikely since this linkage has a bit of sliding (though still possible in theory).
I hope this helps.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-05-25 17:15
thanks for clarifying the terms for me. the thumb key (F) does move when holding the clarinet in playing position when the F# key is pressed - essentially, playing an E without me having to press the thumb key.
my clarinet is a Lyrique. i dont think it has a spring.
do you think some key oil and cleaning cork between where the 2 mechanisms touch will help?
Post Edited (2009-05-25 17:16)
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-25 17:19
jan, it's absolutely no problem unless fingering F# actually gives you an E while playing. (Which it's not going to do, is it? You would need your thumb to be on the hole!) Movement of the thumb ring on its own is nothing at all to worry about.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-25 17:46
Does the ring key for LH1 stick down when playing F to open G?
Play F-G slowly just by closing and lifting your left thumb. If you feel there's any delay in the LH1 ring key rising (and you get an F# instead of G), then the cork on the underside of the upper part of the linkage (connected to the LH1 ring key) could be damaged or sticky, or of an unsuitable material as the end of the thumb ring linkage (underlever) could be chewing through the cork on the overlever making it foul or stick.
Play E-F# slowly and see if the thumb ring lifts when you take your thumb off - if it remains down it will also indicate the linkage cork is sticky or damaged.
Buffet B12s (and others) were notoriously bad for the sticking thumb ring as they went through a phase of using very soft artificial or synthetic cork almost everywhere which compressed and became sticky and lead to many complaints.
But this was easily solved by removing the fake cork (either 'Arco' or 'Syco') and replacing ot with rubberised cork (Rubco or Gummi-kork) which didn't compress as much and didn't get chewed up by the end of the underlever connected to the thumb ring. Consequently both Buffet and Schreiber ditched the use of artificial cork for this (and the LH F/C) linkage and used Rubco instead.
Also, coating the face of Rubco with graphite (from a soft pencil) or sticking on a piece of self-adhesive thin Teflon sheet made it work much more smoothly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-05-25 17:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-25 19:18
They were psychotic to have used the stuff considering all the grief it caused!
But that's the problem with using new materials - you only find out how well or poorly they perform through everyday use. They may work well in some applications but be problematic or completely useless in others and only trial and error shows that.
'Syco' is uniform in density and texture but is spongy, 'Arco' is similar has some cork chips mixed into it (only a small percentage of the volume is cork chips) and is also spongy, and 'Rubco' is very dense and hard wearing, but not ideal for open standing keys as it's too noisy, but ideal for use on linkages where there's high and concentrated pressure and under adjusting screws.
Some makers use reconstituted cork which looks like the same stuff used for cork floor tiles, but this too isn't great as it breaks and crumbles easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-05-25 19:26)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-26 06:37
>> jan, it's absolutely no problem unless fingering
>> F# actually gives you an E while playing.
Of course it won't actually play an E unless you also close the thumb tube, but the problem is it will give a different feel to this key depending on when you press it. Sometime just closing a hole, and sometimes pressing a ring. Some players might not be bothered by that but I would prefer to have that repaired.
>> do you think some key oil and cleaning cork between
>> where the 2 mechanisms touch will help?
If the problem is partly because of something binding, then oiling might help as a temporary fix but it's really much better to repair the cause of the problem instead of band-aiding the problem. If the problem is a sticky linkage cork, then cleaning might help, maybe permenantly but more likely only temporary. Some synthetic corks tend to get sticky not from any dirt but just by themsleves. I had a sticky cork on a clarinet and cleaning always helped temprarily but only when I changed it the problem was gone.
Post Edited (2009-05-26 06:42)
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-05-26 12:19
thanks everybody. looks like i may have to take a trip to a repair tech. ive never had a repair tech. my teacher suggests Leonards music. anyone hear of it?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-05-26 22:14
Most likely a sticky cork, that drags the thumb ring closed when the F# key is pressed. It may be annoying but it will not affect play.
"...do you think ... cleaning cork between where the 2 mechanisms touch will help?"
Yes.
Get a narrow strip of ordinary paper and dampen the end with alcohol &/or lighter fluid. Drag that through the linkage while applying a little opening force to the F# key (i.e. press down on the linkage part).
If that does not work, do the same, but this time with not the solvent, but with talcum powder rubbed into both sides of the paper, and all surplus shaken off.
These measures may be temporary or permanent. If temporary, get that linkage silencing material replaced. An ideal material depends on the geometry of the keys on each particular instrument.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-05-27 14:09
i sure wish it was actually a bigger problem so that i could clearly know what was going on. its very slight, but when it happens i loose my train of thought or i dont make a smooth transition from one note to the next.
i tried cleaning between the 2 links last night and i think it helped some but im not satisfied yet. i think i might have to let a tech look at it.
thanks for all the help guys.
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