 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-21 03:06
I have a question for you psychologists and music teachers out there. It's not about clarinet playing, per se, but it could easily be a clarinet question, so that's why I'm posting it here.
My 6-year-old daughter takes violin lessons. Her teacher says she's doing very well in most respects, especially for her age, as it takes her very little effort to learn the music.
HOWEVER....There are a couple of problems with the way she addresses the instrument relating to the way she holds her left wrist and the way she holds the bow (the violin-equivalent of embouchure and hand position if you will). Her teacher says that what she's doing will cause her bigger problems later on (they already make it harder for her to play with good intonation). The teacher thinks she could be playing much further along in the book but is hesitant to move on before we fix these little problems.
The real problem is that my daughter's very stubborn about not fixing these problems. Her teacher and I keep telling her not to collapse her wrist and to hold her bow correctly, but she doesn't see any reason why she should change what she's doing. We tell her and tell her, and she just ignores us.
Funny thing is that the teacher says that this is a problem she's seen with several of her students, and it seems to be the quicker learners that have this issue. This seems to be key to understanding this problem--it's a psychological challenge, not specifically an issue with violin technique.
We're all frustrated (teacher, my daughter, and me) because we'd all like to move on to more advanced stuff (she's clearly capable of pushing ahead at a more rapid pace, and I think she knows it, too), but at the same time if we don't fix these problems now they're going to come back to haunt us in short order--we don't want her practicing everything the wrong way.
Any of you guys (and gals) dealt with this sort of issue with your students (especially elementary school age)? What can the teacher and/or I do to help my daughter get over this hurdle? Her teacher and I are nonplussed! Help!
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Author: Jacob S
Date: 2009-04-21 04:31
Maybe she should be allowed to move on to some more advanced techniques, while addressing the problem? I have major embouchure issues, as in I haven't learned to touch the reed with my tongue or play with the back of my tongue "raised" to change the pitch and tone. I get to work on solos and etudes, and some stuff just to "know that I still know how to play," but I'm given specific scale exercises or slow etudes to work on an improved technique.
I've tried changing how I play many a times, but in the end I just get frustrated because I don't get the results as quickly as I want. Some change is better than no change at all, and I'm satisfied with my constant improvements. Basically, let her move on (not too quickly) so that she can still play "real music," but have her practice a different technique on the side and slowly incorporate it into normal playing.
Encourage her a lot, and as long as she keeps going at it, compliment her for the improvements. When you are learning to play all over again, it gets almost overwhelmingly stressful, and it's hard to see improvement by yourself. Let her take her time (I've been practicing a different embouchure for maybe 3 months now, most of my instructors have talked about changing their technique during college for years... but the change will be much easier since she is younger), and maybe set a "limit" on how much she can practice the new technique. My time limit is 15 minutes (whether I'm truthful or not), and this lets me practice the new embouchure in a daily routine without ever getting too burned out.
I just wanted to throw my advice out there because I'm in the middle of a similar situation.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-04-21 09:28
Mike wrote:
>> ...if we don't fix these problems now they're going to come back to haunt us in short order--we don't want her practicing everything the wrong way.>>
I think the important thing to guard against -- and I speak from experience here -- is the habit of using that 'we' too much, and too unthinkingly. It may even be meaning 'you and the teacher' in your more forgetful even though loving moments.
The question is, do you want her playing to be 'hers'?
I'd say it's the most important thing, really.
Tony
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-04-21 12:31
I'd be interested to know how this turns out. I can remember having the same kind of mental block trying to learn the correct Bb/Eb fingering, and how to use both sets of little-finger keys. It's very difficult, if you can't understand /why/ you're supposed to do it that way.
Are there exercises you can find that are /easier/ the 'right' way? In clarinet, for example, it's fairly easy to come up with exercises that demand particular fingerings. (I have an arrangement of 'O little town of Bethlehem' that requires both LH and RH little-finger keys, for example.)
A little something else: 'positive' instruction often works better; that is, actively avoid words like 'don't' and 'not'. This can be surprisingly difficult!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2009-04-21 12:39
Hi MRN,
I have periodically encountered the situation that you're describing as a teacher.
To sum up without going into details: earlier in my career I was dogged in making the student change "in anticipation" of the problem becoming a significant issue. Looking back I may have chased a student or two away for being so intractable.
Now I think I'm a much better judge of which students I can be dogged with, and which ones simply won't change until the problem's biting them on the @#$. Some of us won't change "because we're supposed to", not until we have the motivation of not being able to do something we WANT to do.
As you describe your daughter I think that you have one of the latter category. Instead of "nagging" her until she changes (and perhaps significantly diminishing her enjoyment for a period of time) why don't you advance her towards the music that will expose the weakness? You don't have to go headlong for it, but put it on the agenda in ever increasing amounts.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-04-21 13:29
Tony wrote- "The question is, do you want her playing to be 'hers'?
I'd say it's the most important thing, really."
--
This is a good point. From the post, though, I am not sure if the "poor technique" only results is "poor" result or if it is something that will cause an injury down the road. If the latter, then it really must be taken care of.
To MRN,
It seems from your post that you and the teacher are calling attention to the problem and asking her to change it. I have found that this can make things worse, especially for young children. I find a better method would be to something like...
Have her play something and, in with the rest of the lesson, "legato this... rhythm that..." correct her wrist position by calling no more than 15 seconds to it. Her teacher should just reach over and gently form her wrist into what is desired. Then, "Try these two bars again... Much better!" Then, quickly move on to the next passage and keep moving on; avoid making the wrist the focus of attention for too long.
As the lesson moves on, the old posture will creep back, and every so often, call only a moment of attention to it to remind her to do what you had just showed her. She will do it much quicker and with less fighting if she doesn't feel guilty about it.
Also, if the problem is both wrists, then work on them only one at a time.
One"golden rule" I have found in teaching is to avoid all grammatically negative sentences- they often make people feel guilty about what they are doing or what they might do. Above I wrote, "avoid making the wrist the focus of attention for too long." but notice the different feel if I write, "don't focus attention on the wrist for too long."
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Author: Margaret
Date: 2009-04-21 14:44
Hi mrn,
The problem you describe is not really psychological at its core; it is physical.
I'm not a psychologist, nor am I a music teacher, but a friend has been teaching me the viola since January (I love it!).
When I first started, I collapsed my left wrist (it kind of looks like she's 'pointing' with her inside wrist towards the violin or, less commonly, buckling it out and pointing with the outside - yes?). I also didn't hold the bow properly.
The bow problem was more of a coordination thing; you just have to get used to it. I cannot imagine holding it incorrectly now. It seems so much more natural. We had a couple of lessons focused largely on bows; this may help.
The wrist problem is different, because when you first start holding the instrument correctly, it *hurts*, as in shooting pain through your forearm. I'm fit, but apparently my forearm was not up to par for this anyhow.
What I did, because I wasn't about to continue this broken at the wrist position when told it was wrong and would cause problems, was play for as long as I could without pain (in the beginning, only about 3-5 minutes) and lower the instrument for a minute, and repeat this for the duration of my practice session. A minute in between is all it takes to make pain free progression.
You might try this. She will be a lot more willing to change if it does not hurt. It only took me a week of this and I could go an hour with no arm pain. I would ask her about this and suggest this pain free approach.
It really works too, when I went home at Easter my violin playing sister commented on my excellent left arm position :D
So the arm thing isn't really equivalent to embouchure. The bow arm, maybe, the left arm, no; embouchure building hurts (I know; my teacher had to change mine completely last year, because it was wrong), but not in this way. Embouchure pain is bearable; the left arm pain made me want to scream, and I'm not normally like that.
Good luck,
Margaret
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-21 21:25
In our Conservatory there are several teachers who work only with very young violin and cello students. The deal with 4-5-6 old children is that they get a lesson 3 times a week , half hour each time, and don't practice at home in the first year at all. They also get Dalcroze lessons, choir, etc.
In the first 3 years they don't have to play in exams or concerts, so the teacher has enough time to work without presser.
Sarah
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-21 22:39
Tony wrote:
<<I think the important thing to guard against -- and I speak from experience here -- is the habit of using that 'we' too much, and too unthinkingly. It may even be meaning 'you and the teacher' in your more forgetful even though loving moments.
The question is, do you want her playing to be 'hers'?>>
That's a very good point. I hadn't realized I was saying that until you pointed it out. Thanks.
I do sit there and listen to her when she practices, and I'll periodically point out things to her that the teacher pointed out in lessons (the teacher has asked me to do this), but as a parent, I try hard not to be a nag about it. If I can see I'm not making headway, I back off pretty quickly because some things are much better heard from the teacher, not me.
Sometimes I've even offered to leave the room and let her practice on her own when she gets frustrated, but she quickly tells me not to--at age 6, I think she prefers I'm there to coach her and give her praise when she makes progress. We clearly haven't hit the teenage years, yet.
So the last thing I want to be is a pushy parent (or to be seen as one by my daughter, so I'm going to be sure to be more careful about my language from now on). Fortunately, as with me and clarinet (I begged my parents for months to buy me one so I could learn to play swing like Benny Goodman), it was her idea to take music lessons to begin with--she came to me and my wife about it one day. And although I take a strong interest in her music education, partly because of my own interest in music, the last thing I want is for her to think that she's doing it for my sake, not simply for her own enjoyment.
The problem here, though, is that it's not just me, it's her teacher who's starting to feel stymied.
Based on everyone's suggestions, maybe the thing to do is have a talk with the teacher about letting her move on to some more challenging material where she (my daughter, that is) will have to fix the problems to get the musical results she wants.
Perhaps the real problem is that the teacher wants to do everything in her preferred order of developmental stages and that just isn't going to work for my daughter. I mean, my clarinet teacher (who didn't have a set syllabus she followed) started me on the Mozart Concerto before I had learned all 12 major scales, and I turned out just fine. Maybe my daughter needs the same sort of thing.
In the meantime, the teacher and I can continue to gently remind her about her wrist and also remind her to take breaks as needed to avoid too much strain on her arm/wrist.
Thanks everyone for their suggestions! (Feel free to add more, though... )
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Author: ginny
Date: 2009-04-21 23:01
I ended up when studying classical guitar as an experiement for a pedagogy class from a violinist. Her approach to children turned out stunningly good players and was grounded in letting the children feel what was right with very few words. Most kids were younger than yours however.
Anyway, they took me and got me to play scales on a viola, get my arm to swing like a monkey from the neck of the darn thing to be sure there was no bend in my wrist. but I was in a very good free position to move. They got me to do "spicatto" bowing - very difficult to learn by having two of them move for me and then let me go on my own after some muscle memory started in. When I got off they would jump in again and move me.
The woman when starting really young students would have her older students paired with little ones to go over and physically practice with them on bowing, actually moving their little arms correctly. Her goal was to never have them have bad technique, not from the first note ever. Alternatively she taught the parent to help the child.
I doubt that helps, but I do think that a very physical approach helps people learn. Your daughter is probably frustrated, as little ones get. However for my son learning music taught him to overcome frustration and "win" over it, a wonderful life skill.
Post Edited (2009-04-21 23:04)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-04-22 04:31
Tony, you've hit it on the head, yet there may be a little more.
She's probably fighting the change because she wants her playing to be hers (to be able to have a skill that most others don't), as you said, but my guess is that she also persists in fighting, and maybe even will fight harder in the future, because, by resisting, she has the power to be the parent (the person in a family structure who makes the rules and who controls the situation) and to watch how, by being passively aggressive, she can get her parents and teacher to get all bent out of shape about something that, for her, doesnt' mean much.
This is normal kid stuff: Kids want powers, test to see if they have powers (and what the nature of those powers are), and push to see how their powers work both to their benefit and detriment. (Bright kids do these things very well, whereas the more passive students--the ones teachers love--are less likely to.)
If you want to let your student own her own playing, and you also want her to stop fighting change, you and her teacher should let it drop for now.
If my guess is correct, if you persist at making such a big deal over this, you'll not only see even more resistance, but you may get to the point at which your student plays her trump card: refuses to play and begins to convince herself that she "hates" playing, thus ending her time with the flute.
FWIW.
B.
(Professionally qualified to make guesses like these.)
Post Edited (2009-04-22 22:00)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2009-04-22 12:31
Everyone above had good points. I would only add, this is a six year old. They don't like to be told that they are doing something wrong. I second the suggestion to play selections that will expose the problem.
I teach elementary school students to play band instruments. Sometimes the above works really well. I had a student this year who insisted on playing the clarinet with her hands backwards. I had some history with this child and knew she was, ah, firm in her beliefs. So we all learned how to play low B, and that helped because it was hard to do with hands switched.
Sometimes modeling after someone the student respects works as well. Not the teacher, unfortunately, but maybe another student.
Good luck.
Sue
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-22 14:37
Bruce wrote:
<<She's probably fighting the change because she wants her playing to be hers (to be able to have a skill that most others don't), as you said, but my guess is that she also persists in fighting, and maybe even will fight harder in the future, because, by resisting, she has the power to be the parent (the person in a family structure who makes the rules and who controls the situation) and to watch how, by being passively aggressive, she can get her parents and teacher to get all bent out of shape about something that, for her, doesnt' mean much.>>
That makes a lot of sense, and I think I understand Tony's comment a lot better now. Having skills that others (especially her siblings) don't have IS a really big deal to her. And I do think she tries to wield her power.
I'm going to discuss this with her teacher. While I understand the teacher's concern about having to unlearn bad habits, that's still preferable to my daughter's growing dissatisfied with the violin altogether.
Thanks!
Post Edited (2009-04-22 19:45)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-04-22 22:10
MRN, sorry about "flute" instead of "violin."
I should be able to tell the difference.
When I decided to try playing the violin, I had a terrible problem deciding what I should do with my mouth, and when I first played flute, I found that it was almost impossible to blow hard enough to get a pitch with the instrument tucked under my chin.
B.
Post Edited (2009-04-23 02:26)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-22 22:52
bmcgar wrote:
> MRN, sorry about "flute" instead of "violin."
> I should be able to tell the difference.
No big deal...it makes little difference in the context of my question.
On the other hand, if you had said fiddle, it would have been an altogether different matter. 
Post Edited (2009-04-23 02:40)
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