 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-07 13:24
Although my intonation is correct according to electronic tuner, I seem to be too flat in the orchestra I play with -- but only in the chalumeau register. I've tried modifying my embouchure and using harder reeds, but cannot manage to play sharper. Is this something a technician could cure, or should I be thinking of a different barrel, and if so what? I play a Buffet RC, and the problem seems to be only with the Bflat. The A seems to play a wee bit sharper.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-07 13:37
Do you mean the throat Bb? (ie the mid-staff Bb)?
Your ISP suggests you're in France, and AFAIK one plays at A=442 there. What pitch did you set your tuner to?
What barrel length are you using? A shorter barrel will affect throat notes most, bell notes least. Try if you can borrow a 1mm shorter barrel somewhere and see what gives.
--
Ben
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-07 14:26
Beejay means the B flat instrument. A French RC should play in tune in France. I suspect a tonal mismatch which sounds like a tuning problem. Start by trying a different brand of reeds to see if anything gives.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-07 14:32
I suspect that when you are tuning to the oboist's A, you are pulling your barrel to bring the pitch in tune, which is also lowering your throat tones. Try pulling your middle joint instead to tune the B4 and see if this leaves your throat register where you want it.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-07 15:01
Also, psycho-acoustically speaking, the chalumeau register of the clarinet, by the nature of its harmonic makeup, sounds flat even when it is on pitch -- just as the altissimo sounds sharp even when it isn't.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-07 18:15
Many thanks for all the helpful advice. The throat tones are OK. The problem seems to be with the notes E and down in the chalumeau register. I am tuning to 442. I just tested the tuner, and it tells me that my intonation is fine. And when I play duets with my teacher, we seem to be absolutely in tune. Nevertheless, my conductor accuses me of playing flat, and I'm wondering if David Spiegelthal's psycho-accoustical explanation may be the cause. So whether I am technically in tune or not, I need to play a little higher and since I cannot manage to tighten my embouchure without pinching the sound, I wonder if I should get a new barrel -- shorter, presumably. I'm playing a Buffet Crampon RC with the original barrel, Vandoren M30 mouthpiece and Rue Lepic 56 No. 3 reeds.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-05-07 19:05
There are two "other" things to look at. The mouthpiece: if you are using a "13 series" (ostensibly designed for American pitch....but it makes the pitch LOWER.......more so in the throat notes) try a NON 13 series.
Another Barrel suggestion besides just shorter, is to try a Chadash Barrel. The double inverted conical bore tends to make the throat notes really high (or rather, forces you to voice them differently).
........just some thoughts,
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-07 21:32
But the psycho acoustic effect would apply to all the clarinets. So I suggest your tone may be too broad to suit the French sound and this is being perceived as flat intonation. Its a guess but worth considering. Try a Marca reed to get a bit of grit in the tone.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-05-07 21:42
David- could you elaborate on this psycho acoustic effect? I've never heard about this before...
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-05-07 21:44
maybe the orchestra is playing somewhat high and you manage to keep the throat-tones and up in tune by your lips(without thinking about it, the body corrects the intonation when hearing its wrong), but not the chalumeau, which atleast for me, is very much harder to press up in pitch.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-07 23:38
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Get a shorter barrel.
In a pinch, it suffices to push in the barrel a bit, even if there is nothing left to push in. But the mere gesture of doing so may have the desired effect on the director, unless your pitch is really waaaaay Out Of Rosenheim.
But it's not bad to have some wiggle room up and down, thus I always have a 2nd shorter barrel in my case, even if I have used it maybe once, or even less.
That must be the psycho effect David has been writing about.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-05-07 23:55
Have you tried during a rehearsal break to quietly compare your chalumeau tuning to one of the others in your section that the conductor doesn't complain about? You haven't said, I don't think, whether or not *you* hear yourself as being flat on those notes.
I don't know the ensemble environment you're playing in. I don't think you even said if it's a band or an orchestra. If it's a band you might be able to just fade into the section more until the conductor's sensors are down a little. If it's an orchestra, is it possible that he's hearing you in comparison to someone else in the woodwind section or even against strings who are playing sharper than the tuning note (wouldn't that be novel!)? This conductor wouldn't be the first in the history of music to mistake something else in the sound for incorrect pitch or incorrectly attribute a pitch problem to the wrong player. What do *you* hear when you play in the group?
Karl
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2009-05-08 00:52
During a lesson with Burt Hara of the Minnesota Orchestra, we were discussing tone color and tuning issues. He told me that some conductors think the clarinetist is flat, when in all reality he is in tune with the rest of the orchestra. The thing that is flat is the timbre or tone color. I'm not saying you have bad tone or anything because I don't know, I just wanted to share a little tid bit of knowledge.
Maybe try "brightening" your tone in that register. I'm sure others have some good advice on how to do this whether it be with personal adjustment or an equipment switch.
Good luck!
Neal Raskin
www.youtube.com/nmraskin
www.musicedforall.com
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-08 11:58
KDK - It's a small chamber orchestra -- mostly strings, three clarinets, a couple of flutes, oboe and timpani. No brass. I usually don't have problems with intonation. But we are doing Mozart's Requiem and I have the opening solo notes (ie the bassoon part) of the Introitus -- E, D sharp, E, F sharp G, played pianissimo -- and that's where I keep coming a cropper. The funny thing is that if I play these notes into a tuner, they are fine. It is only in the orchestral context that the problem arises. So perhaps I do need to learn how to get a brighter tone. Is that a reed or an embouchure question? Yeah, I know -- I should play it on a basset horn, but the conductor wants clarinets!
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-05-08 21:30
Beejay:
The simple short answer: get a shorter barrel.
The long answer: Electronic tuners are more often the cause of poor intonation rather than its solution. I may be telling you something you already know, but most electronic tuners put the needle in the middle if your intonation is correct in a tempered scale. Unfortunately, in a chord, if all players put the needle in the middle for each note of the chord, it will sound out of tune. It is because what sounds in tune in a chord comes from the ratio of the frequencies of the different notes within the chord, which does not map perfectly with the tempered scale.
Tuning to frequency ratios is called just intonation.
Your opening note in the requiem may need to be sharper than the tuner (and you) think in order to sound in tune within the harmonic structure of the piece. some changes are minute, others can require variation of pitch of over 10 cents.
Of course this is just one hypothesis for why your conductor is unhappy. Maybe he has perfect pitch and it is referenced at 446hz... Who knows.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-05-08 22:11
You realize, I guess, that the second violin part, although it's in an eighth-note-eighth-rest rhythm and behind you by an eighth-note, is in unison with your notes. It's probably hard for you to hear them, but listening for them may be a key for you. Strings players often tune a little higher than the tuning note that's given before you start. Your first 'D' (concert pitch - your written 'E') is anticipated by Cello/Bass on beat one and then by violin 2 on the 2nd eighth-note, an eighth-note before you enter. It isn't much to react to, but they set the pitch for you before you start to play. If you find that they're higher than you can get in that first measure, you may need to use a shorter barrel just to get through the opening. How has your tuning been with the two clarinets (in the places of the bassetti) when they enter?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-05-08 22:11
Take your tuner to a rehearsal and check the reading while the oboist is giving their concert A to see exactly what they're playing.
But since there are no oboes in Mozart's Requiem, who's giving the tuning note for this piece?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-05-08 22:14
Also, you mentioned in your original post that your A clarinet plays a little higher. Is it high enough to solve the problem at the beginnng of the Introitus? You're already playing on a completely wrong instrument - whether you play a bassoon part on a B-flat clarinet or an A shouldn't matter to anyone. The notes are not a problem written a half-step higher.
Karl
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-05-08 23:08
Get a shorter barrel or a shorter mouthpiece (yes they make them.) I usually keep at least two barrels with my clarinet. also, be aware that many string players play sharp, intentionally or not.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-05-09 00:50
I had a similar issue with my early 1970's R13s (since sold). The simple fix was to switch barrels between the A and Bb. The standard A barrel was shorter than the Bb. I don't know about the RC series. Losing a 13-series mouthpiece, if used, would also help.
Regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2009-05-09 18:39
This may be another M30 problem:very looooong facing, very flat facing curve, big aperture, and designed for A=440Hz not for 442Hz.
That was once discussed on this BBS.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=207084&t=206945
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-05-11 14:41
Dear Hiroshi,
There may be a slight tendency for a long lay mouthpiece to allow for the embouchure to produce a lower pitch but I would strongly advocate looking at the "Series 13" vs. the "Non-Series 13" in this situation. I have a short lay mouthpiece that has a large tone chamber that plays quite flat thank you. The culprit has more to do with the internal volume of the mouthpiece than the lay (mainly TONE CHAMBER as opposed to the bore).
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-11 15:11
Unless I've totally misread beejay's posts, his tuning problem is in the chalumeau register, not the throat tones. If so, then barrel adjustments are absolutely the wrong approach -- they will affect the throat tones significantly but have very little effect at the other end of the instrument.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-11 17:55
So, not only are basset horns being replaced by clarinets but so are the bassoons! No wonder the whole thing sounds strange. I think the example is too eccentric to draw general conclusions
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-05-11 19:47
Beejay said chalumeau in his original post, I think, but the specific entrance he describes at the beginning of the Requiem, if I'm reading the score correctly, is on e4 (top of the chalumeau next to the throat) and the rest of the passage is in the same area, so a barrel adjustment (replacement with a shorter one - at least for the Introitus, if that entrance is the only problem) should be effective.
"I usually don't have problems with intonation. But we are doing Mozart's Requiem and I have the opening solo notes (ie the bassoon part) of the Introitus -- E, D sharp, E, F sharp G, played pianissimo -- and that's where I keep coming a cropper."
Karl
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-05-11 20:22
A shorter barrel will cure the specific notes mentioned, but this solution is not attractive if it also sharpens the tuning in the clarion register. Because beats are sensitive to differences in frequency, a given fractional error in tuning will be more apparent in the upper register. Therefore, I'd say you have to pick the barrel that makes (say) ABC at the top of the clarion register in tune and then be prepared to lip the notes in the chalumeau. But possibly the upper notes are also a little flat; do you have experience of those in orchestral context? Certainly it's worth experimenting with shorter barrels until you have the shortest where the upper register is not in danger of becoming sharp.
Even once you have this optimum barrel, it is a fact that the tuning of the top of the chalumeau can be wonky. E is normally good, but the Buffet Fsharp often seems to be on the flat side, and the only cure is to open a lower key: Csharp or side Eflat. The G can be flat if the venting of the hole under the A key is too little. This can be improved by shaving down the cork on the connection to the thumb hole. These problems of flatness can also seem worse in comparison to A & Aflat - but I always find these notes sharp on a Buffet and that the holes need filling in a little. In the UK, a material called blu-tac (used for holding posters to walls) is ideal for this. A shorter barrel will increase the need for this adjustment.
Finally, the problem I usually have to watch out for with the chalumeau is that the notes want to be sharp when you play pp. So flatness in this register should always be cure-able by playing out less.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-05-11 21:24
So, not only are basset horns being replaced by clarinets but so are the bassoons! No wonder the whole thing sounds strange. I think the example is too eccentric to draw general conclusions
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Author: beejay
Date: 2009-05-11 23:21
Yes, we are an eccentric band. We rearrange a lot to suit our limited range of instruments. As a basset horn player, I would much prefer to use that instrument, but the conductor thought that only one horn would be unbalanced, and that three clarinets would fit better with the rest of the orchestra, which consists of strings and timpani. So I'm not going to argue with the conductor. The overall sound fits very well with a large choir, with which we are also performing Vivaldi's Gloria. We did the requiem three or four years ago, and borrowed missing instrumentalists from other orchestras, but this time we are doing it in a small church and I think the aim is to keep an intimate effect. Hence the importance of getting those opening notes exactly right.
I am truly grateful for all your suggestions about curing flatness in the chalumeau register. I discovered that the barrel on my Buffet Crampon RC measures 65mm and that this is already the shortest regularly available. I was unable to find a Chadash barrel to try out, but that is something I will look into. I tried switching barrels with my A clarinet, but it made no difference. Hiroshi's suggestion that a long-lay mouthpiece like the M30 tends to play flat had some merit. I was able to play a bit higher by switching from a 3 to a 3.5 reed, but wasn't happy with the sound in the clarion register. So I went back to a more open old Charles Bay mouthpiece which seems to give a better intonation in the lowest notes. But the E at the top of the chalumeau remained flat in relation to the rest, despite the fact I have cleaned the chimney. Then came John Peacock's suggestion to open a lower key. Indeed E in combination with the side key makes the tuning absolutely perfect.
I'm going to book a service when our concerts are over, but for the time being the problem is solved for which I sent my thanks to you all.
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-05-12 07:34
I'm so glad you were able to solve the problem.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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