 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: xeys_00
Date: 2009-05-10 17:16
I thought I'd ask all the experienced players about something my Prof kept getting on me about in my last lesson. I was trying to tongue the notes on the page(saying ta, ta, ta), and he told me to stop the chewing motions he saw. Stop Chewing. Hmmm. Those motions were me tonguing the notes. The only other way I can see to tongue is to flick the end of the reed with my tongue up and down... I'm trying not to get the same admonition again at my next upcoming lesson, and I've been trying not to do it today during practice, but it always happens, and it seems it's a natural thing when I'm tonguing. I think I must be missing the concept; can someone help me out?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-05-10 17:47
Tonguing is ONLY moving the tongue AWAY from the reed. That is, you have your tongue on the reed and the air all pressurized in you mouth and ready to go, then you just pull your tongue back off the reed (ever so slightly).
That's IT!!!! Staccato is just much shorter durations of "tongue off the reed."
Hope that helps.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-10 17:54
Tip of tongue to tip of reed, and a little bit of air between each note. Does that make sense?
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-10 18:06
Practice tonguing while looking in a mirror. Do not move your jaw, chin or lip muscles in any way. Just move your tongue--as described above. It shouldn't take too long to shake this bad habit even though it feels "natural" to do so.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-05-10 18:18
> Tonguing is ONLY moving the tongue AWAY from the reed.
This is an excellent way of putting it. I'll try and remember that for future use, thanx.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-05-10 18:35
Oh, and telling someone /not/ do to something, and their trying /not/ to do it, rarely works! We must work together in these situations to try and find something /constructive/ to do. Hope it goes well for you, let us know!
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2009-05-10 23:30
Try using "dee dee dee" rather than "ta ta ta". That may remove some of the jaw movement problem. Moving your jaw, or chewing, effects the tone of tongued notes and often causes you to start the tone under pitch, like the notes are being scooped.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-05-10 23:41
johng wrote:
>
Johng - please update your email address o0n the BBoard ASAP. All people posting here are required to have a valid email address on file; you can choose whether or not to show it to the public.
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2009-05-11 00:06
While playing a throat tone G, place your left hand fingers on your cheek bone and your thumb on your jaw near the chin. Then tongue away until you can make the jaw movement stop. That should fix it.
Good luck
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-11 01:46
Check out my website and look at the clarinet article page. I have several articles on tonguing and clarinet basics, maybe something in there will click. Your teacher is right though, you shouldn't have any motion in your mouth or throat when you tongue. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-05-11 16:15
btw. you are not actually saying "tatata" when you are tonguing. that does make the jaw move. just use the tonguemovement "as if" you where saying ta-ta-ta.
/niclas
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Author: xeys_00
Date: 2009-05-11 19:48
Well, I'm working on my little problem, and it looks like I will have to start all over again with my clarinet, in a way. It takes immense concentration to not chew, and I am honking a LOT. Like, every other note. I'm trying to build up some air pressure, but it turns out that it's too much, so I sound like a flock of geese.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-11 20:31
xeys_00 wrote:
> I'm trying to build up some air
> pressure, but it turns out that it's too much, so I sound like
> a flock of geese.
Actually, you don't need to build up any more air pressure than you need to pronounce the letter "t" or the letter "d." When you pronounce either of these letter you build up pressure and release it--it just that we don't usually think of ourselves as doing that.
I think your chewing issue may be due to the fact that you are somehow "pronouncing" the "a" in "ta" or "da" when you tongue the reed. Perhaps if you think in terms of something like "tuh" or "duh" (where you are less tempted to open your mouth) it will help rid you of this habit. "Ta" and "da" sound very musical when sung (and if you were singing "ta," you would drop your jaw), but they really don't resemble what you should actually do with a clarinet. I'm just guessing here, but that may be what's throwing you off.
Remember that it's only the consonant ("t" or "d") that matters here, not the vowel. You're not pronouncing a syllable, but operating an air valve (your tongue).
I would practice in front of a mirror to work toward eliminating this problem.
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Author: xeys_00
Date: 2009-05-11 21:41
I'll work on all that has been said here. I'm gonna put everything else on hold till I get this somewhat under control.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-05-11 22:12
> I sound like a flock of geese
Honking like a goose? Try taking a little less mouthpiece.
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Author: xeys_00
Date: 2009-05-12 18:42
Ok, I have been working on the lowest register tones, and I can do long quarter notes(very slowly), with what feels like no chewing. I'm probably touching the reed too much, but I'm aware of what I need to do, and I'm slowing down my playing for proper articulation. I wish I had been taught this first, but I'm gonna fix it before I am permanently a chewer. Feels like I'm starting all over again, honestly.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-12 20:54
Try playing double lip. I'm not sure why this works, but it usually does when I've had chew-tonguing students. After you get everything under control, you can try going back to single lip if you like.
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Author: xeys_00
Date: 2009-05-12 22:25
I tried it, and the chewing is gone, and I've got my sound back. I could only do it for a few mins, before I was hurting too much though. How do I keep from biting a hole in my upper lip???
Post Edited (2009-05-12 23:23)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-13 00:35
xeys_00, good question. When I was in college many years ago, my professor played with double lip, but he didn't push it on his students. I tried it, didn't care for it, and gave it up. I recently took it up again, partly because I was having some problems with a top tooth. This time I stuck with it and I'm having more success.
I've heard that playing double lip may require a slightly softer reed. I have good luck with no. 3 Rico Reserves with my M15, although I know that everyone is different. I've experimented with my embouchure, and have one that I think works for double lip.
Several months ago, there was a discussion on this board about different embouchure styles. When I learned to play over 40 years ago, every teacher (at least every teacher I ever had) taught a very tight, pulled back, smile-like embouchure. This approach may work for some, but it doesn't work for everyone. I now use a more "pushed forward" embouchure, something like what some used to call the soft-cushion embouchure. It's somewhere between the totally "pushed forward sucking a milkshake" sax embouchure, and the traditional "smile" clarinet embouchure. This way, I feel like I have comfortable cushions on my lower and upper teeth, and I don't feel like I'm biting.
Since summer break is almost here, you might want to do some experimenting during your vacation. If you decide to take up double lip, do it a little at a time. Before you know it, it will start to feel comfortable. Proponents of double lip claim that you get a very beautiful sound with it, and I think I agree.
Some instructors are very rigid and want you to do things their way, while others are more accepting of alternatives. You could try adjusting your embouchure, trying a slightly softer reed (if necessary), and playing double lip for the next week. See what your prof has to say at your next lesson.
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Author: lj
Date: 2009-05-13 01:12
@ Tony Pay:
Thank you; your metaphor discussion was quite helpful. Tonguing is my nemesis (okay, one of my nemeses). I am always grateful for your articulate discussions of, well, nearly everything--I'm more of a linguist than a musician, and you combine linguistic skills with musical skills brilliantly--it's really enlightening. Thanks!
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2009-05-13 01:15
Dileep said, "Slur everything."
I'm a bit naive I know, but was he just being facetious, OR maybe he actually said that to spur some thinking? I remember my own teacher saying that she wasn't taught to tongue until she'd been taking lessons for quite some time. She said too much stress is put on articulation too early, and that good sound should come long before we try to learn good articulation.
Would some of you "experienced" players comment on this aspect?
CarlT
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-13 01:33
From the way you describe things I think your reeds might be too hard. Try a bit softer.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2009-05-13 14:02
As a couple of other posters have indicated, articulation is not the tongue striking the reed, rather it's the tongue leaving the reed and allowing it to vibrate again.
My first teacher was a Bonade student and used an exercise of his called "stop tonguing" to correct some problems with tongue placement. For me at least, it had the added benefit of both increasing the speed of my articulation and giving me a very nice "secco" articulation (think Midsummer Nights Dream or any Mozart wind serenade).
It works like this. On a C Major scale (or any scale you'd like) strike the reed with your tongue like you normally would but do not release your tongue. Continue to blow as you normally would, move your fingers to the next note in the scale, release your tongue for the shortest time possible, return your tongue to the reed and repeat the process up the scale.
Concentrate on what syllable you're thinking of, where the tongue is being placed on the reed, and be conscience of trying to decrease the total overall range of motion of your tongue while performing the exercise.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-05-16 14:05
Carl wrote:
>> I remember my own teacher saying that she wasn't taught to tongue until she'd been taking lessons for quite some time. She said too much stress is put on articulation too early, and that good sound should come long before we try to learn good articulation.>>
Yes. The fundamental action in clarinet playing is to produce continual excitation and vibration of the reed. That comes about as a result of (1) continually maintained pressure inside the mouth, usually resulting in (2) continual airflow through the instrument. More fundamentally, you can look back down the causal chain that precedes (1), in order to emphasise the importance of the combination of abdominal and back muscles that generates the pressure.
Everything else, including diaphragm flexion and reed/tongue contact, constitutes a modulation of that fundamental action. And if that fundamental action is not central to someone's playing, then their playing is almost guaranteed to be defective.
Therefore -- because you cannot modulate something that isn't there -- articulation is subsidiary, and concentration on it may usefully come some way into a student's development.
Tony
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-05-16 16:12
on the other hand, the only way to tongue well is when havng a proper voicing and airflow, so learn to tongue early in the learningprocess helps the rest as much as the rest(air, flow, etc) helps a good tongue.
/niclas
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-05-16 17:01
Niclas wrote:
>> on the other hand, the only way to tongue well is when havng a proper voicing and airflow, so learn to tongue early in the learningprocess helps the rest as much as the rest(air, flow, etc) helps a good tongue.>>
All of this is, of course, up for reconsideration in a particular teaching situation; as I've so often remarked here, it's impossible to say ANYTHING in this medium that applies to all situations.
In this regard, notice that I was very careful to say (my added capitals):
> Therefore -- because you cannot modulate something that isn't there -- articulation is subsidiary, and concentration on it MAY USEFULLY come some way into a student's development.>
You repeat the first part of what I said ("articulation is subsidiary") in your own words, prefaced by "on the other hand'" (why?):
> the only way to tongue well is when having a proper voicing and airflow,>
...and then make the blunt assertion:
> so [to] learn to tongue early in the learning process HELPS the rest as much as the rest (air, flow, etc) helps a good tongue [again, my added capitals].>
It's an assertion I doubt, because I far more commonly hear something that has both tongue and airstream quite wrong, and the student unable to disentangle the mess -- perhaps already used to, and accepting of, what it sounds like. Then, the simplest way out is to focus attention on the fundamental action, and do so for long enough to ensure that, in the student's experience -- for a short time at least -- the tongue is no longer involved in 'starting' notes.
So as I say, it MAY BE better to do that at the beginning, and not risk getting into the mess in the first place -- as Carl suggested.
It's worth remarking that getting a student to blow properly is sometimes quite hard.
On the other hand, it's sometimes quite trivial and immediate; and of course in those cases, AND if the student is immediately aware of the effect of their actions on their sound -- something that's not always true -- you can progress more swiftly.
Tony
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Author: Jkaye
Date: 2009-05-18 17:57
I've been told that your jaw should always be open enough to fit a pencil in between your molars. If your jaw is too closed, this may cause a chewing motion in order to tongue?
Also, make sure your lower lip is not rolled in too far so that your trying to tongue over a high bottom lip.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-19 10:55
A humble story from a humble player:
When I had been playing for a few years as a boy, and still articulated with a disgusting quacking sound, and my teacher (something of a "natural player") couldn't make head or tail of what was wrong, I was thinking of chucking everything when I decided to look at my embouchure in the mirror and compare it directly to a record sleeve pictrue of Brymer playing in the recording sessions of the Mozart Quintet (c.1969). I noticed that I folded far more of my lower lip over than Brymer seemed to do. So I remodelled my embouchure by looking in the mirror and at Brymer until they were the same and I naturally adopted that model. At first I squeaked, but then it settled, and low and behold my tonguing problems had vanished. The problem had been the embouchure all along, and not the tongue. Therefore the simple sound production aspects of playing come first.
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