 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hat
Date: 2000-11-03 03:39
For any of you who might be thinking of bidding on the following ebay item
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=486389342
this bass clarinet was stolen from me 2 years ago. It is listed on the stolen instruments page here at sneezy. The person selling it claims to have bought it at a police auction, which means that the NYPD apparently recovered it and sold it without notifying my insurance company.
I would appreciate you informing everyone you know about this fraudulant sale. So far there have been no bids, and hopefully, the sale will be cancelled after my insurance company gets ahold of ebay.
In addition, there is no way to know the actual condition of this instrument. God knows what it has been through since it left my hands.
David Hattner, NYC
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-11-03 11:57
Good Luck, David. I've never been in that situation but I can certainly understand what emotions you migt have gone and are still going through.
John
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Author: Bill
Date: 2000-11-03 12:50
There are creative, though somewhat less than ethical, ways to insure that this auction is never completed (i.e., that the instrument does NOT get into another person's hands). I'm sorry to know this has happened to you, as I have always enjoyed your contributions to Klarinet.
--Bill.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2000-11-03 13:39
You may want to be high bidder in order to stop anyone else from buying it. Best of luck.
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Author: brianp
Date: 2000-11-03 13:39
Dear David,
Is there something that the rest of us can do to help you get your instrument back, i.e. a nasty note to the seller or to somebody at the NYPD? Let us know. I know I would be glad to help. (I can write nasty notes with the best of them.)
Regards,
Brian
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-03 14:16
Quite an unfortunate situation. I personally think that it would be better to contact the police rather than contacting this person directly. There is a chance that if they know it's a stolen instrument and somebody else knows, they might hurry to get rid of the horn fast, and then the search would go on. Another idea is to contact the ebay authorities, but your best bet is still the police department. I wish you the best of luck. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Bill
Date: 2000-11-03 16:06
Bidding is closed.
It's interesting that it was a private auction, meaning bidders "identities" were hidden, the seller appears to have posted pictures with other auctions, but not this one, and the serial number was not listed completely, but this seems to be typical.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-03 20:44
The dealer had listed this clarinet in a previous auction earlier in the week, with more information. David Hattner contacted him. See the klarinet list archives for the last week for a lot more information. Searching under "stolen bass clarinet" will bring up the relevant threads.
The dealer also closed the latest auction before the scheduled time. This new auction was supposed to run until November 8. The dealer abruptly shut it down today with the cryptic notice that he could not cancel bids. Only one person had bid and the reserve had not yet been met.
I've made a note of this dealer's handle, Doubledge@aol.com, so that I can be sure never to have any dealings with this person. Too many things about this transaction looked slimy to me. Do check out the list archives. David Hattner had quite a discussion with this sleazy character.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-11-06 11:30
My, JIM, what an enlighting remark ...
Folks, I don't know if this is the "real" Jim - only that it came from AOL and the e-mail address is that of the Jim that sold the clarinets. Jim may also have had a perfectly legal right to sell the clarinet. All the facts aren't in yet.
Moral right to sell the clarinet after Dave Hattner offered to reimburse him and cover his acquisition costs - that's another story ... and it depends on your view of morality.
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Author: JIM
Date: 2000-11-06 12:33
I am not writing this to defend myself, nor to respond to remarks made about me by some of you. However, I would like to thank those of you who have advanced the notion that I may just be an honest everyday person, caught in the middle of an
unpleasentness. I am, like many, a man of different moods, and, as they change, so too, does my moral and ethical interpretation of a given situation. The barrage of emails and anonymous telephone calls to my home, did in fact change my mood and hence, my final decision.
Before passing the instrument in question along, it was properly conditioned. I found it to have some very, very minor checking. Thus, I treated the barrel's exterior with almond oil and carefully cleaned the bore with a very high grade olive oil. The pads are all in fine shape. There are no leaks at and above normal playing pressure and the action is superb. Please dread naught about its condition, as I do know all about the proper care and feeding of fine musical instruments.
I enjoy being in the company of many different circles of friends, one of which is primarily composed of people from your profession. I do have complete access to this site. It is interesting and ever so amusing to note that some on your list have offered to purchase this exquisite instrument, in person, knowing full well, its provinance. Some, from the same list, have also tried a bit of deceit, toward what end, I do not know.
Thanks to all of you for spreading the word. You have inadvertantly bestowed a particular cachet upon this instrument, which is irresistable to some. Hence, you have most probably increased its monetary value enormously.
All the electronic scurrying about and frenetic verbal onslaught has, in my opinion, given this instrument the required notoriety to wear a name, rather than a serial number. The name will soon be added to the clarinet, tastefully embellishing it in sterling silver. Any one care to guess the name i've chosen?
Lastly, Mr. Hattner, though i'm sure its not heartfelt, still, I do accept your apology.
Cheers,
JIM...doubledge@aol.com
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2000-11-06 16:36
JIM wrote:
> I do have complete access to this site.
And why would you think you wouldn't ????
While I may (I do!) personally think that what you did is unethical even if it was legal, that would not prevent you from being in this discussion.
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Author: Hat
Date: 2000-11-06 21:59
It's me again. I have just read Mr. Jim's comments on the bulletin board. Although he makes me want to puke, I do hope he is lying when he says that there have been offers to purchase the instrument from some of you out there. And if it is true that he has oiled the outside and inside of the instrument, it is likely that he has done serious damage to it as well, particularly if he is not an expert or if he managed to get oil into parts of the mechanism. The instrument survived its first 10 years beautifully without oiling (of the bore).
Mr. Jim (who seems not to want us to know his last name. . .hmm. .. I wonder why?) seems to be increasingly expert about musical instruments, even though he professed much ignorance when I first called him. . .makes me wonder what really happend to my 3 superb mouthpieces which were in that bass clarinet case!
As for his idea of engraving a name into my instrument in silver, well, there's no accounting for taste (especially bad taste, but this whole thing has been distasteful).
Has it increased the instrument's value? I don't know, he claimed he had sold it already, now he says he hasn't. Honestly, I don't care, because he is likely to be spending some of that money on legal bills when my insurance company gets through with him. They called me today, informing me that they do intend to seek legal action against Mr. Jim.
Lastly, though Mr. Jim seems proud to announce to the world that I 'apologized' to him, he seems not to want to share the rest of what I had to say to him, which I print below.
______
I never called you any names that weren't accurate. "Jerk" and "Bottom Feeder" seemed appropriate at the time. If you are offended, I apologize. Perhaps I was reacting to the threat to destroy 'my' instrument (was it a joke? I didn't hear you laughing). For that instrument was mine for longer and in many more ways than it was ever yours. If others called you names, it was none of my doing. They were simply having an emotional reaction to an unfortunate situation. If I hadn't felt the instrument in question was in imminent danger of detruction, I probably wouldn't have alerted my colleagues, or the media.
I am happy for you that you made your profit. A real man does the honest thing and turns the instrument over to my insurance company. A scoundrel sells the instrument as quickly as possible, before an injunction could be filed against him (which was coming, believe me). Likely, he does not tell the buyer anything about the instrument's provinance. Then, he sues those who point fingers for harassment.
Bottom line. Your 'reputation' has not suffered. No one who will ever buy your used Maserati parts will ever have been a part of the clarinet forum. You sell 'recovered' merchandise on ebay, you take chances that some will belong to someone and that that person will be pissed.
I hope you slept as well as I did last week.
-HAT
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Author: JIM
Date: 2000-11-07 04:10
You remind me of a spoiled brat. I'm glad I pissed you off. Just a "get even" for your father's phone call to my son. The piece needed a dusting..period.
Neither you not I will ever see it again. As I said previously, I have disposed of it.
I will always remember this "piece" as "THE MAD HATTNER". ALICE IN WONDERLAND litigation aside.....case closed. Now, go bleed on your $5,000.00 replacement ax.
JIM
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-07 04:54
Hmmm... I am disappointed. I see that you guys have successfully found the cuss words that escape the automatic screening on this bulletin board. How mature is that? Perhaps if you would discuss your feelings, and try to come to some sort of a reasonable agreement, rather than resorting to childish insults and name calling, things would work out so much better for the both of you. Below, I have put a copy of my post on the Klarinet mailing list. I ask that you read it, and actually think about it. Is what I have to say really too unreasonable? Must this go on like this?
It is not often that I will post something on the Klarinet, but I think that the manner in which this whole stolen bass clarinet thing has been handled has been inappropriate, and even childish at times. I'm not pointing fingers at any one person, just the way the whole thing was handled. If one confronts another with methods of insulting, anger, and intimidation, is it so unexpected to receive a reply of a similar nature. Certainly one can't expect to be dealt with in a civilized manner if they do not do so themselves. It is also somewhat foolish to make hasty decisions based on only one side of the story. I have to admit that even I was guilty of that at first. It is even more foolish to start insulting and harassing without knowing the whole story. I think that both parties are fairly reasonable people, and had things been handled differently, it very well could have turned out well for them both. I fear that it is too late and things have gone too far, but I hope that differences can be set aside, and things worked out. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Hat
Date: 2000-11-07 13:45
Nate, your points are well taken. But, the truth is, only one of us directly involved in this situation can hold his head up. Pissed? Sure, why not? I wasn't working yesterday.
Today, I am rehearsing the Brahms Requiem and next week I am performing the Mozart Quintet with some really super musicians. I am too busy to fret for long about this, my insurance company is fretting for me. It is their money, after all. I make a living playing fine instruments.
It is obvious to anyone that Jim is being disengenuous when he puts the blame for how this situation has been 'resolved' on me. We had what to me was a very reasonable phone conversation on the subject, considering the situation. His impression was that I was going to do nothing and let him sell the instrument. I don't know how he got that impression, but it was mistaken. He used that as an excuse to blame me for his wanting to make an excessive profit on an instrument I know now he does not legally own.
I offered to reimburse him for his outlay at the alleged police auction. He laughed in my face and offered to destroy the instrument.He was trying to intimidate me, as he did when he later announced his gun collection. I suppose that is when my irritation began.
My new bass clarinet is a superior instrument in terms of intonation and projection. I wish I had my old mouthpieces back, but they 'vanished' somewhere along the line. I hope someone worthy of them is using them.
Sorry to take up your time with my personal food fight. Yes, it's more about me than you or Jim, but like I said, I have free hours to kill sometimes. See, there's another apology already!
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-11-07 18:54
Please let's be careful not to blame the victim here. Some of the facts are not in dispute: David Hattner reported this clarinet stolen to the police. It has been listed on the stolen instruments site here for about two years. IMHO, he has a right to be angry. The threatening and taunting words of "Jim" and above all the actions of "Jim" speak for themselves about his character.
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-11-07 22:17
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to blame the victim, who is obviously Mr. Hattner. After all, it was Mr. Hattner who had his intrument stolen from him. "Jim" did not steal the instrment, either. "Jim" has done nothing more illegal aquiring the instrument than the police department who sold it to him at the auction. Mr. Hattner has every right to be angry, with the threats and comments, though. I do not know all of what has gone on, but from what I do know, is that "Jim" has reason to be angry as well. On the other hand, what do you really expect when you threaten to run over somebody's beloved instrument with a car... Things like this can start out fairly politely, and later escalate into a heated argument. Perhaps Mr. Hattner could have been a little more careful with dealing with "Jim" at first, but "Jim's" comments soon went from bad to worse. I'd like "Jim" to know that it not completely matter of money and "Buy & Sell". A player's instrument often has much sentimental value to him or her. To threaten to run over somebody's intrument - well, take a child's lost dog, then in front of the child, tell them how it is your dog now, and you will do as you please with it, including running over the mutt. I doubt that you would do that, "Jim"... It is not as if Mr. Hattner just abandoned his instrument. My guess is that he would rather have the instrument back than the insurance money. I know I would in his situation. Mr. Hattner perhaps has said a few cross word out of anger, but you, "Jim", have at times allowed greed and anger to make you forget that people have feelings and emotions. I'm not referring to the manner in which you aquired the instrument, which as far as I know was honest and legal. It is the manner in which you have treated Mr. Hattner. I have seen attempts by Mr. Hattner to work things out with you. The only way this is going to work out is if both of you put aside all of the past spiteful comments, etc., and try to work out a compromise in a friendly fashion. My suggestion would have been to sell Mr. Hattner the instrument back for what it cost you, plus any other money you had put into the instrument. It appears that it is too late now. If it isn't, I ask that both of you try to make things work out. I'm not trying to insult or scold anyone, I'd just like to see things resolved peacefully. -- Nate Zeien
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-11-08 15:26
As I said on the Klarinet board, a properly conducted police auction cuts off the rights of the original owner.
However, before the police are permitted to auction something in New York, they must jump through a number of procedural hoops. Among them is a statutory requirement that they check the identification (description, maker, serial number) against police stolen property reports.
Since David Hattner filed such a report and the police never made the matchup, there is a missing link in the chain, the police had no legal right to put the instrument up for auction, and Jim never got good title.
The legal result -- David (or his insurance company) gets the instrument back, and Jim gets his money back from the police auctioneer.
Thus, Jim is wrong legally as well as morally.
Ken Shaw (who is also a New York lawyer)
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