 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-03-16 09:23
Was there a trend to use thinner pads in the old days (before 1950) on the Bb clarinets than they use it now?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-16 09:48
Buffet still use thin pads on their clarinets - may even be the thinnest pads used on any clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-03-16 10:24
Hi, ...... can I ask Chris while he is within radar..... I must get round to adjusting or replacing the lower largest pads on my B12. They are working, but I think my insrument suffers from the usual slightly casual assembly in this area. Two of the pads close at the pivot side a little sooner than I would like....... maybe I will be able to "Squidge" them ( technical term) into position- maybe not. I do have a handful of 3mm pads, but when I hold them against the cups I cannot convince myself that they will go in far enough to make the seating any better than it is at present.
Would you recommend that I send for some thinner pads, or is it an optical illusion?
Glad to hear from you............ H&P.
Apologies, Noverbuff, but it's a related point (just).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-16 10:29
You should be able to shift them with a bit of heat to get them to close more at the front. When heated, close them against a thin pad iron placed on the tonehole and that should shift them enough.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-16 10:48
It's very rare that somoene here uses a pre-1950 clarinet, so I don't know really, but I don't remember the few I've seen needing especially thin pads.
One pad maker claims Yamaha uses thinner pads than other brands, especially the key cup are thinner i.e. for stepped pads, the back is thinner. They recommend a thinner model for those.
huff n' puff, what you describe, F/C and E/B pads hitting the back before the front, is common on most new clarinets. Depedning on the design of the keys/arms it might be possible to align the key cups over the tone holes for the current thickness pads. I remember sometimes even the same model (professional even) needed different thickness pads, even for the same keys. So I can't say for sure if B12 need especially thin pads, but I don't remember that it does.
BTW, one critical point for stepped pad thickness is the exact shape of the pad, specifically the shape of the step. Some pads are total of same thickness, but they might be too thick/thin depending also on size. Also depends on the thickness of the back vs. thickness of the felt.
Post Edited (2009-03-16 15:33)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-03-16 14:36
With a deep cup found on some models you really need the card to be reasonably thick to minimise the amount of adhesive needed in the cup, but equally you don't want thick spongy felt so having a selection and choosing the optimum for each key is needed.
Its best to have the pad as nearly parallel with the cup as possible and this often entails some slight realignment of the key arm.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-16 15:00
With cork pads you can make them the ideal thickness so an even amount of pad sidewall is showing all around, so if a key has a thin or thick set, you can make the pads accordingly.
With leather pads you can vary the amount of shellac used depending if you have a key with a thin or thick set.
But with stepped skin pads, the thickness of the felt is the determining factor.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-03-16 15:13
Thanks, all........ One worry that I always have when trying to move a pad is that I might burn the edge of the pad.... worse still- damage the body of the clarinet. Although it is a time waster, I would rather remove the key each time I apply heat.... always seem to get there in the end.
Is there a trick to protect the pad?
Mostly I have used the flame from a good quality small candle, but even working away from draughts, it is a bit unpredictable.
Have just bought a small meths burner that I have not yet tested- I'm hoping that it will give a smaller cleaner flame- but nevertheless, I would like to protect the pad somehow..... should I damp the pad?
I'm wondering about fixing a small piece of flameproof material/ board over the flame with say, a 1/4" hole in it that the pad cup can be held against in the hope that the heat will be concentrated towards the cup centre.
Any views very welcome................. H&P
PS..... as I write, I am wondering if the heat from a soldering iron can in some way be transmitted to the cup? Maybe if there is no solder on the tip then it may not disfigure the cup? Is that how it should be done anyway? Have only seen flames used in videos.
Apologies again to Noverbuf- (but it keeps your question at the top!)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-03-16 15:19
I use a bic lighter for the occasional pad reseat job, and a piece of stiff paper (business card) cut and placed strategically between pad and wood to act as a heat deflector shield. Never burned a pad that way.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-16 15:31
I use a large bunsen burner flame and can seat small 6mm cork pads using that without any problems.
Don't use the flame burning directly onto the back of the pad cup, but have the side of the flame glance the back of the key and that will heat the key up sufficiently and with the key still in place.
Taking the key off each time and moving the pad off the instrument will take you ages to get it right, so learn to use the flame in a way that you won't be scorching the body.
If I can do that with a large gas flame and not scorch the body joint, you shouldn't have any trouble with a small spirit burner flame.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-03-16 15:35
>>One worry that I always have when trying to move a pad is that I might burn the edge of the pad.... worse still- damage the body of the clarinet. >>
Yes, same here. I don't consider removing the key a waste of time. It's time well-spent, the best way to protect the valuable clarinet. It's also much easier to install the pad when you can hold the key in any position you like. I use a little alcohol burner. Mine's ancient, so I can't recommend a brand, but I see these for sale in places like Home Depot. The advantage to an alcohol flame is that it burns cleanly, instead of leaving black smudges the way a candle can. When installing new conventional clarinet pads, it's a good idea to prick each one a couple of times at the edge before starting the replacement job, so that when the air trapped inside the skin heats up, the pad won't swell.
I keep a "Solder-It" on hand to spot-adjust pads on the clarinet if necessary, but I'm extremely cautious about using this open flame around a wooden instrument. I make a big effort to get each pad seated right before I re-assemble so that I won't have to adjust a pad in place, but sometimes it happens. (The Solder-It, cheap at hardware stores, is basically a Bic lighter, but shaped with a pistol-grip, which makes it easier to use for spot-heating.)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-16 15:57
You just need to be careful and you won't burn anything. I have torches and I can use one of them with a VERY small flame, but I still almost always prefer to use an alcohol lamp which has a slightly bigger flame. It's all about how you hold the key to the flame.
It is possible to use a soldering torch (no flame). Votaw (instrument repair tool supplier) has a better (expensive) alternative, but you can a soldering gun with a split tip. The key should allow the electricity to transfer (shouldn't be a problem with clarinet keys). But this is IMO considerably less comfortable than a flame.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-03-16 20:12
Thanks for the answers. I found the old pads in the junk that is still around the house I thought I threw them away.
Indeed, these pads (from a late 30-s Bb PanAm I was talking about here before) have deeper backing and thinner shoulder. Yes, the key cups are really deep as well.
The MusicMedic pads I bought a plenty for my hobby overhauls all tilted on this clarinet, well 60 % of them. The rest somehow are more or less parallel with the cups, this is some kind of inconsistency. MusicMedic pads have thicker felt and shallow backing comparing to the oldie's original pads.
Where can I get bladder pads with thinner felt? I regret I discarded the idea to put Valentino synthetic pads on this clarinet. I in fact used two pads the C# and D# (on the upper section) and they seal perfectly without adjustments. :(
By the way I'm not sure I want to redo the 60% of the tilted pads at the moment. I somehow managed to make them seal and that took me awhile. I didn't want to bend the keys too much. If I only knew I had to choose the pads with appropriate felt thikness! I'm in the beginning of my learning curve. What is the downside if I leave it as it is?
I bought a split tip soldering gun for heating the cups on the clarinet. It works great, no worries about burning the body and pads. It cost me around $30 (converted from our currency). I'm not sure someone who is not planning to use it constantly (for hobby or professional work) will want to get it.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-03-17 19:14
Can anyone please tell me are Prestini pads any good and what is the difference between their PR-PN3M which is described as straight bevel, Vito style and PR-460M step bevel, Buffet style.
Is any of the above pad types made with thin felt?
Otherwise where else can I try to find pads with thin felt and thick backing?
Thanks.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-03-17 20:00
One trick I occasionally use is to glue a little extra card to the back of a pad to increase that thickness.
Often you can use the backing of a suitable diameter old pad and split it to desired thickness. Otherwise cut a small circle from appropriate size bit of card. I always hoard a supply of paper, card and felt in various thicknesses to make general repair work quicker.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-03-17 22:38
'Otherwise where else can I try to find pads with thin felt and thick backing?"
You can order to any spec you like at Music Center, if you care to import from Italy.
However for the odd occasion I need thin pads, I have no problem with their standard thin pads, which have thin felt and thin card. They just need more backing glue, carefully metered, than does thick card. The thin card means that they can also be versatile for shallower key cups.
Technicians have access to these or very similar pads through USA suppliers who don't sell to the public. However MusicMedic seems to cooperate in supplying anything if they are asked. Try asking.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-17 22:41
to Huff,
For heat, I usually use a product called 'coldheat'. It is about $20-25 and runs on 4 batteries. Get a set or rechargables and a charger when you buy it.
It is very portable, safe and will not burn pads or bodies.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-18 07:47
Music Center is a great pad maker but the problem for some people is that they are sometimes very slow, and they have a minimum for ordering. Might not be a great option for a person who only want a few pads as opposed to a stock. Worth asking them about it.
Other than one supplier who only sells to registered repairers/shops, I think Ferree's and maybe also Allied have pads in different thicknesses. I've never tried their clarinet pads though (but I'm pretty sure they are made by Music Center).
Post Edited (2009-03-18 08:20)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-03-18 11:30
I carry two different thickness of clarinet pads. "One siz fits all" approach really doesn't work when dealing with different brand of clarinets. Two seems to be an acceptable compromise. Pads are getting quite expensive, in fact, now becoming my biggest expense.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-03-19 12:05
There is one question that came to my mind a bit late.
If Buffet clarinets are so popular and apparently are sold in large quantities in the main clarinets consumer, the US why aren't thin felt pad suppliers so obvious and need to be reached in some tricky ways?
In this case also why for example MusicMedic doesn't stock these pads if they are supposed to be in demand?
What's the difference between the common pads thickness and thin Buffet style thickness after all?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-03-19 13:12
Noverbuf wrote:
> In this case also why for example MusicMedic doesn't stock
> these pads if they are supposed to be in demand?
I always found the MM pads to be on the thin side - my others (MusicCenter aka Pisoni) are at least half a mm thicker, at least the "big ones"...
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-19 14:55
I have a fairly good eye for spotting which brand is which.
From the looks (to me), Buffet uses Glotin pads, but can anyone confirm this?
Post Edited (2009-03-20 13:14)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-20 04:52
>> If Buffet clarinets are so popular and apparently are sold in large quantities in the main clarinets consumer, the US why aren't thin felt pad suppliers so obvious and need to be reached in some tricky ways? <<
That's because.... Buffet pads are not thinner compared with most brands. I just checked two Buffets, and the pads had a felt the same as what I consider average thickness. The key cups weren't thinner than most brands either. So you don't need unusually thin pads for Buffet clarinets IME.
In USA there are at least a few sources for pads in several different thicknesses. There are sources outside USA also. There is no tricky way to get them. It might not be easy for just musicians to get them if there is a minimum order. If you mean it's tricky for musicians who only want one set for example, then sure, since I'm guessing (just an intuitive guess, not necessarily accurate) that's something like 0.001% of the market (maybe less??).
>> I always found the MM pads to be on the thin side - my others (MusicCenter aka Pisoni) are at least half a mm thicker, at least the "big ones"... <<
I would say Music Medic pads are average thickness, at least compared with average thickness of clarinet pads on clarinets. It is impossible to say whether the pads from Music Center (Pisoni) are thick or thin because they simply offer any thickness.
>> From the looks (to me), Buffet uses Gloten pads, but can anyone conferm this? <<
I know Music Center makes Gore-Tex pads, and I'm pretty sure (but not completely) that they are making the Gore-Tex pads for Buffet. So maybe this is a good sign that they are also making the bladder pads for them?
How do you recognize pads from looks? If you mean the shape, then that can't recognize a brand since some companies (like Music Center) have different models with different shapes.
Maybe you can tell by colour? Another way?
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2009-03-20 12:50
>musicians who only want one set for example...that's something like 0.001% of the market ...
Quite possible.
My question was valid only in the assumption that Buffet pads are a special thin kind of pads (see the second top Chris P post). Since you say they are normal thikness then it loses any sense and your thought about availability of just thin pads (that have no relation to Buffet) to general public is quite logical.
What about the difference in the style? In a post above I asked about description of the Pisoni pad styles I found on the Votaw site:
'...the difference between their PR-PN3M which is described as straight bevel, Vito style; and PR-460M step bevel, Buffet style.'
What is that 'step bevel' and 'straight bevel'? Is it something that can be confused with thinner or thicker felt?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-20 13:02
Buffet pads have the card printed with the Buffet logo, though that doesn't mean they're made by Buffet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-03-20 13:29
"How do you recognize pads from looks? If you mean the shape, then that can't recognize a brand since some companies (like Music Center) have different models with different shapes."
Let me put it this way. I have used a lot of pads from different makers and I notice different things about the skin or blatter, and the shape and the way it feels when it hits the tone hole- some pads are a little harder/softer than others. Putting all of these together, I can pick up a clarinet and look at the pads and generally know what company made the pads (if it is a pad that I have experience with).
Having said that, it really isn't that hard considering there are only a hand-full of major pad makers in the world.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-03-21 14:24
Decades ago I considered Buffet pads as good as one could get. They really lasted a long time.
But now I wouldn't buy any pad labelled Buffet. Pads on at least some models of new Buffets have extremely thin, brittle membrane that often starts failing within a year or two. (Shame on Buffet!) No wonder guys change to cork pads! All most of them needed was high quality bladder pads.
Clarnibass, what you call normal pads may well be what some people here call thin pads.
That said, I agree that Buffet does not need extra thin pads, just what I would call normal, but certainly not those great, thick, squishy pads that were common a couple of decades ago, that some people probably still regards as normal thickness.
On the other hand, I find that Noblet clarinets tend to need extra thin-felt pads, at least for some keys, partly to get maximum venting, because certain keys cannot be re-aligned to get sufficient venting if thicker pads are used.
Post Edited (2009-03-21 14:24)
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