 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-04-24 13:27
im taking a little quiz. i have to label either, "Diatonic Semitone, Chromatic Semitone, Whole Tone, or Other. The 2 notes given are....
G#4 & Bb4
my answer was Whole Tone
the answer in the book says Other
I dont understand. I think I'm having a brain freeze.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-04-24 13:56
The intervalic distance between G# and Bb is a whole tone (as you answered). However, it could be classified as an enharmonic whole tone given the note is G# and not Ab. Since enharmonic whole tone is not one of the listed choices, the anwer would be Other. Personally, this strikes me as something of a trick question.
Roger
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-04-24 14:21
I think the reasoning they are looking for is that, if the letter names are G and B (forget the accidentals for a moment), the interval must be some kind of third therefore your answer from the options given would be "other". Its the same kind of thing as saying that G to C sharp is an augmented fourth but G to D flat is a diminished fifth (even though they sound the same).
Vanessa.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dlloyd
Date: 2009-04-24 15:25
It's a whole tone. The person who set the quiz is wrong.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-24 15:32
Has to do with enharmonic spelling as Roger suggested and this is really a trick question...similar to spelling 'theater" or "theatre".
In practicality, as a performer, this will have no bearing on your work in the real world.
If you end up doing any kind of publishing or arranging, it might be something to remember as a piece of trivia.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dlloyd
Date: 2009-04-24 15:46
The quiz specifies chromatic or diatonic semitones, but neglects to specify any particular type of whole tone.
As an enharmonic whole tone is a type of whole tone, surely the third answer should be correct? Or is a 'whole tone' only ever a major second?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-04-24 15:49
the book says - in this book "Whole Tone" refers to "Diatonic Whole Tone"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-04-24 15:49
Remember, this is theory and not ear training. Vanessa has the right logic. As in her example of an augmented fourth versus a diminished fifth, there is no difference in hearing the interval; however, this aspect of theory wants us to recognize the written difference between G-C# versus G-Db -- especially, in how it can relate to harmony. It might seem like splitting hairs. However, think about this.... G-C# would be the expected notation for an A7 chord and G-Db for an Eb7. The G#-Bb example could be found in a C augmented 7 chord -- C+7. In this case, G# is the augmented 5th. If Ab was notated it would be a minor 13th. This is just an example to show how harmonic versus enharmonic notation of a particular note can result in different implications from a harmonic standpoint.
Post Edited (2009-04-24 17:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2009-04-24 17:49
Spelled the way it is, that interval would be classified as a diminished third.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: soybean
Date: 2009-04-24 19:24
Another thing. Go back to the word "diatonic". That refers to music that is in a specific key and thus has a scale associated with it. If the key was 'E' for example, the G# is diatonic and the Bb is not. However, in much of today's music, the actual interval is much more important, so your answer of whole tone is intuitively correct.
Where this would be important is in notation. It's very disconcerting to have to read music where one measure contains both sharps and flats. The copyist should make every effort to have the music "look" like it sounds. (end of lecture);-)
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-04-25 02:17
Also to remember that in non-tempered scales, a Gb is a very different note than a F#. Prior to Bach, this distinction would have been very important and this question may relate to that issue.
Also remember, if Janlyn ends up teaching at a small college where she teaches both clarinet and theory, she now has one of her questions for the first final exam she administers.
We can expect this same issue to come up on the Clarinet BB in twenty years, when her students talk about the mean professor who gave a trick question in the final.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-25 06:17
Yes yes yes yes yes but....
A whole tone is a whole tone however you spell it. It may be a major second or a diminished third or a double-augmented unison or whatever but it's still a whole tone. Just as a semitone is a semitone whether it's C to C# or C to Db or B# to Cb.
How would the setter write a whole-tone scale?
Fb Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A# B# Cx Dx Ex - hm, doesn't take long before it starts looking a bit silly does it?
"the book says - in this book "Whole Tone" refers to "Diatonic Whole Tone""
Ah, then it's a trick question according only to the setter's somewhat arbitrary terminology. I think you can rest easy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-04-25 10:40
lol teach at a college level?
i'm teaching myself a bit of theory to prepare myself to take a few beginner students.
while i understand everyones explanations, it is hard for me to understand how the book would expect someome learning "elemtary theory" would be able to reason all that.
the purpose of that chapter was to learn Diatonic Semi-Tones (1 line 1 space 1/2 apart) Chromatic Semi-Tones (same line same space 1/2 step apart) and Whole Tones 2 half steps apart.
theres no way someone learning about 1/2 steps and whole steps could reason about all these other things.
could it just be that the book is wrong and it is in fact a whole step?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-04-25 13:20
Regardless of whether there is a typo in the book or not, look at all of the good stuff you've learned with your "simple" theory question.
Given the stated purpose of the chapter, it seems to me that this business with G#-Bb is a bit more conceptually advanced than what I'd expect in a chapter with that title. Oliver's response resonates with me. Regardless, of what goobly-gook term one can use for the written interval, a whole tone (major second) is what one hears when the interval is played. I've studied Theory for years and understand the pitfails of descending into Theory Nerdland. Always, the bottom line is how music sounds and affects us as players and an audience.
Roger
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marcia
Date: 2009-04-25 17:32
A question for those of you familiar with Theory Nerdland. A few years ago I played a piece which had the most irritating notation. (I loved the piece in spite of that) It was Helios Overture by Nielsen. Why was it necessary to write Abb-Fb, and not simply G-E? And that was one of many.
Marcia
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-04-26 01:05
We'd have to examine a copy of the Nielsen score to know for sure.
A generalized answer is either those notes are in the chord / harmonic structure (going beyond normal chords) in those measures or there is a melodic reason for using that notation...as an example off the top of my head a decending chromatic passage in minor 3rds.
In my compositions there are times when I use enharmonic notation in the individual parts in order to make passages easier to read by the players. In those cases, it should not make a difference to a musician whether a notated E is actually E in the harmonic structure or an Fb. At least that's my personal opinion.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-04-26 18:58
going into theory nerdland...
the reason the interval is written like that could be that its for example a E major chord going to a C7 to a Fmajor(sounds wierd, but it could happen!!). then its important to spell it G# as in the third in E and Bb as in the seventh in C.
and if the Bb is spelled A# its rather some kind of F#b9b5no1 going to a B major for example, instead of that supposed Fmajor.
in that context the Bb and A# would feel very different. the Bb would be feeling like going down to the A in Fmajor, and the A# would feel like going up to the B in Bmajor. dont know if its intonation, but its a certain feel anyhow.
//niclas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2009-04-27 03:54
I think that Dileep and Oliver are more on the right track.
I don't know why someone would describe something in terms of whole tones or semitones and then expect them to be looked at in an intervallic context. If it's even relevant that G# to Bb is supposed to be a diminished third instead of a major second, it seems to me that talk of whole and half tones is inappropriate in the first place.
If you're talking untempered, then maybe it IS 'other.'
I'll fully admit that I have no clue about diatonic vs. chromatic half-tones, but given that either of them would have to be wrong in that particular case, it sounds to me like someone having some fun composing the question.
They sound far more specious to me than 'major blues scale' or 'jazz harmonic minor' which I'm still working hard to stomach.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-04-27 12:40
Allen,
Diatonic versus chromatic half-tones are purely a matter of their context in the music. A diatonic half-tone is one that occurs in a diatonic scale such as E-F or B-C in a C major scale. Whereas, a chromatic half-tone is outside of a diatonic scale such as F#-G in a passage where the harmony is a C major chord. As we've been discussing, a half-tone sounds like a half-tone regardless of how it's notated. Music Theory often makes distinctions about intervalic names based upon a melodic or harmonic context.
PS, It's safe to say the textbook chapter in question is not taking into account non-tempered tuning. Intervals at this level of Music Theory are usually taught as how they sound on a piano.
Roger
Post Edited (2009-04-27 13:59)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2009-04-27 16:14
Regarding the issues raised about temperaments by an earlier poster. If you are a string player playing an instrument tuned to a non equal temperament, this would be a bread and butter question, so perhaps the author is one of these, pr at least someone who plays a lot of early music where it is much more usual to agonise over these issues. However, to the OP, I totally agree that in the context of the book it could be regarded as a trick question. G# and Ab are not the same note, but for the purposes of the beginner student they can be regarded as such and the answer therefore should be whole tone - perhaps an explanation of where the simple answer doesn't apply would be more appropriate. "Search for 'Pythagorean Comma' " would probably suffice.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-28 01:28
I think it's a "chromatic whole tone," because if it was an interval in a diatonic scale (thus making it a "diatonic whole tone," or, in the context of the book, simply "whole tone"), you wouldn't have mixed sharps and flats.
Mixing sharps and flats is a good clue that you're dealing with something chromatic.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-28 07:53
And if you're playing in C major but not on a piano C-D will quite often be bigger than D-E.
Nielsen's enharmonic notation can be very messy, as we know from the concerto, no?... very often when tonality gets 'extended' composers don't quite know when to change gear from sharps to flats and one or two double sharps/flats can be a more elegant solution.
The Jettel tutor has some C double flats in the distant reaches of the arpeggios. I don't know if there's ever an excuse for that!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
