 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-24 16:12
Hi Everyone,
I had an interesting experience last night evening at a local high school. I will end with a Clarinet Shaped Object (CSO) and Sax SO repair question but I need to set the stage. OK, here goes.
My favorite local repair tech does an on-the-road circle trip to several schools and universities in NW Ohio and SE Michigan every Thursday. He does some on-the-spot adjustments and also picks up and delivers instruments that were at or are going back to his shop for more extensive work.
I needed a quick adjustment on my BC and Mark VI tenor which had been worked on in his shop the week before. Also at the school were two local sax pals of mine. DG had a 1015 King Silver alto that needed a few tweaks and XS, the band director, had a couple of school/student instruments that needed some quick repairs/adjustments.
The tech did my BC in about 5 minutes, did BG's King alto in about 8 minutes, did a school clarinet in 2 minutes, and my Mark VI (which now really rocks), and then the SSO.
During the last adjustment, we all chatted about SSO and CSO. There were some bent keys (quickly fixed) and the tech made a few comment on "Chinese instrument quality" but in a few minutes the instrument played fine. Total time = less than 30 minutes.
So here are my questions.
A lot of techs won't work on instrument that are Chinese but this tech did; the work was easy and he made money.
Q1. Is there so much repair work around that techs can turn business away?
Q2. Doesn't the refusal to do Chinese instruments come off as a bit elitist?
It's like the guy that repair my brick patio wall last summer. He said "boy, did the person that built this do a lousy job" and my comment was "but that business for you."
HRL
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-24 16:41
Q1: Totally depends on the country/city/area. I know some repairers actually manage to work only on professional instruments. This would definitely not work here for anyone trying to do repairs. Of course this is seperate from a situation where an insrument is just not worth the repairs necessary, and then a repairer (an honest one at least) would recommend to the customer not to invest in it. But this is not only for Chinese, for example just today I saw an American saxophone that is definitely not worth fixing.
Q2: I don't know if I would say elitist, but it's possible (unless it's the reason in Q1) that they are biased based on past experience with very bad Chinese instruments.
The fact is there are actually many very decent Chinese instruments now. Just in the last few years they made a huge improvement. They are (IMO) not yet at the level, mechanically speaking, of good known companies (especially the Japanese), but they can make very decent instruments.
As far as their tone, etc. then it's more an opinion now, since there are Chinese instruments that play just fine. Two local professional saxophone players choose to play a Chinese soprano sax, and they prefer it over others they have tried (which included for example Selmers). I didn't like those sopranos that much, but that's kind of the point.... it is a matter of preferance now, as opposed to very obvious problems in the past.
But not all Chinese instruments are good, and some are still pretty awful. I recently tried too many of them at Musikmesse and was impressed mostly by the saxophones. Some clarinets were reasonable but not yet at the level of the saxophones IMO. They even had a pretty decent bass saxophone!
Until I was in Musikmesse I only heard about these good Chinese instruments but I've never seen them. So I wouldn't be suprised if someone who hasn't seen them would think all of them are bad. The problem is still that the Chinese don't have brand names. AFAIK it is still the responsibility of the (mostly Western I assume) dealers to create a reconizable name that would mean quality, by consistently importing the GOOD ones.
Post Edited (2009-04-25 04:55)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-04-24 16:50
As ya know, Dr. Hank, there are repairs and there are repairs. A pad replacement is the same on any clarinet, CSO or otherwise. A slightly bent key, same deal. A seriously bent key, however, might be a 10-second repair on a quality clarinet but snap the key on a CSO if it has brittle cast keywork. Just an example. From what I've read, though, the Chinese instruments (of all species, not just clarinets) are improving in quality slowly but surely. They'll get there. You and I both remember when "made in Japan" was a very bad sign! As another example of quality catch-up, Korean automobiles have nearly reached Japanese levels of quality from the reports I've seen (but remember the first Hyundais sold in the US?).
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-24 18:33
DS,
Yes, we are dating ourselves (and I think we have talked about this over paella). Your points are well taken though. Particularly with respect to the Korean automobiles.
The techs worry though was keys that were too bendable; at least that's what he said but in general was pretty well down on the breed. And a softer body tube so that post alignment would be a problem.
Clarnibass. What brand of sax was that you were speaking about. I'm not sure there are very many American made instruments these days. But there are still a lot of people around Elkhart, IN that worked for Conn and the other makers in that town.
HRL
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-24 19:20
My recent experience of some Chinese CSOs/SSOs is that many are so badly manufactured that even a seemingly simple repair soon turns into a saga and the biggest problem is that no matter how well you get them to play at that instant you know the probability of that repair/adjustment holding up for more than a few weeks is quite slim.
I personaly will not work on most of them as I value my reputation more than the bucks.
I'm sure that in some years the situation will probably improve but at my age I cannot wait that long.
I will still happily repair good quality student instruments, lost count of the number of 30+ year old Yamaha flutes that I have successfully overhauled.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-04-24 19:28
I know a good local tech who will work on CSO's and SSO's, but he makes a point to explain to his clients (some of them unknowing) what's in store.
Case in point:
A few months ago, I took my clarinet to him for a relatively quick adjustment. While I was there, a family walked in with a boy of, say, 10 or 11, who is taking saxophone lessons.
His instrument was an SSO from China and it didn't play. The parents knew nothing about what might need to be done, or even how a saxophone works.
The tech was willing to attempt repairs, but he told them up front that it was an inexpensive horn. Without bad-mouthing their choice of instrument, he tried to explain about bendable keys, pads, leaks and the kind of knockabout use the horn might get in school.
They asked how much it would cost to repair, and he said they'd have to leave it so he could check it fully. He quoted them a low price for fixing one obviously bent key and a shifted pad, but he warned that unless he examined the entire horn they might be back the following week with another problem.
I suspect they were skeptical of his motives; ie, if they left it in the shop he'd "find" more problems and charge more money.
Part of his spiel was intended to educate them, but it didn't really go over well. They just wanted the problem fixed, and they didn't want to spend a lot.
I thought the tech handled it well. They finally decided to leave the horn; he promised to call them with estimates on various levels of repair.
I can see, though, why CSO's could be too much effort for a tech, busy schedule or not.
Post Edited (2009-04-24 19:32)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-24 21:52
Weberfan,
That's a good approach to explain. But I've heard tales (some on this BB) about techs not even being diplomatic about the issue.
Maybe make uninformed parents into customers rather than 'banish them for your shop."
HRL
PS So no-one will think I am a snob, two of my granddaughters play TR 147 clarinets (and I have two as spares).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-25 05:18
Hank, I'm not sure if you are asking what the good Chinese brands are or what the American sax I was talking about was.
If the former, then maybe it's important to explain that the Chinese don't really have their own names. When I tried all those decent Chinese instruments they were under Chinese names but you wouldn't find them under those names in your local stores, if at all. It is the responsibility of stores to to be concerned with quality and not just profit. Some stores just buy the cheapest, which is the worst instruments, and then sell for as much as possible.
If the latter, then maybe it wasn't clear that it's an old one. It's an old student Conn. It doesn't actually have a model name on it. It's simply in a condition that is not worth fixing completely, comparing with the quality of the sax. One of the better, new generation, Chinese saxophones IMO would be a much better option for a student over this old Conn.
By the way, I recently met a store owner who sells one of the best available Chinese saxophones. They found the best factory they could. Then he worked with his repairer about improving the basic design. He also worked with the Chinese factory owner and head technician, including actually coming to China and visiting the factory. It was a journey where in the end they made their own brand name, with instruments made for them in China and Taiwan. This, plus actually playing the good Chinese instruments, was very interesting since all I knew before were stores doing what I described above.....
Re soft keys, this might interesting. It is a comparison of a Yanagisawa, a Taiwanese Keiwerth, and a new generation Chinese sax. http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Tenor/Walstein_versus_Yanagisawa.htm
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-25 10:27
Clarnibass,
It was asking the brand (which you said was an old Conn) as there are not too many instruments actually made in this country any more. Elkhart, IN used to be the home of many fo these companies.
As a point in clarification, I was not really asking about the quality of the instruments, just about the willingness for techs to make repairs. In these tough economic times, it would seem a bit cavalier to turn perfectly good business away. Isn't the money green enough (a US nickname for money has been the "greenback"). Standing on principles is one thing, being foolish is another.
HRL
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-04-25 15:01
I didn't read through all the threads but I don't mind working on them if I can warranty the work I do. Some instruments are so poorly constructed that they will not stay in regulation very long. The lower end flutes are the worse offenders. Tracking down parts can be a problem as well since some of the importers change the origin of the instrument frequently to get the best price. Subtle design changes occur when this takes place. A few of the companies are good to work with on parts but others that just want to make a quick sale are a little different.
I'll admit there are a few brands that I personally have refused to work on. I just have to evaluate them on a case by case basis.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-25 15:08
Hank, I understand what you mean. I just think it is very important to explain there are decent Chinese instruments, and that some people don't realize this. I think this is a critical point of why some repairers don't agree to repair them. They simply assume they are all as bad the worst ones, and affraid of the many unpredictable problems you can find during repairs for those very bad ones (and there are many!).
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-25 17:06
Thanks, John and Clarnibass for great as well as thoughtful responses. Whether we like it or not, a great percentage of musical instrument manufacturing has moved out of the traditional locations (UK, France, US, Germany, Italy, etc.).
But I remember when I had my first YTS 61 many years ago. No one played them and I thought the sound was magnificent. I think we'll see more Asian instruments in the coming days. Hopefully, quality was only improve.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-25 17:57
The scrupulous repair person will explain to a customer when a repair would cost more than the retail value of an item or will turn the job down -- preferably both. When I owned my stained glass design-build-repair studio, I routinely turned down repair jobs on cheap lamps and decorative objects that would cost more to fix than they were worth.
There was a fad for made-yesterday "Tiffany" (don't even get me started...) lamps in the early 1980s through the 1990s. Importers went way too far in the price wars. Some of these "instant landfill" lamps, imported from South Korea and Mexico, were so flimsy that in one case, a brand-new lampshade fell apart on the back seat of the customer's car while she was carrying it home from the store. When she tried to return the lamp, the store manager refused and accused her of dropping it. I wrote a letter for her to take back to the store, with an explanation that the lamp was "skin-soldered" with such a meager amount of metal that the normal jiggling and bouncing of the car had obviously caused the mosaic to fall apart of its own weight, and that for me to solder it properly so that it wouldn't collapse again would take so many hours that I'd have to charge her more than double what she'd paid for the lamp. I told her if she had to go to small claims court, I'd be happy to back her up. She got her money back.
If a musical instrument repairer sees damaged keys cast of lightweight smelter, likely to break if looked at crosseyed, or other symptoms of extreme flimsiness, then the technician would be smart to turn down that job. Otherwise, the repair work might do further damage, for which the customer would hold the technician liable. Also, a super-flimsy will just break again. People who try to do a good job of repairing things want to be able to stand behind our work.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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