 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-10 22:22
This is a follow up to my former thread on Symphony jobs in the USA.
When I was a freshman in college I attended the Aspen Music Festival and the clarinet teacher, Earl Bates, principal in St. Louis at the time, told me I didn’t have what it takes to become a professional clarinetist. At the time I wanted to be a doubler, I played sax, flute and oboe too. When I came home I decided I wanted to become an orchestra player because I fell in love with classical music while in Aspen so I sold my doubling horns and bought a bass and Eb clarinet. Because of what Bates told me I got inspired instead of discouraged and doubled my practice time, by the time I was a junior, now studying with Leon Russianoff, I was practicing 28 hours a week and taking every opportunity that came along to perform in any orchestra I could, the Bronx Symphony, the National Orchestral Ass, The City Symphony, The Village Symphony, I even played occasionally with the Doctors Symphony and the NY Mandolin Symphony, playing clarinet of course, two paid gigs.
A student of mine at Peabody, by the way I’m retiring next year, a few years ago wrote on a teacher evaluation that I would have more students playing in orchestras if I didn’t tell them they weren’t good enough. That was not entirely true, she didn’t understand what I was saying. Every year at my first studio class I gave the same lecture. I told my students that if they don’t practice 3-4 hours a day they probably won’t be good enough to compete with those students from Curtis, Juilliard and other schools that in many cases are already more advanced then some of them and are still practicing that much and more. I used my former student Ricardo Morales as an example, who when he studied with me summers he was already more advanced then most students much older then him and he still practiced constantly. I told them that if you’re not as good as your competition you could not win a job. She missed the point of what I was saying. I also told them that technique is the most important thing to achieve and simply takes hours of practice. If you can’t play the notes in Daphnis and Chloe, Mid Summers Night Dream, The Firebird Suite etc. you can’t win a job. Once you have the technique then everything else becomes the most important things, tone, intonation, rhythm, musicianship etc. I consider articulation as technique. I stress that they have to have it all because so many others they are auditioning against will. Then it’s a matter of being in the right place at the right time and hoping what you have to offer is what they’re looking for.
The number of players trying out for the same job is mind-boggling. Well over a hundred applicants for each job, in many cases double that number, and only half dozen-orchestra jobs opened each year, more of less. So, as I try to explain to them, I’m not trying to discourage them from going after their dream, I just try to be honest about what it takes and what chance they have of achieving it. I made it because I wanted it so bad that I worked my butt off to achieve it. I learned all the major excerpts for clarinet, bass clarinet and Eb clarinet and had to copy most of those parts myself because there were no bass and Eb excerpt books, except the Strauss book, or photo copying machines back when. I was driven to prove Earl Bates wrong so I made the sacrifices and it paid off. I could not imagine doing anything else with my life. I think that’s what all college teachers should tell their students, be honest but also encourage and try to motivate them. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2009-04-11 00:14
LOL--way to "tell it like it is" ED P. To a much lesser extent, when I was a freshman in high school band, a junior clarinetist told me--in front of everyone--that I would never become a good clarinetist. That made me so mad, I started practicing and hour a day during the school year. When summer came, I begged my parents for clarinet lessons and started practicing four hours--two in the morning and two more every afternoon. Result--at the beginning of my sophmore year, I became first chair clarinet in the senior band ahead of all those senior & junior clarinetists--and stayed there for three years. Telling me "I didn't have it" motivated me to prove that I did have "it"--to myself and everyone else.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-04-11 00:22
Again... Ed is one of the few university teachers who are telling students the truth about the reality of music performance as a career.
You can play clarinet WITHOUT worrying about it being your sole financial source of remuneration, and you'll often contact fine musicians, meet wonderful people and have many fulfilling musical memories.
OR
You can worry and have to fight for the rare, insecure, average paying, often less than full time orchestral opening, to try and sell a product to an aging audience which is not being replaced by newer interested consumers, and to keep alive a musical institution which needs continual local and government sponsorship for survival.
Or, in more practical terms:
"Music performance is a great hobby -
But it's a terrible way to try and make a living."
Or, as one of my clever students once said:
"You're trying to reach out and capture the interest of Americans, ages 20 to 50, who you hope will repeatedly pay to hear music written 300 years ago by a bunch of strange men who lived in northern European cities.
The odds of that happening? Not particularly good."
...GBK
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-04-11 01:14
Heh... I always hear of people who are motivated to do something simply because someone tells them they can't. Seems to work pretty well for a lot of people, so I guess there's something to it.
I think it's important to take stock of my situation from time to time and look at whether I'm in a race that I really don't want to be in. In some cases, I kinda wish that someone HAD told me I didn't have what it takes, as it would have saved me a lot of time.
I don't take "this is a hard road that you're almost certain to fail on" advice so literally as defining a point beyond which I have to either quit or strive to prove someone wrong. However, I do take them as an often much-needed opportunity to look around at what I'm doing and where I'm going, and for that I really appreciate such advice, regardless of whether the person giving it knows what they're talking about. Sometimes I'll continue to plug away, sometimes I'll leave, but I take the advice as a moment of introspection rather than an adversarial ultimatum.
In any case, lately I've done pretty well making that determination on my own in a lot of things (e.g. I'm not pursuing film scoring as a career), as a result of which I've been able to refocus on things that I find much more unique and rewarding.
Even more odd have been the occasions when someone gives some *positive* motivational advice, suggesting that I could go really far in something if I keep at it, and THAT advice has made me take stock of my situation, realize that, while I'm decent at it, I don't want any part of it, and steer clear of that possible path.
But then, I suppose I have a rather strange personality. I have no real desire to be the best at anything, only to do something really well and to do it right, and to explore all the different ways it can be done, even (or perhaps especially) if I do it in the wings, without much fanfare. If there are 50 other people who want the orchestral job, or 30 people clamoring for a film scoring contract, and they'd do as good a job as I would, I'd just as soon have them do it, and try something different myself. Give me a kitschy new music group and a day job over an orchestral seat any day.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: george
Date: 2009-04-11 04:33
I believe a teacher should simply teach the subject at hand and not give unsolicited career advice.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2009-04-11 05:35
George,
Anyone who is studying at the collegiate level for a profession whose opportunities are so slim HAD BETTER have a teacher who provides "unsolicited career advice".
Anything else (from the teacher) is the reprehensible misleading of a minor.
Anyone who studies with a professional musician at a university is studying EXACTLY how to win a job.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-11 08:01
> Anyone who studies with a professional musician at a university
> is studying EXACTLY how to win a job.
Now to me that's not really the main thing a university is supposed to be for but I know that different countries (and different persons within them) have different ideas about that...
Being realistic seems fine to me. But telling people they can't make it just so they'll prove you wrong seems to have a risk attached. It assumes a certain kind of determination to be there from the start when just maybe that kind of determination (and more to the point faith in themselves) is something you should also be able to teach. Indeed maybe it's those particular students who actually need you and the others will make it whatever you do.
Maybe.
Post Edited (2009-04-11 08:54)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-11 08:42
>> Anyone who studies with a professional musician at a university is studying EXACTLY how to win a job <<
This is definitely not true everywhere for all teachers. I guess I should feel lucky then that it was completely different from this when I was in uni (studying with professional musicians, as you say). Actually, when I think about it now, my favorite teachers were the furthest away from this philosophy. If what you say was the focus in uni I would probably get bored very fast and maybe even quit.
Of course some teachers talked about the reality of being a musician (which is probably more difficult in my country than USA or most European countries) and had all sorts of suggestions.
I assume some teachers here too focus on this, because that's what some people want/try to do after they finish uni.
Re telling someone they are not good enough to do something and motivating them, sure it can be offensive and insulting. But if someone knows what they want to do, then they search for ways to do it and aim for this direction. For example someone might not be itnerested at all in "winning a job", or playing any of the examples in Ed's post. OTOH it's possible that someone could play those examples very good, and it would have no effect at all on their ability to do what they actually want to do.
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-04-11 12:05
Oliver-
Perhaps what these teachers who use this "reverse psychology" to motivate their students are thinking is that, unless the students don't have the determination and motivation to prove them wrong, there is no way they will actually be able to make it in the professional world. Just a thought.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-11 12:47
I think the truth is always better than a white lie dressed up as "positive thinking," but the "reverse psychology" tactic is dangerous. No question it works on some students, some of the time. I used to respond to "You can't" with "The hell I can't!" Although I never deluded myself that I had the right stuff to aspire to a career as a professional musician, I attribute my adult acquisition and lunatic adoration of an Eb contra clarinet and a bass saxophone to my grade school and junior high school band teacher refusing to let me switch from soprano to bass clarinet way back in the 1950s because, according to him,"Girls don't play bass instruments." The hell they don't!
But the tactic can backfire terribly, even with people who sometimes respond well to it. In school, I got along fine with a number of teachers other kids hated. I did my best work for those challenging meanies. But, as an adult, I got my first and only serious, career-threatening writer's block after a fellow writer (an excellent editor, too), pronounced a dire verdict on a piece of fiction, and pronounced it in such devastatingly unconstructive language that I was unable to complete and submit a piece of fiction for more than ten years afterwards -- even though I suspected part of the reason why he'd reacted as he did had nothing to do with that particular manuscript. (Too long and too irrelevant story to put here.) Some of his advice was good advice, by the way, but if he meant the other stuff as a challenge, it backfired in the worst way. I thanked him for the advice and stayed friends with him but it took me years to get over the fiction block. Be careful. A well-intentioned challenge can lead to unintended consequences.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-11 12:56
Ed,
This is a very big issue, and thanks for bringing that up.
We can't tell students the "truth" because we don't know it. Some
students are sprinters and some are long distance runners. Some of the most promissing students will have a very short career and some will start blooming at the age of 30.
We, the teachers, have to give them good foundations and especially- the tools to be independent as soon as possible.
I do agree with you that it is better to start practicing very young (as RM did), also because at young age (11,12) they don't have to practice the clarinet for 3-4 hours , because they learn much faster. They can use the extra time to learn solfege and keyboard and be better musicians and not just brilliant instrumentalists.
Unfortunatly most outstanding professionals don't take very young students and focus on University level.
Sarah
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2009-04-11 13:06
Thank you very much Ed! It, unfortunately, seems hard to find an honest person in this business.
"I believe a teacher should simply teach the subject at hand and not give unsolicited career advice."
Then how is the student going to be ready to cope with the real world when he/she is out of the hands of the teacher? I have learned so much outside "the subject at hand" that I would not have learned otherwise and I admire those people for that.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-11 14:20
"I believe a teacher should simply teach the subject at hand and not give unsolicited career advice." I think that is a very unfair and unrealistic statement. At the high cost of education today, Peabody costs over $50K for a freshman before financial aid and what ever small scholarships they give, I think a student needs to at least be told how hard they will have to work and how few job opportunities there are for them when they graduate. They should also realize that there are alternatives, like military service bands, doing a minor if interested etc. I never suggested telling a student what Bates told me, that they couldn’t make it. I'm only suggesting that the teacher not paint a rosy picture and tell the student what it will take for them to be competitive. How does a teacher feel when a student has graduated with $100K in student loans and they knew all the time there was no chance of them ever getting a symphony job. Encouragement yes, enthusiasm yes, but also honesty, yes. There simply are not nearly enough jobs out there for the hundreds of clarinet students graduating every year so it's only fair that they know some time in their student career so they can be considering what else, hopefully in music, they can do to make a living and pay back their student loans. But as I said, with encouragement always. I’ve never told a student they can’t make it, only what they have to do if they expect to be competitive. ESP
By the way, you can check out my website to read my page on "Auditions". http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-11 15:09
Ed, I agree with you about all of that. I'm grateful that nobody ever gave me false hopes about music, in a misguided effort to be kind or encouraging. I think I enjoy my life as an amateur musician much more now than I would have if I perceived myself as a *failed* professional musician.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-11 15:49
I had a (hopefully well-meaning) teacher (not my own instrumental teacher) tell me at university that I'd better start moving into musicology because 'there's no way you're going to make a living out of blowing that tube'. He also made steps toward nudging me in that direction by sending all the good orchestral and other performance opportunities towards a select handful of students. By the end of my degree I was thinking OK, that was the clarinet, had my fun (or otherwise) with that, time to work out what to do next.
I had been accepted into a music camp a couple of months after - it was a nationally auditioned thing (in Australia). I went to have a look at the lists to see which of the (three, ranked) orchestras I would be playing in, if any. Started at the bottom of course - oh, I'm not in that one. The middle one - oh, not in that either, I suppose I'm out then. Who's in the top one I wonder? Oh, me, playing all the first parts. Oh gosh, Brahms 4 (and sundry other jollies).
There was also a wind quintet of the first players in the orchestra - Kim Walker was tutoring it, maybe some here know her. There was one particular rehearsal where she seemed to have a problem with everything I was doing - we couldn't get through a phrase without her stopping us to tell me to do something different. All a bit dispiriting... so, back to my room to have a lie down and chill out before dinner. Kim knocked on the door and said something to the effect of: sorry if that got you down a bit - it was just that every time I suggested something for you to do, great things happened.
Then after that, finally back home to find a very gnarly newish solo piece waiting in the letterbox from a friend who wanted to keep going with an ensemble we'd had in our final year. So I thought: OK, I'll give this clarinet thing a bit more of a go.
Looking back on my university year I think I'm now actually the only one of us who really does make a living out of blowing his tube. (As opposed to teaching, for example, which is great of course but isn't what that teacher nearly 20 years ago was talking about.) But it's no thanks to his comment, it's thanks to a couple of much happier things that happened later and which could easily have not happened at all - some actual encouragement as opposed to this 'reverse psychology' idea.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-12 13:17
Good for you Oliver, as I said, honesty but encouragement too, students need both. If one teacher can't give it then you can get it from two, as in your case. A student should not be discouraged, just being told what it will take for them to make it and to "consider" alternatives, even if they are very good. It's a tough world out there and only a very few will make it. ESP
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-04-12 16:42
I think perhaps a bigger problem in all of this is that many university and conservatory programs tend to treat a performance major as a training program for an eventual orchestral job. It can become less about exploring what makes music music, less about finding one's voice, less about establishing perspective, and less about creating one's own musical opportunities (which is what just about all the non-classical musicians do), and more about achieving utmost precision on a handful of the same solo repertoire as everyone else, plus a bunch of excerpts that are tragically taken out of any hint of musical context.
I know that isn't ALL that goes on at programs, but I think that most of the reputable ones are, to some degree, guilty of it.
This leads to a tragically impotent group of almost-good-enoughs. People who are quite good musicians, but always seem to be one step short of winning the ever-elusive symphony gig. If they were more resourceful, I think a good many of them (more than do now, at least) could innovate themselves some really fantastic, satisfying opportunities. However, most of them were trained with the "someone makes jobs and you audition for them" mentality. Therefore, they much more commonly end up "settling" for unsatisfying gigs, community orchestras that mean well but are below the level the musician is accustomed to, etc., and sooner or later give up on taking orchestral auditions and -- and this is the tragic part -- at this point also resign themselves to not playing as much, or at as high a level.
At this point (and not that there's anything at all wrong with this if it works for you), the actually quite good musician either abandons the instrument entirely, or accepts that they'll be an "amateur" from there on out, which, at some conscious or subconscious level, seems to suddenly close an incredible number of possible doors to musical coolness.
I think that if programs focused more on "here's all the cool things you can do with music" rather than "here's how to pursue a slim chance at an extremely elusive career," we'd have a more vibrant community of good musicians who continue to make good music, without going the "oh well, I guess I'll never make it all the way, so I guess I'll settle" route.
I'm not meaning to disparage those who play simply for the love of playing... that's great! It's just sad to see musicians who are at a very high level, on the edge of possibly doing some really really cool things with music, abandon all the possibilities they probably aren't even aware of, simply because they've been conditioned to consider landing an orchestral gig to be the benchmark of successful musicianship, with anything other than that as an indication of a lack of success.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-12 17:41
EEBaum wrote:
> I think perhaps a bigger problem in all of this is that many
> university and conservatory programs tend to treat a
> performance major as a training program for an eventual
> orchestral job.
Alex,
Universities don't have much choice. Good musical education should start much earlier. A student who didn't get good training as a child is like an immigrant who learn a new language at university, it will never be as good as someone who spoke the language in his childhood.
let me explaine my self with an example:
Israel is a country of immigration. There is a very good system of Hebrew schools (the Ulpan) , that teaches Hebrew within 6 mounth.
People who were born in Israel learn Bible at school for 12 years (I'm talking about secular schools). We learn the Biblical language, the 'story' and the history.
People who learn Hebrew at the Ulpan speak well but they don't know the Biblical Hebrew and their language will always sound without roots.
Its the same with music- university is like an Ulpan for people who didn't get good education as children.
Good musicians MUST work with children.
Sarah
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-12 18:39
I can't speak for others, I know most teachers probably don't do this, but in my studio class we listen to jazz clarinet players, klezmer players, I don't play either, and I speak of other opportunities in performance careers as well as teaching and all the other things I've mentioned above because the bottom line in this. In America there is approximately one symphony job opened for every hundred, or perhaps more, players wishing to have that job. That's the bottom line; there just aren't nearly enough jobs to go around even for the very best qualified. If a student isn't in the very top of their class how do they expect to compete for the few orchestra jobs against all the others that are on top of their game. We just have to be honest with them and let them know of other opportunities there are to make a living from what they love to do. I don't think that's too much to ask of a university or conservatory teacher. Be honest and encouraging. That was the Russianoff way, that’s the right way. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-04-12 21:58
I started my college career as a music education major. Got a couple of small scholarships, and thought I'd be a band director who was pretty good on clarinet. I had been in the regional and all state bands throughout high school, and easily held first chair in several groups. As far as I was concerned, majoring in music was what I was meant to do and I was passionate about it.
Was a music major for 2 years. During that time, I had an excellent private teacher, enjoyed my music theory classes and being part of a big college marching/concert band. I also suddenly found myself sitting in the 3rd clarinet row, making B's andn C's on my jury grades, and met many other music majors. Soon it became clear to me that on a bigger stage, I was reallly just a mediocre musician.
My passion for pursuing my degree in music waned because I became honest with myself. When I changed majors halfway through my college career, I wasn't sad, or felt as if I had failed. Instead, I felt I knew myself better, and was excited to pursue my degree in Communications, which I found infinitely interesting and full of possibility once I had a diploma in hand.
My teachers never "told" me that I wasn't up to snuff. They just didn't give me praise I didn't deserve, and were honest when it came time for chair placement and grading. For that, I appreciate their honesty and now am happily and deeply engaged with our church music program as a volunteer.
I married a music major (jazz piano), and he easily makes his living doing all things musical and I celebrate his ability, which is so drastically superior to mine. Please, give your students the gift of helping them find a career, music or not, by being honest.
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Author: chorusgirl
Date: 2009-04-13 15:42
As a teacher, I think managing expectations is an essential component of the job. On the level I teach, it is vastly different from dealing with students who are making career decisions (and investing huge amounts of money to do so) but to some degree, it is still important.
I have many students who all want the solo at the concert, who all want the lead in the show, who all want to go to the performing arts HS, but how many of them are willing to put in the time and effort to prepare adequately? How many of them have the raw talent, so that even with the effort, they will succeed?
I tell all of them what is needed to be competetive when auditioning for anything, and can see fairly quickly which students are turned off by the work required. That's OK - that same student may not think twice about putting in hours a day on a practice field for their sport, but balk at the same commitment to music. I manage their expectations. People need to be realistic about what they are doing with their lives.
I knew a fellow years ago, an aspiring symphony clarinetist, who went to the local college. He was good - but everyone around him told him he was great, beyond great. He went on numerous auditions around the country, and of course, never got anywhere. No one ever told him that he was good for OUR AREA, but not truly competetive on a national level.
He spent several years, and a considerable amount of money, only to have his hopes dashed time and time again. After about 4 years of this, he found himself facing the grim facts - he was not going to realize his dream of playing with the NY Philharmonic, with Philadelphia, with Chicago. BUT, he had no backup plan. Sad story.
By the time a student reaches the university level, I think teachers MUST be honest. It doesn't have to be done in a brutal fashion, but it has to be done. This is people's lives, and livliehoods, we are talking about, and to ignore, or sugarcoat facts does a disservice, IMO, to the students.
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Author: chorusgirl
Date: 2009-04-13 15:45
Q for ESP -
Ed, I'm just being curious here - a former student of mine went to Peabody (earned his MM and DMA there) in piano, I wonder if you knew him - Vincent Craig? Thanks - Marge
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-04-13 15:56
"I believe a teacher should simply teach the subject at hand and not give unsolicited career advice."
-------------------------------------------
I feel that students need *qualified* guidance. And they need to be set straight if they are on the path of unemployment.
I guess if the teacher is inexperienced, or not comfortable in that way, they shouldn't give career advice, but a qualified teacher needs to guide their students to gainful employment. That includes giving them options besides just performing. And if the student is completely hellbent on performing only, the more "real" the teacher needs to be.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: katzer
Date: 2009-04-14 05:16
Ed Planaker wrote:
"In America there is approximately one symphony job opened for every hundred, or perhaps more, players wishing to have that job."
I think most students are intelligent enough to draw the conclusions from that statement alone.
There is no need to rub that fact into someone's nose, chances are it is already rubbed in.
Question to Ed:
After so many years of teaching, do you think that approach did more good or harm?
Erez
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-04-14 07:57
I think a lot of this issue boils down to 'honesty' vs. 'reverse psychology'. As well as I can tell, Ed has been advocating the former and not the latter.
Ed, I'm with you 100% on the honesty thing. As for the 'reverse psychology' thing, anyone who needs that probably doesn't belong in an applied woodwind program.
Allen Cole
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-04-14 08:06
I think all Ed was originally saying was, to quote a classic TV series
" You got big dreams, you want fame, well fame costs, and right here's where you start payin - in sweat"
Vanessa.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-04-14 11:18
Hi Everyone,
Great thread, Ed and posters. Ed, as far as retiring, I've tried to many times and can't seem to get a passing grade (I"ll bet you stay very active for many years).
Anyhow, I'm a mostly retired professor in a non-music field (aviation). I teach my students very well, know the subject in depth, and have lots of practical experience.
But here is the twist (just like telling students about career "rocks and shoals"). When my students turn in written work, I grade it to include grammar, internal logic, format, and style as well as the subject content. I am a tough but fair grader here. This, to me, is just like teaching the pedagogy and throwing in some career advice.
We do our students a disservice if we are not realistic of what is expected of a successful practitioner in any career field. From my perch, writing and expressing yourself is just as much a part of the academic fiber as the obvious nuts and bolts.
HRL
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-14 12:19
I would like to add something about 'honesty';
When a 50,000$ university accepts a student it should mean- we belive that you can be a professional musician. But telling a student inside a good school that he may not be good enough to make his living as a musician...
that means that the university is a business, and the student is there to pay the teachers salary. An "honest" school or teacher will take a small nomber of students.
Its not easy to say it but that, I belive, is the only way to be honest.
Sarah
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-04-14 16:20
The teacher may need to have a talk with the parents, too. The parents may have absorbed the "self-esteem" and "empowerment" mantras to the point where their idea of standing behind their kids and encouraging them may mean hovering with constant, exaggerated praise:
You can be anything you want to be!
You have unlimited potential!
Dare to dream!
You can have it all!
The pernicious effect on the kids can work both ways: It's bad if a child believes such nonsense and turns into an egotistical little diva who won't do the work, but it's also harmful if the child reacts with such skepticism that all of the airy persiflage translates to:
If their mouths are moving, they're lying.
I can never live up to their expectations, so what's the use of trying?
They're trying to build me up because they suspect I'm worthless.
I mess up everything I do.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2009-04-14 16:21)
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2009-04-14 16:32
First of all, what a great topic for discussion, especially for those who aspire to be a professional clarinetist.
I'll spare everyone my personal tale of woe. Suffice it to say that I was more fortunate than many and was able to exist (I won't say, "make a living") as a professional clarinetist for a few years, but never grabbed the brass ring of an orchestra position that paid a living wage or came with a teaching job that made it possible to say that you had a career and not just a succession of jobs.
Many posters have commented on the fact that conservatories and universities with respected music programs have productions lines that churn out thousands of well trained, highly skilled musicians every year. Unfortunately, they enter a world that has jobs enough for, maybe, .5% of them. It's as if in 2009 there were 50-100 schools that were training the best farriers that the world had ever seen. Unfortunately, there just aren't that many horses who need new shoes.
The failure of the conservatory system, as it existed when I was a student, was that it prepared you for one way to obtain a job: take and win an orchestra position. I felt then, and feel more strongly now, that the schools I attended could have better educated me (not a natural entrepreneur) on how to create your own career. They might have explained that perhaps you won't win a position in an orchestra, but that, dammit, we have trained you well and here are some ways to attempt to create your own niche. Specifically, I mean information on networking for dummies, how to find available grant money for concerts or to support a chamber music group, how to effectively write a grant, how to present yourselves when you are asking business people to underwrite your projects, and myriad other things about the business of music.
Not to be totally negative, I did learn a number of things from my music education that were transferable to the wider world of business I entered after my attempt at a career in music derailed. In business you have to be a good subordinate, a good co-worker, and a good boss. Anyone who has ever sat in an orchestra understands the top down management style. Just as in an orchestra, in business sometimes you just have to salute, say "yes sir", and do what you're told, never mind what you think. Working in small groups in a business situation is just like a chamber music rehearsal; you have to reach a consensus opinion or else the group devolves into argumentative name calling and nothing is accomplished. I'm also surprised at the number of people I've worked with who are incapable of analyzing a problem, breaking it down into its smaller parts, fixing the smaller problems and arriving at a solution to the larger problem. Any serious music student who has ever tackled an etude, sonata, or concerto knows, almost intuitively, how to problem solve. Finally, so many people I've worked with in business have the attention span on gnats and no self discipline. Again, anyone who has seriously studied an instrument and has spent time by themselves in a practice room is far ahead of most of their contemporaries. I'm reminded of an article I read many years ago about the, then, CEO of IBM. He voiced his displeasure about the rise of the MBA, saying that what he wanted were people with liberal arts degrees who had learned to think. IBM could teach them what they needed to know about the business of IBM. My point being, that if and when you have to join the wider world of work, there are worse things you could have done with your life than pursue a music degree.
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Author: george
Date: 2009-04-14 19:19
Tom's comment about the consequences of the existence of many schools for training farriers reminds me of a story I heard about the man who devoted the first thirty years of his life learning how to slay dragons. When he had mastered dragon slaying, there were no dragons to slay. So, he opened a school to teach others how to slay dragons.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-14 22:54
"Question to Ed:
After so many years of teaching, do you think that approach did more good or harm?"
I can only say that I have several students that realized that they were not going to make it as a symphony player and took other musical roads for graduate degrees. I've seen many students, especially in other studio's, that are not realistic. They think they're all going to be great symphony players, but few if any, ever have made it. Please remember, I don't advocate discouraging students from going after their dream, I just let them know how difficult it is to reach that goal and that they have to make great sacrifices in time in the practice room and have to sacrifice some social life time but I never tell them they can't do it. It is surprising how many students don't realize how few jobs there are until I tell them. I was very naive when I was a student and when I realized what I was facing i really turned on the practice time. One of the problems today is that there are so many more schools graduating "clarinet majors" today then there were when I graduated and only a few more jobs. Probably ten times the number of students. It used to be 40-50 applicants for a good clarinet job when I was auditioning, now it can be a couple hundred. Do the math. By the way, I'm only retiring from Peabody, not the BSO. We call that semi retired, only one job. My kids are out of college and my mortgage is paid for. I will continue to upgrade and add to my new website though and teach privately, I still love to teach. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: katzer
Date: 2009-04-15 03:05
I am really surprised that students have such little idea about the field they choose to major in.
I grew up in Israel, where there are essentially 2 Orchestras that pay more or less ok and all the Clarinet sections positions are full for decades to come, most folks have little to no miss-conceptions about the prospects of an orchestral career.
Ed Palanker wrote:
> "Question to Ed:
> After so many years of teaching, do you think that approach did
> more good or harm?"
> I can only say that I have several students that realized that
> they were not going to make it as a symphony player and took
> other musical roads for graduate degrees. I've seen many
> students, especially in other studio's, that are not realistic.
> They think they're all going to be great symphony players, but
> few if any, ever have made it. Please remember, I don't
> advocate discouraging students from going after their dream, I
> just let them know how difficult it is to reach that goal and
> that they have to make great sacrifices in time in the practice
> room and have to sacrifice some social life time but I never
> tell them they can't do it. It is surprising how many students
> don't realize how few jobs there are until I tell them. I was
> very naive when I was a student and when I realized what I was
> facing i really turned on the practice time. One of the
> problems today is that there are so many more schools
> graduating "clarinet majors" today then there were when I
> graduated and only a few more jobs. Probably ten times the
> number of students. It used to be 40-50 applicants for a good
> clarinet job when I was auditioning, now it can be a couple
> hundred. Do the math. By the way, I'm only retiring from
> Peabody, not the BSO. We call that semi retired, only one job.
> My kids are out of college and my mortgage is paid for. I
> will continue to upgrade and add to my new website though and
> teach privately, I still love to teach. ESP
> http://eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-04-15 03:06)
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-15 03:47
katzer wrote:
> I grew up in Israel, where there are essentially 2 Orchestras
> that pay more or less ok and all the Clarinet sections
> positions are full for decades to come, most folks have little
> to no miss-conceptions about the prospects of an orchestral
> career.
No Erez,
There are 10 professional orchestras in Israel, and at least another 5 that
have part time jobs.
Sarah
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Author: katzer
Date: 2009-04-15 05:39
The Philharmonic and the Police band are the only ones that pay a decent salary and other benefits.
My father played the double bass in the Philharmonic for over 30 years. He did not get rich out of it.
I might be forgetting the Opera orchestra but I don't know personally anyone who plays there. Let's say they do, that's 3 orchestras.
I do know personally folks who play in other orchestras and those are very tight sources of income that have to be supplemented with gigs and teaching. Might be ok for a single person, hardly enough to support a family. Most of those Orchestras run a deficit and are constantly on the break of bankruptcy.
I am only mentioning this because that was something I knew as a student and so did my friends.
When it came to make a choice, at the end I decided to choose music as a hobby and develop my career in another direction.
Erez
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
> katzer wrote:
>
>
> > I grew up in Israel, where there are essentially 2 Orchestras
> > that pay more or less ok and all the Clarinet sections
> > positions are full for decades to come, most folks have
> little
> > to no miss-conceptions about the prospects of an orchestral
> > career.
>
> No Erez,
> There are 10 professional orchestras in Israel, and at least
> another 5 that
> have part time jobs.
> Sarah
Post Edited (2009-04-15 05:42)
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2009-04-15 07:46
Erez,
Again. you don't know the situation in Israel. This thread is important and interesting and I wouldn't like to change the subject.
You can write to my e mail and I'll sent you the list of orcestras.
Sarah
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Author: reedwizard
Date: 2009-04-15 17:22
Tonka toy,
"The failure of the conservatory system, as it existed when I was a student, was that it prepared you for one way to obtain a job: take and win an orchestra position. I felt then, and feel more strongly now, that the schools I attended could have better educated me (not a natural entrepreneur) on how to create your own career. They might have explained that perhaps you won't win a position in an orchestra, but that, dammit, we have trained you well and here are some ways to attempt to create your own niche. Specifically, I mean information on networking for dummies, how to find available grant money for concerts or to support a chamber music group, how to effectively write a grant, how to present yourselves when you are asking business people to underwrite your projects, and myriad other things about the business of music."
Some great insight into the conservatory/university system failure to provide students with the resources to make it work for them. How I would have loved to have instruction in grant writing or publicity,etc. I heartily agree with you. We received a first class musical education and are fine musicians. We should be able to perform more frequently and should be left with more than just performance skills. Business and networking skills should be taught.
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