 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: musica
Date: 2009-04-20 01:07
What is the usual most preferred I should say, articulation of the 8th note
scale passage in the 3rd mvt. I have listened to many. Is it ever all slurred?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-04-20 02:24
Are you asking about the arpeggio at the end of the clarinet solo in mm. 131-132 in the Scherzo? Most everyone tries to play it as close to all staccato as possible, although even many excellent players will hide a slur or two in places where they won't be obvious. It's one of those audition licks that aspiring players use to prove how fast they can tongue. My own opinion is that I don't think slurs make a dime's worth of difference to the musical effect (but then, my tongue is on the sluggish side), although I wouldn't slur the whole thing. It does depend a lot on the conductor's tempo how much you can tongue and how many slurred pairs you might need to use.
Karl
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2009-04-20 04:06
Marcellus in the recording of Beethoven 6 with George Szell slurred the whole thing, he did however admit afterward that he regretted doing so.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-20 08:17
I have a feeling you can get away with slurs at the beginnings of the bars much more easily than at the end. Slur 3, tongue 3 would work well for both bars. You could certainly slur as far as the second A in the first bar of quavers without anyone worrying about it.
Of course as so often it depends a bit whether the question is about auditions or about music... ;-)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-20 14:31
I'd probably do slur 2, tongue 4 if I couldn't manage to work up the tonguing speed to tongue the whole thing.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-04-20 16:20
As mentioned, Marcellus did slur the passage. I asked him about it once in a lesson, naively thinking that there must have been some great musical direction from Szell. Marcellus responded that he couldn't tongue it fast enough at the time. He did add that he worked it up and tongued it in subsequent performances, as could be heard in radio broadcasts.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-20 20:17
I just played this today in an audition for a big orchestra here in London. I have always slurred the A to F# and tongued the rest. It's helpful to cut the quaver (8th note) A from the tie which helps if you need a breath but also the prepare for the arpeggio. I personally feel you need to tongue as much as possible in that excerpt.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-04-21 19:26
If one was to take Beethoven's metronome mark (dotted minim = 108), then it takes a pretty rapid tongue to pull it off. But one also has to ask whether the clarinetists in Beethoven's day would have played the whole section staccato. Just the fact that there are no slurs on the notes doesn't necessarily imply that all the notes have to be tongued. (And also whether Beethoven's metronome was really accurate?)
Auditions are another story. Whenever an excerpt is asked in an audition, we always have to ask ourselves why they are asking for that particular excerpt. This Beethoven excerpt is probably being used to judge a candidate's fast staccato, so for an audition IMO it is probably best to work the tempo up to as close to 108 as you can do it with all the notes tongued.
This is another example of how playing for an audition can differ from making music in the real world...
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-21 21:27
That's very true Liquorice. Have wondered that also regarding players in Beethoven's day. I also wonder about the metronome marks, I read, whilst still a student, that the metronomw speeds are different today than they were when it was invented. I can't quite remember if it was slower or faster. I may be wrong though.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-21 22:14
As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you can make a clock then you can make a metronome. There's no reason to assume Beethoven's metronome didn't work, and plenty of reason to assume it did. Indeed it's quite likely back in those days for each metronome to have been individually calibrated, which wouldn't be true for factory-produced mechanical models today.
On the one hand, it's a lot easier to get a period clarinet than a 'modern' orchestral instrument to respond to faster tonguing (at least it is for me). On the other, it's also quite likely that Beethoven's players wouldn't have had a complex about adding a slur or two so they would have won both ways!
But auditions aren't music... if there are two candidates who play the excerpt the same and one of them tongues it and the other one doesn't then no prizes for guessing who gets the box ticked.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-21 23:19
Oliver,
I too find it easier on the period clarinet, you just don't have to work so hard, the instrument sort of does it for you in a way.
Here in the UK I think auditions are music, the panel generally are looking for all round musicians and not just people with amazing techniques and not much else. The ablity to colour and phrase the big solo in Rach's 2nd Symphony is just as important if not more important than playing the right notes flawlessly in a technical excerpt.
As I said before, try and tongue as much as possible in that excerpt. To slur it all is a cop out but if it's not possible to tongue at speed then compromise. Just like in Beethoven 4, last movt.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-04-22 07:25
But surely Oliver and Liquorice are correct, that this is set as a test of articulation.
Anyway, isn't one of the secrets making very sure you depart on the arpeggio as promptly as possible so you are not compressing the notes to fit the tempo? just how obvious would it be for example if the top C appeared a demi semi quaver after the beat, which would give you almost a whole extra quaver of time to tongue most or all notes down to the bottom G?
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-04-22 16:10
Graham,
I never said it wasn't a test of articulation.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-23 02:43
I've always taught my students to do it two ways. One is as written if they can articulate it, or at least I have them work on it that way. The second way is to slur the first two notes of each measure in order to play it quicker as suggested in the Bonade book. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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