 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-24 16:37
Are there any board members familiair with both the standard Boehm R-13 and the full boehm R-13 with low Eb?
I know all keywork pro and cons but what about sound?
What differences can I expect in sound and playability compared to the standard R-13? e.g. a more resonant sound?, added resistance?
Thanks, Jeroen
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-24 16:39
Sorry that I can’t be of help regarding the sound, but could you be so kind to tell me its contras?
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-24 16:51
The keywork is more complex, the instrument is heavier and you lose some alternate fingerings in the altissimo. Well, that are the cons I guess...
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-24 17:12
Hmm, nothing that wouldn’t make me change to Full-Böhm! :-)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-05-24 18:35
I've no experience with such instruments, but would expect the sound to be subtly different owing to the extra length of tube. Even when you aren't playing with all fingers down, this has the capabiity to resonate: see Jack Brymer's book, where he makes an analogy between the tube below the open tone holes and the pipes you find under xylophone bars.
I would however say that there is one big reason not to use such an instrument, which is that the full Boehm uses an articulated Gsharp. Although this buys you an easy Fsharp-Gsharp trill, you pay the price of not being able to use the "long" fingering for F above the stave. This is much the most stable fingering, especially if you have to produce the note pp, and I couldn't contemplate living without it.
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Author: John25
Date: 2009-05-24 18:53
I would like to disagree with you, John. I have used clarinets in A & Bb for over 40 years and have never missed the "long" F. The C#/G# hole is in the correct place, and this means that the normal-fingered high F is therefore much better and more stable then on a normal clarinet, where the hole is too high up the instrument.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-24 19:07
John:
I’ve only used a bass clarinet with articulated G# - where’s the connection of not being able to use the long high f fingering to articulated G#? On the bass I very often use the long and it works just fine…
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-24 19:49
I thought that articulated c'#/g''# meant that when you put down R1 or R2 the c'#/g''# key closed. That would certainly rule out not just long f''' but also the normal top b'''b fingering... and you can't play middle c' quarter-sharp and some multiphonics but that wouldn't be a problem for most.
When I've played a full-Boehm the sound has certainly been a bit stuffier - but it's hard to compare apples with apples since I've never played an R13 or a Festival full-Boehm...
f''#-g''# trill isn't a big problem, is it? Just trill L1... (it's b-c'# that's the tricky one.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-24 21:42
You will lose the altissimo Bb fingering of xxxC#/G#|xxxF/C, but you can play that top Bb as upper register C (xxx|xxxF/C) with the left thumb off the thumb hole but still on the speaker key.
For altissimo F, you can always use the short fingering (oxxC#/G#|oooAb/Eb) and add the throat G# or A key to make it speak easier. I noticed on several R13s I've tried, the short fingering for altissimo F isn't great on them, but can be improved with the throat G# or A keys.
With the articulated C#/G# and the extra touchpiece for RH2, you can do a top E-F trill with RH2 which has less chance of fatigue than trilling with your LH pinky.
The forked Eb/Bb mechanism makes getting around in remote keys much easier than using the side or long Bb (or A#) fingering, C-Eb and G-Bb is done by lifting LH2 only.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-24 22:07
I've had some experience with 3+ F B's, but not an R-13, still have my Selmer RI. I agree with the above discussions of fingering diff's, and except for "model" diff's, only the "resonance character" of the low E [perhaps also the low F] due to change in ventings, were of concern to me. I enjoy playing where the low Eb in needed, on both sops and basses. . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-05-24 22:34
Oliver's description sounds right to me: I thought articulated G# on the clarinet is to make it consistent with Sax fingering, where the G# key closes whenever any of R1/R2/R3 is down. I can't understand how this could be different on aero145's bass.
Oliver's suggestion for trilling L1 to do F#-G# trill is how I do it too (seems to work better if the F# is played with R1 and the key between R2 & R3). For the register below, I play B with R3 rather than the normal R2 and then just trilling the C# key gives a reasonable result. As for Chris P's suggestion of normal top F fingering plus Aflat key, I still think this isn't as stable as long F: with this register, there's some risk you're going to get the harmonic above, and it's so reassuring to know that this isn't going to happen with long F. I just wish there was an equivalent for high E - too easy to overblow to A.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-24 23:24
John, none of the R’s has an affect on the G# key - it’s a 60’s Leblanc.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-25 05:41
>> I can't understand how this could be different on aero145's bass
Some bass clarinets have a regular key (with no linkage) for C#/G#. Some (like the new Buffet) have a linkage key but without the arm that connects from right hand stack keys. So there's no articulated C#/G#.
>> You will lose the altissimo Bb fingering of xxxC#/G#|xxxF/C, but
>> you can play that top Bb as upper register C (xxx|xxxF/C) with the
>> left thumb off the thumb hole but still on the speaker key.
This is a pretty good fingering for Bb but another decent one is the same as the F, but add throat Ab key (the same as what you suggest to make a better F).
>> That would certainly rule out not just long f''' but also the normal
>> top b'''b fingering... and you can't play middle c' quarter-sharp
>> and some multiphonics but that wouldn't be a problem for most.
Yes, not being to do some fingerings is why I would never prefer an articulated C#/G# on both soprano and bass clarinets.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-25 08:38
With the articulated C#/G# and the extra touchpiece for RH2, you can do a top E-F trill with RH2 which has less chance of fatigue than trilling with your LH pinky.
Try the normal high E and use the R1 side Eb for the trill, it's a ripper.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-05-25 15:36
My full Boehm Buffet (R-16-1/2, or so) has no low Eb, but I can, perhaps, share some insights:
FIRST
The articulated G# is addicting. After having switched to an RC several years ago, I still find that I'm imprecise with my left pinky C#/G#. I'd come to rely on it closing when my right hand touched the "spectacle" key/rings on the lower joint. Honestly, I still have to woodshed fast passages involving G# --bits that should be "in my fingers" and need no special attention.
ALSO,
Having the alternative Bb5 (and in-tune) Eb4 fingering XOX'|OOO is very helpful.
SECOND
Since the right hand closes the G# key, you simply use the throat G# key to act as the alternative 2nd register hole for the LONG F. It works fine, and it works on your standard 17/6 instrument.
FINALLY
My Full Boehm Buffet is just as variable in its responsiveness, intonation and sound quality as any other line of Buffets. It is just a whole lot harder (impossible) to gather 24 of them in a room so that you can find a great one.
Bob Phillips
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-25 16:51
...on the other hand: a 'full-Boehm' clarinet (is there another term for it? I really don't like using 'Boehm' for something Boehm had nothing to do with...) has a wonderful range of gentle, pure dyad multiphonics that a 'plain Boehm' doesn't have. Once you've played them you can't forget them...
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-25 17:04
Full-Klosé sounds a bit odd Still, more right than Full-Böhm, you’re correct.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-25 17:14
And it doesn’t sound a single bit better in German
Voll-Französisch(es)
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-25 17:15
I reckon a full Boehm R13 and standard 17/6 (or 18/6) R13 will sound as different as comparing two standard wooden R13s as not all wooden clarinets will be identical to each other as that's an impossibility.
But if you like R13s and like all manner of gadgets, a full Boehm R13 will be right up your street.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-25 17:16
aero: Especially not if you're making recordings.
OK, I'll run away now...
Post Edited (2009-05-25 19:26)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-26 06:38
The only disadvantage that is really important for me is the loss of the long F and F# in the altissimo. Thanks all for giving some alternate fingerings for these notes.
I like the fork Eb/Bb very much. I own a partial full boehm R-13 A for a week now and already using this option almost automatically.
The articulated C#/G# is not that important for me now but that may change.
The left-hand Eb is quite 'standard' nowadays and I use it regularly.
There is a chance I can try a full-boehm R-13 Bb within a few weeks.
I hope it will be a good match with my R-13 A, especially because of the extra length. I will keep you informed about the results.
Jeroen
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-05-26 11:49
Oliver: is that because of key noise? If not, I guess I didn’t completely understand you… ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-05-27 18:23
That long F is something I would miss dearly..especially in orchestra.
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