 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-01 17:45
I have observed that clarinetists, in general, believe that any piece of equipment they have purchased improves their sound; and the more expensive the item, the greater the improvement.
Go ahead, convince yourself I'm wrong.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-01 17:54
Hmm, I've never heard of clarinetists who spend money in order to deteriorate their sound...
But to believe that performance follows price is indeed a bit self-delusional.
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-01 18:03
Well, if it doesn't improve the sound or provide some kind of clear benefit I'm not going to buy it. And the more expensive it is, the more I expect it to do for me before I buy it. I don't think I'm delusional.
But on the other hand, I rarely buy new equipment . . . 
Post Edited (2009-05-01 18:06)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-05-01 18:26
Well I must admit that when I choose a piece of equipment I do the following: in order for each piece of equipment.
Barrel: does it give me a more or less resistance,am I looking to chance the resistance feeling?,does it tune well and does it solve any problem I might have and at last do I like the sound I get.
Mouthpiece: Is it easy to find reeds on it,is it even sounding and do I have to change a lot in my embouchure and airflow to get a good result,does it tune with the clarinet and finally do I like the sound.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2009-05-01 18:42
I wonder if string players, with their $10,000+ bows and unspeakably expensive instruments, don't suffer greater delusion than clarinetists. We're dealing with chump change.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-05-01 19:04
David,
It takes a good amount of discernment and experience to cut through the marketing hype.
Last month, I received an email from a flute shop raving about an extension that supposedly adds resonance and projection to one's sound. After some checking around and especially after carefully listening to several youtube demonstrations I concluded that I wasn't interested. I have pretty good ears for tonal quality/color and I could not discern any differences in the flautist's sound with or without the extension.
Personally, I use what works for me and is a match for my tonal conception. I'm not easily swayed by what others use.
Case in point (two words): Couesnon Monopole.
Roger
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-05-01 19:26
What amazes me more than knee-jerk equipment purchases is that people make determinations about "improvements" on the basis of what THEY hear when THEY'RE playing, not what their audiences might hear.
I can't count the number of times when I've been convinced that something new has improved my sound significantly, whereas when I play for other players (all expert players and with excellent ears) they frequently either hear no improvement or they actually hear degradation.
Conversely, something that I may not hear while playing may be perceived as a significant improvement by a set of good ears listening while I play.
Then there's the affect of WHERE one plays. Things heard in a concert hall may not be heard in recital salon or a room in your house, and vs. vrs.
I learned my lesson long ago. When it comes to sound, I NEVER decide about a piece of piece of equipment according to what I hear when I'm playing it. I always go with the judgment of an audience "out there."
B.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2009-05-01 19:28
It's true. It's sad. All the aftermarket barrels, bells, etc. BUT what I love about clarinetists is their love of the clarinet sound, their dedication to the finest and most lyrical sound ... and other esoteric stuff.
But, yeah, we're a bunch of GD suckers. And I could run for president of the suckers.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-05-01 20:40
Yer rite as rein, D S, S-D is all too common in our search for ultimates, and has some relation [perhaps] to G A S , IMVVHO. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-05-01 21:29
David:-,
Although this does amount to advertising for their product, this article rings very true on this subject.
The More it Costs the Better it Plays. Really?:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/pricing.html
Take Care
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-05-01 21:39
I'm with Roger here.
I stopped using my Leblanc Opus in favour of my Couesnon Monopole. It was a tenth of the price
Chris
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-05-01 21:48
Not as much as the flute players that I've known. Geesh! They'll spend thousands on a headjoint, sell it for half what they paid for it, then go buy another more expensive just because it has a different riser or cut.
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-05-01 21:49
I think there is a factor here most are missing. Why do we play the clarinet? Is it just to please other people? I think not. We love to play because we love the sound and the pleasure it gives us on progressing on a tricky instrument.. If an new bell on the end that you think makes it sound better, a special silver barrel, or finally you have been able to buy that very expensive clarinet and all this pleases you, then why not?
Post Edited (2009-05-01 21:51)
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-05-01 21:55
Another point that is often lost is that I have bought equipment that may not make me sound any better to the audience, but it FEELS better to me - the right amount of resistance, easier to articulate, etc. That makes a huge difference in how much one enjoys playing, and is a real reason to consider a piece of equipment other than sound. That's one of the reasons I like my current set-up - it just feels perfect! ( I hope it sounds good, too)!
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-05-01 22:34
well. its basicly the same with all humans, not only clarinetists. and i guess the bodybuilders are amongst the worst...
we dont get erectionproblems and a bad temper of trying a "super-duper-mega-sound-marching-barrel"....
anyhow. the one who is supposed to be pleased with the sound is oneself. and if some equipment can improve that its great. the important is to separate those who has a ideal-sound and are trying to find it, and the ones who is just looking for quick-fixes to solve their problems.
i mean... musicians in general are using the ears as our main sence, and most musicians are specialized in one field. clarinetists are probably most picky about clarinet-sound. and then i think i would be the most picky with my own sound which i had been studied for hours and hours every day in years!
when getting to a certain level, the differences are so very small its really hard to hear them when not really familiar with the original sound, as you get after hours and years.
aah. what im trying to say is that the one best suited to hear if the sound of a new piece of eqipment is good is mostly oneself.
not saying that another sets of ears when auditioning them aint good!! one can get too used to how one sounds, that the flaws isnt detected and eliminated as they should be. and then flaws from, say an old mouthpiece can be "transfered" to another. that means i seek for the same flaws in a new mpcs that i have in the old one since its familiar and a part of "ones sound"...
well. sorry if my mind slipped away there.. this wasnt really what i was planning on writing. but i think it makes sence, doesnt it?
im just home from a 13 hours rehersal. so dont judge me to hard, ok? :D
good night everybody. //niclas
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-05-01 22:36
But then it is not always about the sound. I was driven to buy these for their beauty. The fact that they sound good too is a mere bonus.
I am happy to accept that I am deluding myself regarding their beauty.....
Chris
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-05-01 22:52
Chris J.,
Those are beautiful! I would purchase that set of clarinets just for the appearance!
Chris Hill
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Author: Avie
Date: 2009-05-01 23:03
They are beautiful clarinets Chris. It reminds me of the silver ones we played in grade school band, but of course, not in that kind of condition.
Right on Pelo!!
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2009-05-01 23:15
Wow, those are in great shape. Don't forget, Gaston Hamelin played on such instruments, and he was (even in the old recording I have of him using early 20th century technology) a fine musician.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: HBO
Date: 2009-05-02 00:32
I think it has to do with more than attempting to sound more beautiful...
I REALLY think it has more to do with the mixture of innate curiosity and
the strange obssession towards collecting clarinet stuff (which you
would acquire once you put in your first mouthpiece in your mouth ;D).
I mean, it increases the fun that comes from playing the clarinet.
If it had to do with the price, then the Ridenour Lyrique clarinets
would've been put out of business a looooooong time ago, but look
just look at how many people buy the horns and are astonished by their
beautiful sound.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-02 00:48
I think price is a general scale that customers respond to in all markets, not only musical instruments- clothing, electronics, cars, etc.
It takes a very discerning customer to be able to really know what's what.
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2009-05-02 00:59
O my goodness. Look at them sweet looking things. First time I've seen a matched Bb and A metal clarinets though.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-05-02 01:40
I think we have to remember that when we're talking about a clarinet or mouthpiece or barrel or bell or ligature (or what have you) that sounds good or looks good or feels good, we're saying not a thing about the object of our obsession. We are talking about ourselves. Always.
Even a statement such as "The sky is blue" is personal ... the "blueness" isn't in the sky, it's in the person making the statement. Should we agrue if you say the sky is grey and someone else calls it turquoise? Blue or grey or turqouise is but a symbolic utterance related to the feeling we get when light impinges on our retina in a certain way. There is no true description of what the sky actually "is." We are all correct.
It's the same with all things clarinet that fall outside of scientifically verifiable data (my mouthpiece measures X mm from tip to bottom). We are always -- ALWAYS -- talking about ourselves. Thus if someone purchases something that they think improves their sound, they cannot be called "wrong" or "self delusional" for there is no ojbective evaluation possible of the validity of their assessment.
With all due respect, Mr. Spiegelthal, I submit that you are wrong.
Post Edited (2009-05-02 02:25)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-05-02 03:09
Paul, you're trying to accomplish something or other (I'm not sure what) by taking David's statements out of context and away from agreed-upon dialectical conventions of this bulletin board.
This business of "what I think is the truth because what I think is the truth" doesn't work in this context, especially when at least 3/4 of the people engaged in this threat are likely thinking "how I sound to my audience," not "how I sound to myself." For that 3/4s of David's audience, David's statements are not irrelevant.
Philosophical niceties aside, anytime people converse, we all pretty much agree on the meaning of certain words and phrases, depending on the context, especially if they have common experiences--such as playing the clarinet. If we didn't, we wouldn't get anywhere. So, in the context of this bulletin board and its dialectical and semantic conventions, your argument doesn't hold any water.
(With apologies to those who deny the existence of anyone but themselves.)
(Hey, if David thinks he's right, how can you, Paul, in your last sentence, say that he's wrong?)
(I sound better than Robert Marcellus in his best days. Anyone care to dispute that?)
B.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-02 04:00
DS,
I have done the opposite. My two Mark VI saxes (one a 54xxx alto) are now the backups to a Yamaha YTS 475 and a Super 80 Series I alto. I'm back to the old L200 clarinet and my flute is an OK Buffet Symphony Model with all the whistles and bells. The Reynolds Emporer BC is going strong.
I take great pride in the fact that all of my MPs are pretty much mongrels (except for the no name BC one that you refaced for me). A B45 with a tiny chip in the tip , my 35 year old Portnoy, some assorted Selmer Soloists, and a few Rico Royals thrown in. I am very fussy about my reeds though and play Rico #3 Orange (I still have a lot of the wood grain boxes) on the BC.
I will even take paella at that great Spanish restaurant in DC rather than the Black Angus. I try to be the Warren Buffet of GAS (get the best value).
A whole lot of times, less is more.
HRL
PS I have some Advent speakers that will just not die!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-02 04:51
David, you may be right about some players but not all. I would easily pay $500 for a bell or $250 for a barrel if I truly felt it made a difference to me. I think some mouthpieces today are way over priced but I guess if I really thought paying $600 for one that truly made me sound better I wouldn't hesitate. The one I use costs less then $200 today though. I paid a whooping $3000 for my new Selmer Signature clarinet three years ago because I loved the sound so why wouldn't I pay another few hundred if I thought it would enhance it even more. Yes it is true, all of my bells, barrels, mouthpieces and ligatures I own don't even come close to the price of one decent bow. As a matter of fact, the value of my two Bb clarinets, one A, on Eb and one Bass combined doesn't even come close to the price of a decent string instrument. I'm willing to bet that everything I've ever spent on clarinet equipment, including reeds, does not amount to as much as some of my fellow string players have paid for their instruments. I've never had to take out a long term loan to pay for mine as many of them have had to. We play one of the least expensive instruments on the market today so be grateful that we can improve them with a new bell or barrel. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-02 05:16
For flutists generally the more expensive the metal is the better the sound...... what an amazing coincidence! 
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2009-05-02 11:45
Dear BMCGAR,
I don't believe it's right to call someone "self delusional" because he or she believes that this or that piece of equipment makes them sound better. The value judgement "I sound better," is not a scientifically verifable statement. It's an opinion. That's my point.
Post Edited (2009-05-02 11:50)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-02 15:15
Interesting replies, all! Although part of the rationale for starting this thread was simply to rattle a few cages, my main point is that very often we delude ourselves into believing (a) marketing hype for a new product, especially when it's pricey (and yes I know it's all relative, our clarinets are relatively less expensive than many other instruments); or (b) having made a (relatively) expensive purchase of the latest product, we delude ourselves into believing we sound better, in order to justify the purchase and not get "buyer's remorse".
We all like shiny new things. A shiny new car just feels better than our used ones --- but after a few months, once the new car smell has worn off and we've gotten used to the car, it's just another car. It's the same with musical instrument gear -- it feels better initially because it's new and different and shiny, but honestly, after you've played it (whatever "it" is) for a few months, does it really make a difference that anyone can hear?
I'm sure Ed P. is correct that in some cases these things do make a tangible improvement, but I submit that in the majority of cases, they don't matter in the long term -- you might be better off saving your money for something else (like maybe a lesson with Ed, which I'd sign up for if I had any brains!).
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Author: whole note
Date: 2009-05-02 20:47
As long as you balance your purchases with lots of practicing, I think it's okay. You are only delusional if you think you can buy your way to good playing.
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Author: MichaelR
Date: 2009-05-02 21:55
And how does this make them any different than any other type of human being?
--
Michael of Portland, OR
Be Appropriate and Follow Your Curiosity
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-03 02:24
DS- " It's the same with musical instrument gear -- it feels better initially because it's new and different and shiny, but honestly, after you've played it (whatever "it" is) for a few months, does it really make a difference that anyone can hear? "
-----
I used to think this way. "The player makes the sound, not the instrument", and then I took a look at professionals; any and/or all professionals. Where is a pro that plays a Bundy? If there really is no significant difference, as you seem to be proposing David, then why is it we don't find pros playing the same equipment as kids?? After all, a Bundy can be adjusted so that the pads seal and keys move just as well as any other clarinet (maybe it can seal better because it is plastic- no micro-leaks), and I am sure that some medium level pros would not minds having the extra cash from selling there instruments and buying cheaper, but they don't.
Sure, the old phrase "[insert name of famous] would still sound really good on anything" is true, but when they go on stage, they are not playing "anything". They are playing an expensive instrument that they selected and had adjusted by a master technician to play as good as possible.
So, I turn the question back and ask David, "Why do pros play expensive instruments?"
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2009-05-03 02:43
You must also concede that many many professionals play standard R13's when there are many more expensive options. The tosca, for instance, nearly twice as much as a nickel plated R13.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-03 04:16
"You must also concede that many many professionals play standard R13's when there are many more expensive options. The tosca, for instance, nearly twice as much as a nickel plated R13."
True, but there are cheaper instruments also. If it was all in the player, why don't they all play Yamaha 250s or Buffet B12s or old plastic Conns, etc.???
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2009-05-03 04:33
I don't think that the premise of this thread is that its all in the player. More like, we clarinetists tend to greatly exaggerate the importance of very expensive equipment. The equipment matters, to a certain point, beyond that its all psychological.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-05-03 08:00
I don't think that this condition is at all exclusive to clarinetists. Last week I played in an opera performance with a very famous soprano. Because she is so high-profile the tickets were more expensive than they normally are. I found the soprano's performance mediocre, but the audience went completely wild.
Well, it must have been good because the tickets were so expensive, right?!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-03 13:06
>We all like shiny new things.>
Or shiny old things. Some of us (ahem...) have the opposite delusion: That if we find something smelly and tarnished, in a ratty old case, it's got to be an undiscovered gem. Apropos of which, Chris J., that's a beautiful case set-up to protect your beautiful clarinets. Looks as if you custom-fitted that case yourself. Well done!
(Came home from the Falls Church Community Yard Sale yesterday with a Samsonite attaché case for $1.... Just the right size for a pair of clarinets!)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2009-05-03 13:07)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-05-03 20:19
A note re Chris J's metal clarinets - it appears that whilst both are full boehm system the A clarinet has the low Eb but the B doesn't, quite the opposite of what I would have expected. Has anyone else seen a pair where this exists?
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-05-03 21:31
I think we all just have a passion for the instrument. How it feels, sounds, looks, and yes, even smells. Along with the instrument comes all the accessories with which to experiment. Barrels, bells, ligatures, reeds, mouthpieces, cork, wood, plastic, silver/nickel, red, yellow, black, white. If an item has been created for the clarinet, then we, as clarinetists are driven to explore these things, in all their infinite combinations, and that, in itself, is a joy.
As a child, my frugal mother insisted that the store brand was just as good as the name brand clothing and made purchases accordingly. Back in junior high, Izod shirts were "in." I had a few polo-type shirts which fit and lasted just as well, but when my aunt gave me a "real" Izod shirt (purple with stripes), I couldn't wear it enough. I was excited to go to school on the days that shirt came out of the laundry. I was more confident, I held my head higher, and perhaps, I even achieved more because I felt that I could.
Could it be the same with "name brand" clarinets and associated products? Do we just feel better when we get these things, and therefore perhaps play more confidently, or with more enthusiasm?
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-05-03 21:38
Lelia
I can't take any credit for the case. It is a Selmer case. The barrels are obviously loose in the case but otherwise the rest of the pieces are quite snug. They were in this case when I bought them.
Norman - yes it is odd. The A is full Boehm, the Bb isn't. The only other Selmer metal A I have seen referred to is in this link here. It is also FB.
I have not seen any reference to a FB Bb though I have no doubt they must have been made.
I have never seen a reference to a Bb/A pair, other than mine.
Chris
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2009-05-04 02:21
If more expenive doesn't equal better, then why don't all the pros just play on student instruments?
Leonard
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-05-04 03:00
David asks
"Will a $200 Mouthpiece be better than a $25 one?
Most of the time."
I would play the Fobes Debut over a number of much more expensive mouthpieces!
To answer the questions, why pros do not play student line instruments- it is because they are not made to the same high standards, in terms if design, fit and finish, playability, intonation, response.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2009-05-04 15:23
How many clarinetists here have more than 7 mouthpieces in a box somewhere?
How many have more than 5 barrels in a box?
How many more than 3 ligatures in a box?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-05-04 17:58
I own 4 barrells and 4 mpcs. for use. However, with climate change in this part of the world is like from winter to summer I do find it helpful not to have alot of equipment and settle on the issues of reeds over equipment.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-05-04 18:52
For teaching it's great to have a huge variety for the student to try. Not to buy, to try as if the teacher is selling stuff it begins to be seen as him pushing a business. If the teacher leads the student to a product and they get it themselves typically parents are much more open to it.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: hammer_sickle01
Date: 2009-05-07 05:36
i like variety when it comes to my playing. Especially when I have to perform somewhere. If I'm not happy with my sound right then and there (and i have little time to change it) sometimes changing a plate and putting in a different barrel makes all the difference.
Of course...though I deny that I am delusional when it comes to spending ON my actual clarinet, I can't say that I'm not self-delusional when it comes to my cases. I've convinced myself that decent reed-cases are necessary, but lately the excuse of saying, 'well, i needed to spend $$$ on the clarinet case because the equipment it carries is expensive' seems to be more of me trying to justify my excessive spending on clarinet cases than genuine concern over the actual instrument.
oh, how I do love my wiseman case and its soft, dark-blue velvet interior...
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2009-05-08 21:23
Most people have at least some need to justify to themselves and others why they want to buy, or have bought, a new toy. It is not exclusive to clarinet players. We even have seen books published to support people's desire to excessively consume "Dress for Success". Some how we just feel better about saying the 50 dollar ligature gives me a better sound than the shoestring, than it looked kind of cool so I bought it.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-05-10 04:25
It's not always the most expensive stuff that does the trick, but certain minimum standards have to be met. It my not be necessary to have a $600 or even a $200 mouthpiece, but most in the $25 range probably just aren't up to snuff in the first place. (Fobes, Hite, Pyne excepted--but then they're more than $25, too)
With saxes, I had a similar experience to Hank Lehrer. I traded in my 1957 Mark VI tenor sax on a Yamaha 52 and a Mark VII. (I actually prefer the 52, and use the Mark VII as a spare) I may have given up a little sound with the Mark VI, but the responsiveness of the other horns has been better for performance. I feel that they still meet minimums, and are perfectly playable by a good player with a good setup.
I also looked very hard at the E11 at one time to replace a not-so-great R13 that my college instructor had picked out for me. Fortunately, I came into some money and got a pair of R13 Greenlines, but I had tried a number of E11's that outperformed my old R13 in many respects.
However I couldn't go as far as looking at a B12. I think that the E11 meets minimums, and that one might survive without an R13 or a Tosca, but the B12 is light years different in tone and response.
It goes for musicians as well as for equipment. I dare say that most finalists for orchestra auditions can handle the principal job just fine. But there are so many applicants that orchestras are able to be more choosy. I think that some of these orchestras who can't bring themselves to finally commit to a winner are the ones who are actually delusional.
Allen Cole
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-05-10 12:52
Dave, after much reflection I agree with your opinion. "We believe what we want to believe" aka the "self fulfilling prophecy".
Bob Draznik
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2009-05-11 00:53
but didn't we want to believe that the previous piece of equipment was "the answer"?
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-05-12 00:43
Several years ago, my daughter (in high school) was using a Rovner dark ligature. Her teacher at the time, an old-timer who was set in his ways, convinced her to get something "better," and she did. Long story, but I ended up "inheriting" the Rovner from her. I got good results with it (using my Rico Reserves), but I wondered if I should really get something "better." After all, it isn't an expensive ligature.
A few months ago, I had an opportunity to attend a clarinet seminar at a local university. A vendor was there with all kinds of expensive and fancy ligatures. Guess what? I tried several of them, and none of them really played better than my Rovner dark. I guess it goes to show that when it comes to ligatures, more expensive doesn't always mean better.
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-05-12 01:25
Clarinetguy said: " I guess it goes to show that when it comes to ligatures, more expensive doesn't always mean better."
This applies to clarinets as well... ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2009-05-12 01:26)
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-05-12 12:38
And, of course, one setup may work for one clarinetist and not for the other, completely regardless of price.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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The Clarinet Pages
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