 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-04-13 00:50
As I`m thinking of buying one I`ve been reading some past posts. and read from one poster "apart from its well known problems the R13 continues to be my choice of instrument"
Does anyone know what if any are well known R13 problems?
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-04-13 00:58
a deal breaker for me is the intonation. It's not horrible, but for the money, you can get a much better instrument.
Also, consider that the price of about 3000 gets you an entry level Buffet. For about 2000 you can have ANY of the top of the line Yamahas, all of which have better intonation and a better tone. My Yamaha CSV has a tone much like the R13 Prestige at a fraction of the cost and with significantly improved intonation.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2009-04-13 01:04
I agree with Dave, I would also suggest taking a look at a Leblanc Concerto II....they are without a doubt a fantastic horn, far superior to an R13 and without any of the headaches.
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
Post Edited (2009-04-13 01:10)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-04-13 01:40
It is very much in vogue to buy an R13 and then go to the great cost of having barrells and then bells etc. made? Does this not reflect maybe a problem with alot of R13's...the scale is not that great on most clarinets..but I think the R13s as of late are really not so great.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-04-13 03:16
Yeah, first you purchase an R13 then send it off to someone to bring it to proper playing condition, buy a usable barrel, and you can easily add 600 to 800 dollars to the total price... No thanks.
Oh, BTW, Yamaha has a 5 year crack warranty... FIVE...
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-04-13 07:35
Thanks for all your valuable comments. What is the mouth piece on the CSG? Is it still the ubiquitous 4C?
There is $300 difference in the prices here between a CSG and a CSG-H the H being the one with the Hamilton key plating. Is this of much value?
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-13 08:17
Rusty,
On the other hand, depending on where you want the instrument to take you, do check with local players what they use since in many places the scene strongly favours one instrument or another. I don't know if I ever saw a Leblanc being played professionally in Australia (apart from contras...)
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-04-13 09:27
No Oliver I don`t expect to go very far. It is just little bands in a coastal town area. They wouldn`t care what I played with, provided I was in reasonable tune.
Thing is I`m a senior, senior and this will be my last clarinet purchase. I thought why not the best.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2009-04-13 11:09
Dave said:
Yeah, first you purchase an R13 then send it off to someone to bring it to proper playing condition, buy a usable barrel, and you can easily add 600 to 800 dollars to the total price... No thanks.
Alternatively - just be careful over which R13 you buy in the first place and you won't have to do any of this. As for the intonation on an R13 being 'worse' than a Yamaha, worse is the wrong word. Different would be far better.
I've never played a Yamaha that I'd buy - I've also never cracked a Buffet. It's all done to personal preference. Rusty, get out and a try a load of instruments, I played an R13 for years right through college and into the early stages of my career - I then upgraded to a Tosca.
Hell, us Buffet Mafia family members aren't so bad.
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Author: klarinetkid
Date: 2009-04-13 20:56
Danny Boy said:
Alternatively - just be careful over which R13 you buy in the first place and you won't have to do any of this...
I think this really depends on the individual and how persnickety you want to be. As a former Buffet mafia member, I can't think of a single R-13 I've bought over the last 14 years of professional orchestral playing (had 5 of them, both Bb and A) that I haven't had to have extensive setup and tuning work done. I've yet to see an R13 from the factory that seals perfectly, has perfectly balanced key action, etc...
I agree that the Yamahas tend to come from the factory in much better shape, but the Bb and A that I picked out, while excellent, still benefitted tremendously from a visit to my repairman for a new instrument setup (complete repad, spring tension adjustment, tuning, other fine work, etc...).
One problem that people haven't mentioned is the fact that left hand pinky keys on the standard R13 have plastic pins- I've never had them break on me, but have known it to happen to some colleagues and if that happens in rehearsal or a concert, you're dead in the water until you can do some temporary repairs. For $3000+, you'd think Buffet would use higher quality materials, even though some consider it to be an 'entry' level professional instrument.
Nothing wrong with an R13 of any stripe, but it all boils down to personal preference. I may go with a set of Greenlines the next time around if the prices come down a bit in the States, but in the meantime, I'm really enjoying my Yamaha CSG clarinets.
Post Edited (2009-04-13 21:02)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-13 21:25
Rusty -
The "well known problems" of the R-13 have to do with intonation. In particular, the twelfths are wide. See Clark Fobes's article and the various responses at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Intonation.html.
The original version of the R-13 had the register vent smaller and higher than the current version. For me, the original had the most beautiful sound of any iteration, at the cost of a very thin, stuffy throat Bb and quirky tuning. The tuning could be improved with a reverse-conical barrel from Hans Moennig, Kalmen Opperman and other artist tweakers.
There was a substantial change in design around 1970. The register vent was lowered and enlarged, greatly improving the throat Bb (particularly with "resonance fingers" added, e.g. the left and right ring fingers and the right little finger low F key). The tone quality became less flexible but more powerful. My main instruments are from this period, with Opperman barrels.
The Buffet Vintage model brings back the original design. When you get used to it, it plays like an extension of your body and breath, but it requires a lot of adjustment to be played in tune.
Current competitors -- the various Selmer and Leblanc models -- have better intonation and a more even scale, but at the cost, it seems to me, of resistance that's too high for my taste, and a loss of beauty and the ability to make many different good tones. They're great for orchestral work, but less good for chamber music, which is what I play.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-04-14 02:35
I picked out my R13 at Marks Music in Hermitage, Pa. It was selected for me, from a lot of R13's, and I picked it out of 5.
I only paid 2300 (no tax) for it. I then bought a tuning barrel, for another 200.
I like it, I think its great. It tunes, for me, just fine.
Sometimes, I think we get caught up in the little details. We just need to play.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-04-15 12:27
The mouthpiece with the CSG is not the 4c..it is a 5c and quite nice. A little more open but plays very in tune.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-15 12:54
> One problem that people haven't mentioned is the fact that left
> hand pinky keys on the standard R13 have plastic pins-
When did Buffet switch to plastic pins? My 1977 Buffet R-13 in A has metal pins.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-04-16 09:52
Here (Aus) the Yamaha CSGs are cheaper than the R13s so I bought one today. I think it is a magnificent instrument but would make these comments:
Seller assured me that yes the instruments are all checked out prior to making available for sale.
I thought all springs should be adjusted to the same weight. The Rt pinky Eb and C keys were of significant different weights. The tech on my request went away and adjusted them.
The instrument needed cleaning.
I thought also that the clarinet should on deboxing be blown to see if all is OK. The mouthpiece was sealed in plastic, never been opened and it was impossible, no matter how much grease applied, to ever slide on the MPC or bell without removing a lot of cork. So it had never been put together by the seller or apparantly Yamaha.
I know these may be small points but because of the cost of the CSGs I expected something better.
Bye the way the warranty is 3 yrs. not 5 as I think somebody posted and of course Yamaha`s warranty wont cover any cracks even if one occurs the week after buying.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-04-16 12:29
"Bye the way the warranty is 3 yrs. not 5 as I think somebody posted and of course Yamaha`s warranty wont cover any cracks even if one occurs the week after buying."
Warranties vary by country, so duration and what is covered may vary by the market in which the instrument is sold. I haven't checked Yamaha's US warranty on the CSG, BTW.
As to Yamaha not covering cracks, that is not the case in the US. I know of a person here in Michigan who had her new Yamaha instrument crack, and Yamaha replaced the part under warranty.
As to not play testing, I would think they would leave the mouthpiece sealed so the customer would be the first to use it. Some people are very phobic about germs, as certain threads in this board can confirm. This is not to say that anyone ever play tested your particular instrument, but rather to indicate that the reasoning behind some of your points is not exactly airtight.
EDIT: This from tthe Yamaha USA web page:
All Band & Orchestral Division string instruments have a 5-year limited warranty.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-04-16 12:52)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-16 14:02
Lelia wrote:
<<When did Buffet switch to plastic pins? My 1977 Buffet R-13 in A has metal pins.>>
I think it was sometime in the mid to late 1980s. My Bb instrument was built in 1989 and has nylon pins. I've never had them snap, though.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-16 16:05
Thanks for the info, mrn. Nylon can be very strong stuff, depending on how it's processed. In theory, it also should be possible to use a space-age plastic strong enough for the job. I've never had problems with the metal pins on my pro-quality clarinets, but metal isn't necessarily an automatic indication of better quality. Some of the cheap clarinets have parts made of smelter that wimps out if you give it a mean look.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-16 19:03
Lelia Loban wrote:
> I've never had problems with the metal pins on my pro-quality
> clarinets, but metal isn't necessarily an automatic indication
> of better quality.
Actually, if you plan to keep your instrument for a very long time and you play a lot, there is at least one respect in which nylon pins are preferable to metal. With metal pins, repeated use over time not only wears away at the pin, but it also wears away at the little hole the pin fits into, thus enlarging the hole. After a while this makes the lever loose (my first clarinet--a really old Leblanc--had this problem).
With the softer nylon pins, on the other hand, it's the pin that takes most of the wear. When the pin wears down, all you have to do is replace the pin--you don't have the headache and expense of repairing or replacing the metal keywork. So from that perspective, nylon pins actually make a lot of sense.
Sure, it's a pain if you have one snap on you, but IMHO it's no worse having a busted pad or losing a screw. And at least with a broken pin, what you lose is a redundant lever--you CAN (at least in theory) use the alternative fingering temporarily until you get another pin put in. It probably won't be pleasant, but it is still possible to do.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-04-16 19:34
The day that Buffet switched to nylon pins was the day I stopped looking at any new Buffets for purchase and decided to permanently stay with my older 1960's and 1970's R13's.
Having witnessed the nylon pins failing on three of my colleague's R13's (once in the middle of a concert!) was enough to convince me that Buffet's new attempt to silence the key mechanism is a very bad design flaw.
If Buffet was so intent on redesigning the key mechanism, a better idea would have been to keep the existing metal pin, but coat it with teflon tubing, as many techs now routinely do.
BTW - For quite a while, Buffet replacement nylon pins (which cost less than a dollar) were almost impossible to find, forcing many techs to make their own out of nylon or metal (preferred) .
...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-16 22:26
GBK wrote:
> If Buffet was so intent on redesigning the key mechanism, a
> better idea would have been to keep the existing metal pin, but
> coat it with teflon tubing, as many techs now routinely do.
That is probably a better solution. The main thing (aside from preventing catastrophic failure of the pin) is that you don't want metal on metal.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-17 01:08
I believe that Guy Chadash replaces broken nylon pins with delrin, which is less prone to break. You might check with him.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-04-17 01:47
Peter Eaton clarinet solves this problem without using pins at all.
(Left) B,C# levers just sits on top of the corresponding keys.
There are no pins to make noises or breaking off.
I wonder why Buffet (or any other makers) doesn't use these simple
system.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-17 11:42
Actually the Eaton solution has been used on Bundy clarinets forever. The problem is that unless you put springs on the two left-hand levers (not an easy trick), they separate from the keys when you use the right-hand fingerings and produce clicks and rattles when the two parts come together.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-17 12:33
Koo Young Chung wrote:
>> Peter Eaton clarinet solves this problem without using pins at all.
>> (Left) B,C# levers just sits on top of the corresponding keys.
Ken Shaw wrote:
>> The problem is that unless you put springs on the two left-hand
>> levers (not an easy trick), they separate from the keys when you
>> use the right-hand fingerings and produce clicks and rattles when
>> the two parts come together.
Not necessarily. This doesn't happen if the balance of the levers in relation to their hinges is such that with the clarinet in playing angle, they don't move when you press the right pinky keys. That's how the levers are on the Eaton clarinet, at least with the angles I use when playing.
Actually I just checked, and the clarinet has to be almost parallel to the floor for the lever to rattle, and even then it's not annoying IMO. I never play in high angles (like e.g. Benny Goodman, etc.) but I do occasionally play with the clarinet pointing almost up, for some thigns that are only possible to do this way, and the rattling was never annoying.
From my experience at least in my area (almsot all play Buffet clarinets) those pins don't break often, but I still prefer the step linakge levers slightly anyway because IMO they just feel a bit better (not that it's that big of a difference either way).
Post Edited (2009-04-18 03:37)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-04-17 13:32
Ken Shaw
I never had any noise(or rattles) problem you mentioned.
The mechanism is ,in fact, quieter than Buffet's.
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Author: stimsonaa
Date: 2009-04-20 23:08
Rusty mentioned having the spring tensions made to match on the Eb and C keys of a clarinet. It's probably fine, but a caveat and explanation for the usually heavier spring on the Eb keys is that that key's design often uses a very short spring that needs to be fairly heavy in order to close the pad reliably, and that spring gets noticeably softer with use. Some techs don't like to make it as light as people request as a result.
On the other hand, I can appreciate the desire to have it as light as is viable as I have had issues with hand pain and playing tension before which started from playing on a poorly adjusted contrabass clarinet.
Albert Stimson
Midwest Musical Imports
www.mmimports.com
albert@mmimports.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-21 12:53
On clarinets where the lever rattles in the hole, I've stopped the noise by taking off the offending keys, then placing a scrap of fishskin (the kind that covers clarinet pads -- comes in a small packet, cheap) flat against the holes as I re-insert the pins. The pin pushes the fishskin into the hole and, in the process, wraps the pin in a harmless, easily-replaced coating to stop that metal-on-metal click. That's also the way to take up the slack in an enlarged hole on an old clarinet.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-04-21 14:14
Fishskin is also known as goldbeater's skin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbeater%27s_skin and has been used to quiet clarinet pin linkages forever. A repair tech gave me a 6" square piece 20 years ago, and I've used about half of it. Ferree's lists it at http://www.ferreestools.com/Pg.55-112.pdf on p. 102.
A right-sized piece is surprisingly difficult to shape and insert. One tech had pre-shaped round pieces about 3/16" in diameter, but he may have cut them himself. He dampened them slightly and pre-formed and trimmed them so he could just pop one on. He had single and double-thickness pieces to compensate for wear.
Ken Shaw
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