 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-04-12 08:12
Attachment: imperial key.jpg (134k)
I have a rather odd Imperial serial number 34XXX with LP also inscribed on the top joint. It has a strange but unique adjusting screw to regulate the RH F#/C# key lever and close the cup! "Patent Pending" is also inscribed on the rear of the bottom joint. Can anyone throw any light on this oddity? I have added a photo.
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Author: Jamietalbot
Date: 2009-04-12 08:19
The adjusting screw is a feature on the 1010 model and LP would mean low pitch- does it have an Acton vent on the bottom joint as well?
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Author: clancy
Date: 2009-04-12 09:04
34XXX dates it to 1939 - 1940, definitely pre war style and pre Acton Vent.
That mechanism on the RH Fsharp/Csharp became standard on Boosey clarinets and is still used today on Peter Eaton clarinets - Peter got his key designs and jigs from Boosey when they went under. I didnt realize Boosey came up with that design so early, as most of their pre 1950s clarinets Ive seen have not had that feature.
I have seen the "Patent Pending" stamp on other pre war Boosey clarinets - is the stamping on yours next to the left hand pinky keys, above the Eb/Ab pad? I dont think that patent went anywhere as the 1950s and later 1010s did not have that feature - assuming its the same design we are talking about.
Post Edited (2009-04-12 09:05)
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-04-12 13:03
Yes - the stamp is about 1.5cm above the Eb/Ab pad. Thanks to you both for the valuable information. So am I correct in saying this is a 1010 and not a 926 Imperial?
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Author: clancy
Date: 2009-04-12 15:54
Can you take a photo of the logo on the top joint?
I am not familiar with the stamping of the pre war 926 clarinets - something tells me it may look a lot like the pre war 1010s which were stamped very simply:
Made By
Boosey and Hawkes Ltd
London
34XXX
LP
What sort of mouthpiece do you play with it? I can see how it might be difficult to distinguish between an old 926 and 1010 clarinet as sometimes the bore has warped and opened over time leading to unusual tuning tendencies. If it isnt clear then you should have the clarinet measured internally to determine what it is.
I have seen some very warped pre war 1010 clarinets that tuned pretty well with a small bore mouthpiece; the small bore corrected the wide twelfths in the left hand.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-12 20:07
Does the instrument actually have name "Imperial" on either body or bell?
Does it have flat or grooved body rings?
I was not aware if the 926 was made pre-war but believe that the model was introduced in 1946. Similarly I think the name "Imperial" on clarinets, initially for both 926 and 1010, was also introduced post war (although it certainly existed pre-war on top line brass instruments).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-12 21:37
I've seen an identical pre-war B&H clarinet like this one (which I presumed was a 1010 due to the large bore) - there was also a metal guide by the lower end of the LH levers and the keywork was all mounted on rod screws as seen on 1010s.
At this point in time B&H were still making simple/Albert and Clinton systems.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spage
Date: 2009-04-13 09:07
I'm entering another instrument into the discussion... I think this is a similar (if not identical) model. It has the Patent Pending (above what I took to be a bracket for helping stablise movement with the long LH keys, but am happy to be corrected!), and also an interesting Eb/Bb (I think) trill key on the top joint.
The owner of the instrument thinks it has been in her family (or family-by-marriage) since it was new. I have some photos of it - not a complete set I'm afraid, circumstances at the time prevented that, and in particular I don't have any of the RH F#/C# so cannot confirm whether it too has the adjusting screw. In addition I didn't, at the time, have anything to hand to measure the bore. I suspect it is a 1010 bore - the owner does, successfully, use a more modern 1010 barrel and mouthpiece on it (possibly to help make the switch to her 'A', which is a 1970s (I think) 1010 with Acton Vent, more straightforward).
I'd be interested in comments from those of you with more B&H knowledge. I haven't yet made it to the Horniman but this is one instrument I certainly intend to check out when I do finally get there.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-13 10:21
That's the same model - I forgot about the Bb 'Bis' key spatula on the LH2 ring key.
The F#/C# key has a small lever on it that connects to an overlever from the F/C key with a sliding motion. And it's a right pain in the arse to set up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-04-13 10:22)
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Author: clancy
Date: 2009-04-13 10:39
Thats definitely a pre war 1010 you have there. 34XXX was a very desirable vintage.
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-04-14 11:45
The clarinet is free of any warping, splits or cracks and has Imperial only on the bell with the inscription as previously described on the top joint. It has the lever that Chris describes to stabilise the long LH levers. The body rings are flat and it also has the Bb spatula on the LH2 ring key. It's identical to the one in the photos posted by Spage.
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Author: clancy
Date: 2009-04-14 12:48
The bell may not be original then, any thoughts folks?
Can you take a picture of the bell and logo?
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Author: clancy
Date: 2009-04-14 19:52
If Mr Smale is correct about the Imperial 926 clarinet not being produced til 1946, then I would definitely say that is not the original bell. I have inspected dozens of pre war 1010s like yours and have never seen any stamped Imperial, 926, etc - they were all simply stamped Boosey and Hawkes Ltd and sometimes the serial number below it.
The Imperial 926 bells had a straight shape with little taper while the 1010s were much more rounded. I have heard of 1010 players using 926 bells on their clarinets to add more clarity and power, who knows what the past owners of your clarinet intended.
What do you plan on doing with your clarinet? There are still some players (including myself) who play on pre war 1010s. They arent worth much more than a later vintage 1010, but they have a fabulous sound and can work in a modern group, assuming the bore is in good shape and the tuning is reasonably acceptable.
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-04-14 20:44
This may sound strange but I have just discovered that I also have an Imperial in A with a serial number 37282. This was in a different case altogether and I now wonder whether these are a matching pair, given the close serial numbers? The A clearly says "Imperial, Boosey & Hawkes" with the sort of treble clef-like logo but it doesn't have the LH spatula or the RH stabilising mechanism as on the Bb. This was in a double case with an ebonised Imperial Bb and I guess the 1010 we have been discussing for some time has been taken out of the double case where it belonged with this one and swapped round (the trouble when you have so many clarinets!!)!
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-14 22:35
That bell is obviously a 926 one but would not be the original for an Imperial with your serial number which dates to about 1946 i.e. one of the earliest Imperials. The original bell would have had a cleff like logo very similar to that on the A upper joint. The logo you have is several years later (don't know exactly when it changed) which continued up to the end of 926 production. however the dimensions and shape would be identical to the original one ( and of course has a strict cone in the bell whereas the 1010 has a slight flare).
Many years ago I owned a pair of 926's (ex-Halle Orch) with ser nos 369xx/371xx and had same logos as explained above.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-04-14 22:39
Sorry, should have added to above post that your instruments are clearly not a matched pair as one is definately 1010 and other 926.
I have however heard of past players actually using an unmatched pair of these two instruments
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Author: andy collins
Date: 2009-04-15 06:41
I've since discovered that I do have the 1010 bell, but it was on another clarinet. With the groups assistance I am now able to clarify that I have a complete 1010 and a complete 926. Many thanks to you all!
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-04-16 01:20
Chris P wrote:
> I forgot about the Bb 'Bis' key spatula on the LH2 ring key.
I was interested to see this. The only other time I've seen such a feature is on a pair of 1936 Buffets, and I've struggled to think what use it is. About all I can think of is to do a C-Bb tone trill, but even that is a bit awkward. Seems a bit odd for Buffets and B+H to both have this key pre-war, but for it to then die out.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-16 01:34
It's there so you can play Bb by closing both LH1 tonehole and the 'bis key' spatula (as on saxes) with the one finger, but the Bb is slightly sharp with this fingering (and the Eb in the lower register with this fingering is too sharp to be of any use).
Though I can see with the 'bis key' the Bb-C trill can be done with LH finger 1 alone using the fingering x,oo|ooo for Bb instead of using the side, cross key or long Bb and trilling with more than one finger.
On saxes my main Bb fingering is the 'bis key' fingering, though I do use the side key and long Bb fingerings as well, but having tried this fingering on clarinet I found it doesn't work so well (but I still have side, long and forked Bbs - I've never used the cross key Bb and blocked that tonehole up).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: spage
Date: 2009-04-17 12:36
Belated thanks for another interesting discussion and for adding to my knowledge. I'd like to snaffle copies of the other photos if that's OK with their owners. I'll never manage a truly impressive collection of real instruments but a photographic collection's the next best thing when it comes to learning about different aspects.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-04-17 15:02
Chris P wrote:
> It's there so you can play Bb by closing both LH1 tonehole and the 'bis key' > spatula (as on saxes) with the one finger, but the Bb is slightly sharp with this > fingering (and the Eb in the lower register with this fingering is too sharp to > be of any use).
Thanks. I found the same tuning problems experimenting on my 1936 Buffet. In fact, they are so bad I thought there must surely be some other use for this key, but I couldn't come up with one. I hadn't realised it existed on Saxes as well - must have a look.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-04-17 15:22
I think the idea may have come from saxes, though its application on clarinets doesn't work so well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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