 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-05-15 22:23
Some stores who store and display siver plated products include a piece of blackboard white chalk. This is said to absorb sulphur based air impurities and retard the tarnishing of silver. It may be rubbish.
I know there are activated carbon strips for the same purpose but wonder if anyone is or has tried including a piece of chalk in their clarinet case if their clarinet is silver plated.?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-05-16 04:25
Who would want a chalky residue or pieces of chalk in their case?
That would be a big problem in itself. Maybe if your Clarinet is in a display case, but not if you are moving the case around (as in clarinet case, not display stationary case). Would be asking for trouble even if it did help prevent tarnish.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-16 07:15
As I said in a recent post, a small lump of pure camphor in the case prevents tarnishing and smells nice. I put it in a photo canister and punch holes in the top. Guess you could do the same thing for chalk.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-16 14:12
AHOY you chemists !!, not knowing what was the composition of chalk [as in blackboard use], Google had the answer, its CaCO3, calcium carbonate [calcite], finely divided particle-wise, made from ?sea shells !! I rather doubt it has much ad[or ab] sorbent capability, however there might be some reaction with acidic sulfur compounds, such as H2S. Other S absorbents or activated carbon should be more effictive, IMHO [but please HELP]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-16 14:37
The only tarnishing problem I have had is with an old Selmer 9* silver plated clarinet which I do not use anymore. It's keys have turned almost grey from non-use. With all of my other Leblanc, Buffet and Yamaha silver plated clarinets--as well as one R13 in gold--as I long as I play them occassionally (as with my effer & C clarinets), I have no problem with tarnishing or worn ring surfaces. No additives carried in my cases or extra care like wiping the keys or even occassional polish cloths--just everyday use with swabbing, etc. Maybe I'm just lucky.......
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-05-16 14:40
Maybe what you thought was chalk was moth balls.
Bob Draznik
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-16 14:51
Wikipedia describes camphor as "a terpenoid with the chemical formula C10H16O." Why that should prevent tarnishing and also (according to Wikipedia) rusting I'd be interested to know from one of the chemical experts on this board.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-16 15:48
"The only tarnishing problem I have had is with an old Selmer 9* silver plated clarinet which I do not use anymore. It's keys have turned almost grey from non-use."
Are you sure this wasn't nickel plated? That turns grey and can only be polished up to a bright shine by machine buffing whereas silver plate will turn blue-black and can be cleaned with any liquid silver polish by hand.
The matching set of Series 9*s I've got had been cased up for around 20 years, and the silver plating is immaculate on them when they came to me, and didn't take much to bring back up to a brilliant and practically brand new finish.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-16 17:08
Hi beejay - being only a chem eng, I dont qualify re: terpene chemistry. I looked briefly at the Wiki ref. and then went to the Answers.com ref. which has more info than I [and others] may ever want. Cam, however is a ketone [=O] which might have some reactivity, and a few examples of chem reactions are given, but in my highly unskilled opinion, likely no reactivity with trace conc's. of S cmpds. Perhaps, as BobD suggested, its the odor which works !! {HELP} Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-05-18 14:47
I suspect camphor is acting as a corrosion inhibitor (sort of an anti-catalyst which forms a thin film on the metal surface). A quick Google seems to confim this. Anyone?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-05-19 11:48
The moth balls are put there in an attempt to prevent moth destruction of the pads.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-19 12:54
>>Are you sure this wasn't nickel plated? That turns grey and can only be polished up to a bright shine by machine buffing whereas silver plate will turn blue-black and can be cleaned with any liquid silver polish by hand.
>>
Fortunately, there's no need to wear down nickel plating with machine buffing. Happich Semi-Chrome Polish, sold in a tube at hardware stores, does a beautiful job of restoring the shine to old nickel silver. Use Semi-Chrome the same way you'd use silver polish.
The main reason I haven't tried camphor is that then my case would smell like ... camphor. For silver-plated clarinets and saxophones, storing the instrument in a closed case with a 3-M Silver Protector Strip (sold in stores that sell sterling silver tableware) has worked well for me. The bass saxophone gets two strips!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2009-05-19 13:08
Regarding moth balls - years ago, at least one manufacturer of silver plated coaxial cable connectors packaged each connector with a mothball to prevent the silver from tarnishing. It seemed to work.
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-05-20 02:20
But what is the moth ball made of, camphor or naphthalene? Could be either.
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2009-05-20 10:57
Rusty,
I don't know fos sure. It could also have been paradichlorobenzene as well as those you mentioned.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-20 13:50
So something in camphor mothballs seems to be protecting silver. But is there anything in there that might be harmful to wood or plastic? By the way, my original reference was to pure camphor, not chemical mothballs, and since camphor seems to work for me, I would guess that is the active ingredient.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-20 13:53
As L V said, a "newer" moth repellant is PDCB, and is a somewhat relative of the "older" [quite pure] naphthalene, as I recall a 3 ringed aromatic hydrocarbon, a benzene derivative. Strong odor, I used it to keep skunks etc out of garages !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-21 17:49
PDCB (Paradichlorobenzene) is a chlorinated hydrocarbon, chemically related to several pesticides that have been taken off the market due to their toxicity. Having worked as an investigative legal researcher on the old Agent Orange cases, where I read and reported on more than a quarter of a million pages of Vietnam-era documentation in one year, I would never consider storing a chlorinated hydrocarbon pest control product in my clarinet case.
My husband recently retired from a 28-year career as an attorney in the Environmental Protection Agency's Pesticides Division headquarters. I quit my legal research job to avoid a possible conflict of interest when he began prosecuting chlorinated hydrocarbon cases. He now does pro bono legal work for the NRDC (National Resources Defense Council). He agrees that we don't need any of the remaining, legal chlorinated hydrocarbon pest control products in our home.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-21 19:01
How about baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), I believe this absorbs moisture and some other vapors? People frequently put an open box in their refrigerators to reduce odors, I think.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-05-21 19:08
(Disclaimer - I sell an anti-tarnish product - Gleam)
You really do not want the chlorinated hydrocarbons in or around you clarinet case, camphor either unless you have a pest problem. Silver tarnish is caused by a reaction with sulphur producing the black silver sulfide compound. Chalk won't work either at reducing tarnish. You really should stick with what the silver people recommend which is activated carbon such as the 3 M strips which are 60 lb paper with activated charcoal slurry dried on the surface which is good in a clarinet case for about 1 month with opening and closing or several months sealed up tight. Newer chemical scrubbing compounds (e.g. in Gleam) remove sulfur and a few other nasty compounds which react with silver ions and are more long lasting than activated carbon but in total it is the mass of the anti-tarnish agent that determines longevity.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-21 20:12
TKS, Omar, "depend on the proven ad/absorbers for your cl's sake", Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-22 14:22
Baking soda (a common ingredient in cookies -- the edible kind, not the computer kind!) has the great advantage of safety, and might help control odors in old cases. I have no idea whether it would slow down tarnishing (haven't tried it). But, baking soda couldn't do any good sealed up in a bottle. People who use baking soda in the fridge cut the top of the box off or leave it open. For use in a clarinet case, how would you keep the powder from spilling all over the case and into everything (including the clarinet) while still exposing the air in the case to the baking soda? I'm happy with the 3-M strips. Since they're pieces of paper, there's never a problem with spillage and mess.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: JWBLennon
Date: 2009-05-23 01:30
What is wrong with Campor in the case? I agree I would not want the hydrocarbon type mouthballs in a case but Campor has to be ingested to be harmful. I doubt that what little bit of residue that would be on the surface of the keys would pass throught he skin. I mean they still use campor in over the counter analgesic skin creams so the skin must act as a good barrier agaisnt absorbtion???? Camphor seems rather safe for long term storage. I do not think anyone would want their case if they where doing regular gig's to smell like Bengay cream!LOL I always thought analgesic athletic creams and their odor where to fellow band geeks like cryptonite is to superman!LOL
Life is hard so play hard!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-24 13:58
Safety isn't why I don't use camphor. I never investigated whether or not camphor is safe to use in a clarinet case because I hate the powerful smell of camphor so much that old-fashioned mothballs are out of the question.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2018-08-12 07:56
I just got a couple of the 'Gleam' packets but there is no indication as to long one might expect them to be effective. Would be helpful to know!
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2018-08-12 15:53
Disclaimer (I sell an anti tarnish little sachet to prevent tarnishing)
I have been asked by customers how long this product should last before replacement. The product is an industrial air scrubbing collection of air semi-permeable tiny beads that are mostly used in conjunction with fruits (tomatoes and bananas) where ethelyne oxide accelerates ripening. The compounds in these little beads absorbs ethylene oxide and also sulfur compounds in the air. Sulphur is present in air when wood, coal, gasoline etc. are burned so it is a byproduct of combustion or as spewed out by volcanoes (beware Hawaii clarinet players).
But, to the question. It depends on how much you open and close your case mostly or if you are in an urban environment with a lot of air pollution. In general it depends on the mass of absorbent material. In my observations the activated charcoal coated paper strips (3 M) last about a month with daily opening and shutting the case. My sachets have about 100 times the mass but are not as efficient at scrubbing sulfur compounds as activated charcoal but last about 3 months for me at preventing tarnishing. The beads are in a Mylar packet and can be in contact with anything in the case with no harm.
L. Omar Henderson - Doctor's Products
www.doctorsprod.com
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