 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: awildman
Date: 2009-04-30 05:47
Attachment: Bent key.JPG (166k)
Attachment: Adjustment.JPG (185k)
I've had a Normandy 4 sitting in my closet for the better part of a decade now. One of the main reasons i never started playing was because this has a bent key. I'm infatuated with this clarinet and I want to get it playing. Now that I got laid off, I've got a lot of time on my hands and I'd like to start working on getting this thing ship-shape. Meanwhile, I'll actually be learning to play on my plastic Normandy. Yes, I know I should take this in to a good tech, but without income, I can't bring myself to spend that much money(probably over $300 to make it perfect).
Like I said, the bent key is the worst problem, but this key alone has two things wrong with it that I can see. Part A: It needs the fingering end straightened out pretty badly(somebody previously attempted to repair with a pit bull, i think) but I'm having a hard time finding a way to get hold of the thing to do anything with it. What is the best way fix that part? Clamp it in a vise(padded jaws, of course) and use a small hammer and toothless pliers to make it acquiesce to my will? Is heating the affected area with a torch a no-no?
Part B of the key problem is even worse. The key seems to be misaligned, with the pad end of the key needing to move away from the camera perhaps .060 or .070 of an inch. (or go further underneath the other long keys, if that helps clarify) When I work the key, it is clearly not hinging right. It is not moving up straight up and down over the post. The rod portion of the key is tweaked at an angle, causing the key to be misaligned. I can't tell that by looking at it, but that must be the problem. I'm sure somebody tried to do something with the rod, as one end of the rod has burrs, like somebody shaved a bit off the end and didn't bother dressing it up. But why they would do this I don't understand. The problem wasn't the length of the rod, it was the angle. Probably the same person who put pliers marks all over the end of the key, and still didn't succeed in fixing the key! GRR!!!!. It could be that the posts are tweaked a bit, but I really don't think so. How would I go about checking the post alignment, or would I be better off leaving the posts alone as they're solid and concentrating on fixing the key?
The last question I have for now is how to adjust the keys in the other pic. Sorry, I don't know the names of the keys yet. The key underneath, when depressed, has about ..010-015 inch before it makes contact with the key that goes over the top of it. What is the optimal gap, if any? And how can i change that gap, since the screw in the bridge of the key is bottomed out? Longer screw? Piece of cork? Thicker pad?
In case you can't tell, I'm mechanically inclined and quite the perfectionist. I'd like to get this right, and think I can do it on my own, with a bit of guidance. I'm going to order the Reg Thorp book, but would like to start before it gets here. If I find a job soon, this will probably go back in the closet for another decade or two, and i'd hate to see that happen.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Aaron
Post Edited (2009-04-30 05:49)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-30 06:50
For your second question/photo, basically there is needs to be the least amount of gap that is still a gap. Just to allow the top key pad to close (instead of touching the other key before it closes) and have a slight gap to allow if the under key pad slightly swells.
For the bent key, the obvious part in the photo is the touch-piece (what you actually press with your finger) is bent too high. It should be pretty much the same height as the key next to it, and lower than the two top similar keys just above them. This might (most likely even) be possible to do while the key is on the clarinet by using your fingers. Holding the key cup (part with pad) on it and press the touch-piece end. At the end the metal need to be in a reliable state which means you should bend it a bit "too much" and bend it back a little. How much exactly depends on the metal, key, etc. you get a feel for it with experience.
If you do take the key off to bend it, be careful not to bend the hinge tube (where the screw goes). Maybe even put the screw in the tube so protect it while bending. Also notice not to damage (bend) the flat spring that is connected to this key if you remove it.
The photo is too dark to see the tone hole (hole in the body under the pad). If I understand you correct, if holding the clarinet so the key touch-piece is towards you, and the pad of this key is away from you, the key cup (pad) of this key is too much to your right side, as opposed to be directly over the hole. If this is correct, then you need to bend the key back to the correct position. Probably with pliers (parallel jaw pliers with smooth jaws might be good here). However the key cup and pad might be be aligned over the hole still and to correct that might be a little more complicated.
The other problems you mentioned with this key are not completely clear. I mean what you wrote here: "It is not moving up straight up and down over the post. The rod portion of the key is tweaked at an angle"
If there are any problems with the hinge itself, you can start by removing the key, putting the screw in the key while off the instrument, and check that it the key turns smoothly over the screw. Also you can remove the spring, put the key back on the clarinet, and check that it moves smoothly. Go from there.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2009-04-30 07:20
Attachment: Bent key2.JPG (106k)
Let me clarify. From this picture, the pad end of the key needs to go to the right. Actually, the whole key needs to rotate clockwise around the center axis. The hinge tube is at an incorrect angle to the rest of the key. There doesn't appear to be any damage/bending in that area, it just is not aligned correctly. The hinge tube is obviously tweaked, but I don't think the damage is visible. The body of the key looks as if it needs to be perfectly parallel with the other keys in the cluster to be lined up correctly, and it's not. What I meant by this: "It is not moving up straight up and down over the post. The rod portion of the key is tweaked at an angle" is that this discrepancy becomes more obvious when the key is open. As the key is opened and closed, the gap becomes obvious. Not only does the key need to rotate clockwise, I think it needs to lean more toward the right in relation to the hinge tube. (basically, from this view, the key needs to rotate to the right; and from the previous view, the top of the key, directly above the hinge tube, needs to move closer to the key next to it.
Two concerns related to this: 1. I would have to pry quite hard to get this to bend while attached. Probably hard enough to damage the posts. I'm not sure how much pressure I can safely apply. 2. The other keys are in the way for me to do this while it is assembled.
Cheers,
Aaron
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-30 08:19
OK it's clearer now.
Maybe I remember wrong, but I think your first post said "towards the camera"! Did you edit it to say "away from the camera"? That would explain the reversed sides in my reply. I hope my answer about the problems with the touch-piece part of this key and the other higher keys were clear.
Basically the hinge can't be "twisted" unless the posts were re-positioned or something extreme like that which extremely unlikely. So what is bent can be either side (or both sides) of it. For the hinge, check as I suggested, the screw inside the tube, with the key off the instrument. Also the key without the spring is moving smoothly when it's assembled.
You don't need to be so concerned with the gap you described, or that the key is not completely aligned with the other keys. What you need is to correct the position of the touch-piece, so it is good and comfortable, plus not colliding with any other key. Also make sure the key cup (pad) is aligned over the tone hole so the pad can seal. If you fix these problems, the alignment will be back to what is best. By the way you might need to change the pad after you fix the key since it might not seal because of an old impression. Also the key cup need to be aligned over the tone hole as much as poissble.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2009-04-30 09:55
Upon further inspection, the hinge tube is indeed at an incorrect angle in relation to the rest of the key. I think the hinge tube needs to be at 90 degrees to allow the key to rotate into the correct position. The tube is not quite perpendicular, perhaps 2 degrees off. There is also what appears to be very, very fine graining in the key around this area like it was polished on a buffing wheel or something similar. None of the other keys have any marks like this.
Here's what I think happened: somebody dropped this piece of the clarinet. The key bent in the touch-piece area and cracked around the hinge-pin. They attempted to fix with pliers, leaving tooth marks, and discovered that the damage was worse than initially thought. This person had somebody attempt repair on the key. They first attempted to repair the hinge pin portion of they key. They soldered a piece of metal into the rest of the key, or at least filled the crack, then blended it in with a polishing wheel. They then drilled a hole for a new hinge-pin but at an incorrect angle. They cut and soldered in a new hinge-pin. They put the key back into the clarinet, to see how it fit. At this point, they discovered that the key wasn't lining up right. And for some reason, they just stopped working on it. If I recall correctly, this clarinet was owned by a girl in school somewhere in small-town Texas. It's entirely possible, and even probable, that somebody at her school attempted to fix this, and realized that it wasn't quite right. This is probably when the girl decided to give up clarinet. It then sat in the closet for a decade or so before I bought it.
Now I've got the instrument, and the key's still bent, and the hinge tube is still at the wrong angle and a little too short. Keeping in mind that I'm a perfectionist, now what? I've got to start with the hinge-tube. Un-solder it?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-30 12:04
The hinge tubing isn't perpendicular with the side of the key on the side Bb/Eb keys - this is quite normal. You'll notice the pad cup is also at an angle so it lines up with the tonehole.
All the side keys should be parallel with each other with equal gaps running between them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2009-04-30 17:58
After disassembling a portion of the keys, the problem has become even more obvious. It is the angle of the hinge tubing in relation to the rest of the key. In order to get this key parallel to the other keys, I need to correct the angle of hinge tubing.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-05-01 17:13
I would be careful about trying to correct the angle of the hinge tube, as this is probably the weakest part of the structure. As a do-it-yourself fix attempt, I would take all the other trill keys off to give room to work; then put the key to be fixed back on. I'd then try to bend the pad end into position to cover the hole and the lever end into a more correct position.
Best regard,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-02 03:58
>> After disassembling a portion of the keys, the problem has become
>> even more obvious. It is the angle of the hinge tubing in relation
>> to the rest of the key. In order to get this key parallel to the
>> other keys, I need to correct the angle of hinge tubing.
Do you mean the angle of the key in relation to the hinge tube, or that the angle of the hinge tube itself is not parallel to the hinge tubes or the other keys? Assuming the former.... do you mean it was soldered at the wrong angle? Seeing the photo, the key is obviously bent. Are you sure the key just hasn't bent on each side of the hinge tube? I agree with the poster above, bend the key cup side to align with the tone hole, and the touch-piece side for the correct position.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2009-05-02 06:33
"Do you mean the angle of the key in relation to the hinge tube"?
Yes
"or that the angle of the hinge tube itself is not parallel to the hinge tubes or the other keys?"
when the keys are parallel the tubing is not parallel. when the tubing is parallel, the keys are not parallel.
"Assuming the former.... do you mean it was soldered at the wrong angle?"
Yes.
"Are you sure the key just hasn't bent on each side of the hinge tube?"
I'm positive. The key is straight, except the very end around the touch-piece.
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