 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-03-15 18:25
I've been collecting some bass clarinet CDs as a suggestion of another poster and am amazed at the variety of sounds that are coming out of the horns. Some may be due to the brand of horn but I'm thinking a lot has to be do the set up and player as well. Most of these I find pleasant, at least over certain portions of the range, but there are aspects of each I also don't like.
Although some might disagree, I think the sound that I want to emulate/ achieve is like a BIG Bb clarinet and the sound should not sound saxophone-like. However, some of the most well-reknowned bass players have a very "wooden bari saxophone" sound. It is pleasing, but not what I want to do. However, I'm wondering if this is more what J.Q. Public (or people selecting bas clarinets for orchestra spots) don't have in their head as THE sound and if I want to have a bass job ever again it's one I also need to emulate/ adopt.
In the past I've played Selmers (for 30 years) but in the past 4 years I've been playing a Buffet Prestige. The mechanics/ feel are better to me and the intonation is better in my hands. In fact there are few bad notes. However, it doesn't have the GROWL of the Selmer. Am I at a disadvantage now? Luckily my local people LIKE what I'm doing/ sounding.
Anyway I'd like opinions as to what you think of the concept of bass sound and whether there is bias towards one or the other in the orchestral scene.
Eefer guy
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-03-16 08:42
I'm not sure how to judge solo bass styles, since it is more an orchestral than solo instrument. Looking at it orchestrally I think that the prevailing style and "ideal" here in Britain is for a smooth glitch-free sound that appears ro come from no fixed point and which adds a kind of halo to the general sound. So, at worst it can sound woolly, and at best it sounds ethereal and mysterious.
This is in contrast to the East Europe style which is more explicit and reedy, and seems to serve a different tonal purpose, namely in adding texture rather than adding bloom. The German style seems to be between these two.
There is a risk in the British style that it can become too bland. There is a risk with bass playing in general that the pursuit of good tone across all ranges can appear a higher priority than musical expression.
I have one solo CD by Bok. It seems to have been recorded in an anechoic chamber which does not do it any favours.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-16 23:03
Tone on any instrument is so individual but especially the clarinet and bass clarinet. I agree with you that there is a wide variety of tone qualities on the bass clarinet today. I've heard some recordings that I absolutely despise and than there are those that I find very pleasant. It's pretty much like any instrument. The bass clarinet should never sound like a saxophone, period. That usually comes from playing a soft reed and or using a very opened mouthpiece. Some players try to get such a dark sound that it is dead and dull. In between there is a whole range of decent bass clarinet tone qualities. I think some "solo" players sacrifice tone quality for flexibility, especially so they can play in the extreme high octave. You know, the octave above what we refer to as "high" C. Personally I can't stand the sound up there and don't know why there's even a reason to write that high when you have five octave from low C to the "high" C already, but I'm not a composer or "solo" player. I play in an orchestra and I'm perfectly happy never having to go higher then a high written G though sometimes I have to. I look for a warm, mellow tone, big but not ridiculous, full but not like a tuba and dark but not dull. It's a beautiful instrument but not every one plays it that way ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-17 00:49
Having heard Ed live and on recordings with the Baltimore Symphony, I can attest to the excellent sound he achieves on bass clarinet. Mission accomplished!
As for solo players who (to me at least) don't sound very good, I won't mention Henri Bok's name as Ed was considerate enough not to (and besides, Larry Bocaner thinks Bok sounds fine!).
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif) It's all good --- what a dull world it would be without some variety.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-03-17 11:33
Yes, I was worried about having that same sort of wooden saxophone sound that I do not like and was hoping that was not considered THE IDEAL. It's not my ideal either! I want to sound like a BIG AND LOW clarinet. As a great grand student of the oboist Tabuteau I know how much influence he had in creating an American oboe sound that most emulate you can see how generations of players are changed by the vision of a single individual. Even there I find I'm going for a sound more like the French, a bit lighter than most Americans. Holliger is more my ideal of a pretty oboe sound.
Ed I couldn't agree more about the stratospheric notes. If you want to play them get an Eefer! That's what Eefers do. There are a couple of solo pieces that manage to use the judicious use of a few of these notes that I don't object to entirely and it has forced me to learn some of those fingerings. Right now I'm working on alto clarinet pieces that is otherwise beautiful but right in the middle there is a high D (not the first altissimo D, the second) for no apparent reason musically. Was thinking about using the piece publicly and just play the D an octave down. Both the audience and I will be happier!
Eefer guy
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-03-17 13:39
Fine commentary, Tks ! Nearly all of my bass cl playing has been in concert [comm.] bands, where I found that a "mellow", somewhat "dark" tone, at moderate volume [I was the only B C then] seemed to blend well and "fill out" the chordal structures to the likings of most conductors and myself. In this music I was seldom above the staff, but in the intro to Der Rosencavalier, a [first altis.] Eb made me work on it ! Just AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-18 05:43
I don't agree with a lot of things in Ed's post.
As far as sounding like a saxophone.... there is one player who use (AFAIK) a very open mouthpiece with hard reeds. He sometimes sounds a bit like a trumpet at higher notes. His sound is definitely unusual but also what he played. The concept of his music and sound match each other. This is just one example.
As far as playing high.... Maybe you confused five octaves with four? I assume by high C you meant altisimo C. That's four octaves from the low C. Or did you actually mean notes more than five octaves above low C i.e. C8?
Assuming you meant altisimo C (C7) then there is a lot of music where players go around that high or higher and regardless of whether someone likes that or not, it makes a lot of sense in that case to play that high, because of the ideas in the music.
By the way, any of that above has nothing to do with how I personally play or sounds.
For the original post, how best to sound (regardless if for orchestra or anything else)...? Well the best way IMO is to "simply" realize what is the best sound to use in each situation, depending on what you are playing. It's not impossible that you might need a different setup for what you want, but maybe not.
But what you wrote sounds like going based on what the jobs require, without trying to realize yourself whgat is best to use, and why. This sounds like a very big compromise of music in exchange for.... maybe a job? I definitely don't support a compromise like this.
How about getting the best sound you think for specific music, then if someone disagree, it's worth hearing them and trying to understand their reasons. But if you realize they are completely wrong and are clueless, maybe you don't want to play there, as opposed to change the sound for the job. IME this can happen with both professionals and amateurs.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-18 13:19
I've just conducted a little public experiment in bass clarinet tonal variation. Having recently obtained a nice Uebel German-system bass clarinet, which has a much smaller bore and a very different tone color than the more familar Boehm-system bass clarinet, I played an orchestra concert on the F. Arthur Uebel, using it in the second suite of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet ballet music. I did this partly as a challenge to myself (I'm still fumbling around with the fingering differences of the Oehler system, not to mention the very different response and feel of the German instrument), but mostly because I felt that the 'compact and penetrating' sound of this horn was more appropriate to the music than the more 'hollow and mellow' tone of the Boehm instrument. (Pardon these verbal descriptions, words are always inadequate for describing sounds!).
I can't comment on the results until such time (if ever) as I hear the concert recording; but despite some ftechnical problems I was having, I believe that my choice of instrument was a good one for meeting what I perceive to be the composer's intent. Certainly I could have played the same music on my usual Boehm-system bass clarinet with no struggle at all, but I don't think the performance would have been as effective. Who knows? Sometimes we just need to experiment. Even when staying within one genre of music (e.g. the classical symphonic repertoire) I'm not convinced that "one sound fits all". That said, I fully agree with (my interpretation of) Ed's posting that one should first develop a good 'core' sound which can then (and only then) be modified as needed to suit the music.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-03-18 13:55
There is of course the aspect of "what Maestro wants". Recently I played Tchaikovsky's Manfred in the same programme as Gerard's Concerto for Orchestra (an avant guard 1960s work). I found that everything I was doing, bar the big solo in the first movement of the Manfred, was meeting with Maestro's approval. My conception of that solo is that Manfred is thinking regretfully of something and is a broken man. He needs to sound weak, feeble, depressive, far from fit and well. I think my approach was valid and I was willing to go with that. Maestro wanted it to sound bigger (not louder) and generally smooth and noble (what a surprise!).
As it happens I decided not to argue the point at all. By donning a Grand Concert reed in replacement of the Alexander Superial on which the whole of the rest of the concert was played (i.e. all but that first movement) I got the sound he was asking for.
That way I get to play next time. And that, very often, is the long and the short of it...........
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-18 14:11
In my case Maestro was a string player by training and either had no idea, or didn't care, what sort of sound I should try to achieve! I bet she was more bummed by the notes I missed on the Oehler-system bass clarinet than by the 'more appropriate' tone quality I obtained with it..........
Nonetheless, it was an unpaid community group and I have little doubt I shall be 'hired' to play with them again.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-18 17:52
To clarinbass, Of course you are correct that sometimes one has to sound as the music calls for, I didn't mean to imply that one should necessarily have the same tone quality for all styles. As far as the player that some times sounds like a trumpet in the high register, I think that speaks for itself. No matter what register or style of music a person plays in it is simply my opinion that a bass clarinet should always sound like a bass clarinet, not a saxophone, not a trumpet not a anything. I was referring to the highest possible register, that octave plus above what one would consider the highest C fingered on the Bb clarinet, if that's C7 so be it. It is my feeling that having four octaves is enough to be expressive but that's just my opinion. I just don't like the sound of the instrument above that 5th C on the bass clarinet. You'll have to excuse me if you don't agree, and I don't have a problem with that, I just don't like it. I certainly respect you're not agreeing with my taste for playing up that high. That doesn't mean anything other than it's my opinion. I'm not trying to impose that on anyone else.
I have some articles on my new web page that pertain to the bass clarinet, perhaps you would like to read them. I never expect everyone to agree with everything I say or believe but it would be nice if everyone did. ESP (Peabody)
My new web page- http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-03-18 19:41
Part of the reason I've asked this is the last couple times I've played on the Buffet Prestige the director commented "I could use more bass". Whether this is the less beefy sound or that he truly wanted more volume. When I heard the recordings of these events I sort of thought the same thing: the notes were in tune and played expressively but the growl wasn't there. Maybe we need to also give a little more VOLUME with the Prestige to compensate for the lack of growl. The Bay mouthpiece tends to give a bit more heft to the sound and I do like that for certain uses. However, the ability to play VERY SOFTLY is also a virtue that the Buffet with the Lawrie Bloom mouthpiece has. However, the volume I had on the solos in "Nutcracker Suite" and "The Swan of Tuonela" was about right. I did play these at a bit greater volume than I might've with my old Selmer and Bay mouthpieces. I do think because of the sound quality difference we might need this sort of objective appraisal (from conductor or colleagues).
A lot of the ultra high range on the bass seems to be more of a gimmic than done for a musical reason IMHO.
clarnibass I think you are exceptional in that most of yuor gigs arre improvisational whereas the rest of us are trying to fit in a niche. It might seem like selling out but i also LIKE my sound now but don't want it to be a stigma either.
Eefer guy
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-19 01:35
Tone on any instrument is very individual. As I stated in a previous post about loving your tone that applies to any instrument. Of course tone is only one quality you need to be satisfied with. For me it's the first thing I hear when I play so it's the most important but by far not the only. When I play my bass I need to respond to the conductors requests instantly. That is I must be able to play ppp and soon after play fff and everything in between. That's what you have to be able to do with the instrument and equipment you use. I don't ever remember saying to a conductor that I can't play louder or I can't play softer. Once you can accomplish that you have to play musically at the same time and depending on the solo passage you might even have to change the color of your tone slightly but you should always love your sound. ESP (Peabody)
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-19 08:28
>> clarnibass I think you are exceptional in that most of yuor gigs arre improvisational whereas the rest of us are trying to fit in a niche. It might seem like selling out but i also LIKE my sound now but don't want it to be a stigma either. <<
Actually that is not exactly true. Not the part about my "gigs", it is more correct to say a lot of my concerts have a lot of improvisation. But also not the part about "selling" and "niche". They are completely seperate things. You can "fit in a niche" (i.e. orchestra, etc.) but still search for WHY to play something as opposed to following a "standard", which maybe by coincidence is good...? If you happen to play chess maybe you've heard of 'hope chess'? Same really. Of course you don't have to but isn't that 'search' a big part of playing?
In your example of "need more bass", you are the one who played it and listened to it, so best that you dig more into this and realize what is the best thing to do, no...? Also can consult with others in the group for more ideas.
From your original post it sounds like you know pretty much what general type of sound you want to have. So if you are only asking what type of tone people look for in orchestras, etc. then I can only say that I hope they are looking for the type of tone that comes from a player with good reasons to choose the tone they chose, as opposed to any specific type of tone.
>> As far as the player that some times sounds like a trumpet in the high register, I think that speaks for itself. No matter what register or style of music a person plays in it is simply my opinion that a bass clarinet should always sound like a bass clarinet, not a saxophone, not a trumpet not a anything. <<
You wrote: "The bass clarinet should never sound like a saxophone, period." OK so you didn't say trumpet but I think it's the same thing. It sounds pretty strong. What is more interesting is your reason for this opinion?
To give an exaggerated example to show the point, I saw a very good play that was a comedy about beauty pageants. The host, a male roll, was played by a female actress, and all the contestants, females, were played by male actors. Do you think males should only play males, and females should only play females? I don't agree with that and for the same reason I don't agree about the bass clarinet.
The player I mentions doesn't just sound like a trumpet. Sometimes, some of the notes, especialy higher ones, sound a bit like trumpet. The use of this can make sense in the same way as the actors in that play.
>> I just don't like the sound of the instrument above that 5th C on the bass clarinet. You'll have to excuse me if you don't agree, and I don't have a problem with that, I just don't like it. <<
I understand, but are you willing to challenge yourself? I can send you some samples of bass clarinet players playing a lot of very high notes and maybe you will like it. Worst case you don't like it but still got a chance to hear something you probably haven't heard before.
>> I don't ever remember saying to a conductor that I can't play louder or I can't play softer. <<
This is not surprising because people generally don't tend to play in concerts where they need to play things they don't want or can't play.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-19 17:24
clarinebass, I don't want to make an issue of Ebcl original post.
You said, "This is not surprising because people generally don't tend to play in concerts where they need to play things they don't want or can't play."
I have to play whatever is programed to play, I don't choose the repertoire for the BSO. I don't have to like it to play it, it's my job to play my best all the time so that statement holds no weight. We play standard as well as new music, often commissions. If it's programed I have to play, I'm the bass clarinetist of the BSO. I just don't like the sound of the bass clarinet up above the "high" C, that's all. Sue me, I don't like it. Fortunately for me, I've never had an orchestra part above that high C, though I can play up to the G. And by the way, I've heard recordings and live performances of some very good and well known professional bass clarinet players that have played in that register and although I respect there ability to play up there, I just don't like the sound of that register. Is that so difficult to comprehend? I'm and orchestral player, and even though I've done a little solo and chamber music on the bass, that's just not my thing. I'm allowed not to like something. ESP (Peabody/BSO) http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-03-19 21:04
I'm listening to a CD by the "Chicago Clarinet Trio" as I write this.
http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Clarinet-Performs-Mihalovici-Sandroff/dp/B000009Q3H/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237496318&sr=1-2
If anyone has heard more beautiful bass clarinet playing than John Bruce Yeh's on this recording, I'd love to know about it!
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-19 22:16
Nothing to add but to thank LarryBocaner for the recommendation. I found the CD on iTunes and having listened to the excerpts I clicked "buy".
Beautiful
Chris
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-03-20 00:44
Interesting as I picked out Bruce Yeh's sound as "one to emulate" too. It is closer to what I'm doing now on the Buffet.
eefer guy
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-03-20 06:26
Ed, I said "....need to play things they don't want or can't play". In your case that would be that generally what your orchestra plays is music that the orchestra can play, no? You are a part of the orchestra and can play your part.
But you didn't say if you are interested in hearing some music of bass clarinetists that maybe you haven't heard. I know I'd be happy to hear something I don't know, and I'll also be happy to email you some things. You have nothing to lose 
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-03-20 15:49
clarnibass said "generally what your orchestra plays is music that the orchestra can play, no?"
No, our orchestra can play just about anything. It's not a matter of what we can play because we do all types of music including commissions so we never know what that will turn out. Our conductor-director does not look to see if we can play it because the assumption is "of course" we can. It's more what our audience will tolerate. As any major orchestra today, we can play it if we have to, like it or not.
As far as e-mailing me things, I already said I've heard many live performances and I own several CDs of bass clarinet performers so it's not a matter of hearing it. I like and appreciate many of them and I don't like some others, just like anything else in life. I even like some music when I don't like the sound of the player. I think this has gone about as far as I'm going to let it go. If you feel you have to continue this then e-mail me so we don't continue to dominate this post just because I don't like the sound of highest possible register, above the 5th C, on the bass clarinet. I don't even like it when I play it, which I do sometimes just to do it. I'm not going to look at this again, I have e-mail. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-20 17:35
Speaking of John Bruce Yeh, his CD of solo works for bass and soprano clarinets, "Dialogues With My Shadow", is pretty incredible too. Nearly made me want to quit playing, he sets the bar so high!
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