 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-13 09:13
Hi, all.
Long time lurker but first time poster here, with what may seem like a simple issue, but with lots of facets involved that a search didn't yield the answers to, unfortunately. (I also have a terrible tendency to be long-winded, but I shall try and temper it!)
A few days ago, I made the switch from my E11, which I've played for a couple of years and been fairly happy with in an 'it's fine, but a bit thin and generic' kind of way, to a Leblanc Esprit. I'm ridiculously happy with the Leblanc - I absolutely adored it the minute I got it in my hands. Tonally and ergonomically, it's spot on. It's brand new, so I'm still 'blowing it in' - perhaps not as diligently as I should with the 'build up from 30 minutes a day' routine, but I play in 3 outfits and I've had rehearsals this week, so I've probably had about an hour a day on it for the last couple of days. (I've taken the Buffet along with me as back up, just in case).
Background over: the simple fact is I'm having intonation issues, which is as frustrating as all heck for me as my intonation on the E11 was near perfect, and after 30 years playing I've not had an intonation issue to speak of since I was a kid. Whether it's just a question of adjustment as I get used to the new instrument, I'm not sure, but that's why I'm asking you good people. It's blowing just a tad flat in places. Not enough to be painful or even that noticeable, but enough to grate.
Set up last night was a Portnoy B m/p, Rovner dark lig, 2.5 reed. It improved noticeably after switching back to the metal lig, if this is a clue, but was still very slightly out. I also have a 5RV Lyre, which I shall try tonight, and the reed was fairly destroyed after rehearsal, so I'm thinking I need a harder one (whereas the 2.5 was fine with the Buffet, and actually, was about as hard as I could manage).
I was able to bring the pitch up fairly quickly when I did have issues, but I can't really lip up or tighten up my embouchure much more than I'm already doing. Any suggestions?
The other issue is that of squeaking. Massively frustrating; again, I've not squeaked since I was about ten and I hit three or four last night (while playing solo in concert band, so that was - embarrassing!). Mainly when going over the break, or dropping down a register. I have noticed that my hand position needs to be slightly different on the Leblanc, so perhaps I'm not covering the holes as well as I could?
I guess my questions are: Are these two issues related? Is this something that will improve as the instrument beds in? Is it just a case of 'new instrument blues' that I have to go through? Should I take it back for a setup? Is it me?
Any and all advice is gratefully received and in the meantime, I shall keep searching.
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Author: jsc
Date: 2009-03-13 09:31
Take it into the shop for possible adjustments. The other thing is that you are comparing a couple of years worth of hours to just a few days. Of course, you're going to have some issues. I bought a new horn months ago and am still getting used to it. Be patient, double check the horn and see what happens. You might even go back to the E11.
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-13 09:34
Thanks, jsc. Of course, you're right; I do need to be more patient. I just wondered if it was something obvious I was missing. I'm planning on calling the shop tomorrow to see if I can take it in over the weekend. I can't see me going back to the E11 though - the tone of the Esprit is much better suited for me.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-13 11:36
I assume a suction test of each joint shows no leaks?
If so, once assembled, going from xxx|000 to xxx|xxx, do you feel an impact on the upper joint fingers, suggesting the bridge mechanism is not perfect (which would hold open the pad at the top of the LJ?
Chris
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-13 11:48
Chris,
No, can't feel any impact and the top LJ pad seems to be closing quite nicely.
I've just tried it with the 5RV Lyre and it's noticeably better - annoyingly, because I really do like the tone I get with the Portnoy.
Just playing about now with the different pieces, I'm noticing that throat G to B is quite breathy, but throat A seems to ring clear. B is particularly bad. All improved by using the 5RV, except for the B.
Post Edited (2009-03-13 11:50)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-13 12:00
Lower big pads venting OK? Do they look particularly close to the tone hole compared to the E11?
And do they simultaneously close onto a cigarette paper feeler with a light touch rather than gorilla grip!
I don't think Leblancs have a reputation for being particularly mouthpiece fussy. Perhaps someone with more experience will chip in. I have an Opus, and is less fussy with mouthpieces than my Couesnons, Evette and Schaeffer (E13) and others.
Chris
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-13 12:09
Haven't got any papers at the moment (ex smoker, I'm trying to avoid them!), but will pick some up and test that later. As regards the pads, they look fine and not noticeably different from those on the E11, but the pad nearest the bell (the one closed by the B fingering) does seem to sit a little higher than the one closed by the C fingering when in its open state, if that's at all significant. Hope that makes sense; I'm sure there's a technical name for these pads that I don't know.
Perhaps my Portnoy just isn't suited to it. There's a noticeable flattening when I use it, which would be a real shame because the tone it produces is just lovely. I always found it too harsh on the E11, but on the Esprit it sounds rich and warm.
Post Edited (2009-03-13 13:15)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-13 15:17
"It's blowing just a tad flat in places." It would be helpful to know specifically "where" those places are on your instrument. But I do seem to recall--back to 1995--when I first played my new Concerto Bb, the long notes, especially F4 & E4 were noticalby more flat than on my R13. Later learned that this was *normal* and you had to lip them up at best you could. My E5 was a bit out of sync with the rest of the scale as was my C6. Tom Ridenour had to undercut the E to temper the tambre of the note and raise the pitch a little. The C was way too flat and had to be raised--more tone hole alteration and pad adjustments by Tom, so that it was more in tune (relatively speaking) with the B5 and the D6 notes. But after those minor adjustments--about 2hrs time--the Concerto Bb was within two cents of "dead on" from G4 all the way up to C6. The Esprit being an accoustical cousin of the Concerto, I would expect similar adjustments may have to be made. BTW, I don't think the ligature should have anything to do with the clarinets intonation other than perhaps changing the mouthpiece/reeds set up's response making the sound more flexabile and easier to control. But a direct effect--I think not.
Another thing I found necessary with my A & Bb Concerto set, was that I had to switch barrels to suit the weather. During the warmer months, it was necessary to use a shortened barrel to bring the general pitch of the instruments up to pitch. During the colder times, I used the standard length (longer) barrel to help the pitch. However, beyond the length of barrel issues, it did take some time to learn to play the Leblanc clarinet in tune as opposed to the Buffet. The are just different "animals" and you need to learn how to handle them. Use a tuner and always listen. And as far as "breaking in" your new Esprit--don't worry about it. Just go ahead a play it full time for as long as you wish. It's not like a new car engine that needs TLC the first 500 miles. The more it is played, the better it will become and the sooner you will "get to know it" tonally & intonationally. I'm glad you like your new clarinet--good luck.
From the FWIW dept.--after 13 yrs of playing my set of Concerto's, I have gone back to my old vintage (1964) Buffet R13 Bb and a newly acquired vintage R13A. Maybe it will not be a permanent change, but for now, the Buffets seem to play better for me. Maybe it's also time to get rid of my 1996 Honda Accord...................
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-13 15:22
William, thank you so much for such a helpful and insightful post. I have to rush out of the door to a gig right now - the joys of heading to the other side of London during a Friday rush-hour await me! - but I just wanted to pick up quickly on one of the points you made - about the barrel.
Out of interest, while warming up this afternoon, and before you posted, I stuck the barrel from the Buffet on the Leblanc, to see if there was any difference, and there was a marked one. It bought it into pitch almost immediately. Then I compared the lengths - just with the naked eye, mind, nothing scientific about it - and the Leblanc barrel does appear to be slightly longer than that of the Buffet. Interesting.
Unfortunately, but not entirely unexpectedly, I suppose, doing so also thinned out the tone, but still, it's interesting nonetheless. Perhaps this is an avenue to explore - and I've put the Buffet barrel in the kit bag with me for tonight, just in case!
I'll get to the rest of your points in more detail when I get home tonight, but again, thank you!
Post Edited (2009-03-13 15:25)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-03-13 20:01
I'm sorry but I have to totally disagree with something William wrote.... Please Please do "Break In" your new clarinet if you want to minimise risk of cracking and bore distortion. All clarinet makers are agreed on that.
Have a look at the Peter Eaton website for recommendations on this.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-03-14 14:42
Norman--don't be "sorry" as it is through diagreement and subsequent discussion that we all learn. All I know is (and many would say, 'not much'--lol) is that over the years, with all of the Selmer, Yamaha, Buffet and Leblanc wood clarinets that I have owned and played, I have never put any of them through any official break-in process. And further, none of those instruments has ever cracked--even in Wisconsin winters--nor have the bores distorted. One time, old Mac McGibbon of Milwaukee reamed the top joint of my R13 a bit to correct the E6 pitch, but he said that was due to the bore shrinking right at the top and was "normal". Just my experiance of 55 yrs of clarineting--however, as many manufacturers do recommend the break-in process, I will agree to disagree with you (and them) on this issue.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-03-16 14:29
William - we do have something very much in common - I bought my first clarinet in Feb 1954 so just made the 55 years. It took me over 2 years to save up to buy it so you can see why I was motivated to take great care of it.
My 1960 Leblancs are still as true in the bore as the day I bought them with no swelling and ovality of under 0.001"
This swelling you had is not "normal", common yes but almost totally preventible given well seasoned wood and good care and oiling in the early months/years.
I have reamed a good few bores myself in the last 20 years as a professional repairer so see the results of the care or otherwise that their owners have taken over this.
So I put my case not based on just my personal instruments but on the thousands that have passed through my workshop.
Perhaps a seatbelt analogy would be appropriate - I'm sure there are still many people who do not believe in wearing them and who based on the fact they haven't been maimed or killed yet see this as evidence of the futility of using them.
Now go and ask any experienced traffic cop who has attended numerous road accidents for his opinion.
Well here's to the next 55 years.
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-27 09:02
Hi, all.
I have a slight update for those of you who were kind enough to chime in and help me with this issue.
The Leblanc is blowing in beautifully and the intonation is getting better as a result. Those of you who said I needed to learn how to control it again with this specific instrument were spot on. I also took it back to the shop for some adjustments - it *was* blowing slightly flat around the throat area according to their tuner so they worked some magic and it's now much better. Not perfect, but better. The B is still slightly stuffy, but better than it was. I've ditched the Portnoy BP1 in favour of my trusty 5RV Lyre which has also helped.
However, it still tends to blow very very slightly flat overall, for some reason. Really not hugely, but to my perfect-pitch ears, enough to grate slightly. Whether this is to do with where we rehearse, I have no idea - room temperature and whatnot - but I've remedied it using a slightly unorthodox method: using the barrel from my old Buffet instead of the Leblanc-supplied one. The Buffet barrel does seem to be very slightly shorter when comparing the two with the naked eye and doesn't seem to affect the tone too much doing this but whipping it on there brings it into pitch almost immediately.
It's not an ideal situation, but until I can afford a more suitable one, it's doing the job.
And I'm massively happy with the tone of the Leblanc - it's the tone I've been looking for for years.
Thanks so much for all the advice you gave me!
Lisa
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2009-03-27 14:08
I noticed that most Portnoy mouthpieces play a little flat. I would advise using the 5RV and maybe a dark Rovner lig.
The Esprit is normally a good instrument for intonation.
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-27 14:32
Hi, Brenda.
That's really interesting. The difference between the BP1 and the 5RV is really noticeable. It's a great pity, because I love the tone and responsiveness that I get with the BP1, but I'm not willing to sacrifice tuning for the sake of it.
I do have a Rovner dark lig, but for some odd reason it flattened even further when I was using it. This was with the Portnoy, though. I've not yet tried it in combination with the 5RV, so perhaps this is the next thing to try. (I have on the Buffet, but the metal lig/5RV combo seemed to suit better on that instrument; the Rovner seemed to strangle the sound somewhat in that case.)
The current set up of the Esprit with the 5RV, metal lig and Buffet barrel is the best that I've got it, tuning wise.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2009-03-27 18:35
Try it with the 5RV and I think you'll have a good match for your Esprit.
Why are you using the Buffet barrel? Maybe I lost out on that in one of your posts.
If you prefer the metal ligature you might like a Bonade. That's the reverse lig. that a lot of people use. Too much slippage on regular ligatures.
The Rovner dark will give you a more "covered" sound. Maybe that's what you don't like. The metal lig. will give an edgier tone. Whatever works is what you use.
Forget the Portnoy mouthpiece. It's not going to work for your set up.
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Author: Tinselworm
Date: 2009-03-27 18:43
Yep, the Portnoy is already forgotten and consigned to the 'seemed like a good idea at the time' box. A pity, but never mind. One to file under: you live and learn 
I'm using the Buffet barrel because it seems to sharpen it up pitch wise just enough to get it in tune. The intonation is better now since it's been back to the shop, but it's still slightly flat overall and it's very noticeable in concert band where we're tuning to the oboe (which is correct according to her tuner). The Buffet barrel seems to be very slightly shorter than the one supplied with the Esprit so I tried it on a whim and it does do the trick. It's not ideal, but rather an interim solution until I work it out properly.
I do like the tone I get with the Rovner, but again, for some reason using it does seem to flatten the pitch slightly (again, this was with the BP1; I'll try it on the 5RV but haven't had a chance yet). I don't know why. Someone upthread suggested that while using the metal lig wouldn't sharpen the pitch there may be more room to manouver for purposes of lipping things up and it may be easier to control, which would seem to make sense.
I've never tried a Bonade, but I shall look into it. Thanks for the tip.
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