 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-24 15:17
Has anybody ever successfully polished or buffed out the green in an older mouthpiece? I have read about it in Brand's Repair Manual but he didn't speak much toi results. Where does one find the polish, a paint store? Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-10-24 16:43
Mark,
Soak the mouthpiece in amonia. It will neutralize the sulpher then you can buff or polish. I've had success with a product called "Gel-Gloss". It was made for polishing fiberglass, counter tops, etc. You may also try Brasso since it already contains amonia.
We had a post not to long ago about this topic, you may want to look it up.
J. Butler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-24 17:30
here is the info John referred to:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=27251&t=27143
thanks again. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dave
Date: 2000-10-24 20:00
I've had much success with vinegar on hard rubber pieces. The thing to always remember is not to touch the table or the rails to much even if you are trying to hand buff your piece. Let the piece sit in the full concentrate of Vinegar for a good long time maybe even a day. This works on heave calcium build up, I think the green stuff your'e refering to is that. I don't like the sound of using ammonia, but whatever works.
Dave
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-24 21:24
Dave, respectfully, vinegar has no effect on the GREEN color that I (& others) have talked about here. THIS green color is a chemical reaction within the hard rubber compound of the mouthpiece.
On a regular basis, I clean mouthpieces with 100% Vinegar for several hours and then follow up with 100% lemon juice (from extract) via RealLemon (tm).
Now, that does a very NICE job of cleaning sludge, calcium- type buildup, & whatnot --- but it has *ZERO* effect on the "green color" I mentioned. Also, these vinegar and/or lemon liquids have no effect that I can see on the Table, Tip or Side Rails, etc. Too much soaking and you'll give the adhesive applied to the Cork (on the Tenon) a run for its money, but nothing else that I can detect.
OH, I also stay away from use of WARM or HOT liquids. A higher temperature liquid is sure to bring on the "green/brown whammies" (e.g. the chemical reaction that can turn the mouthpiece's to that "dread color").
No doubt, GREEN is a 5 letter word!
Regards (and THANKS) to all for taking the time to help me!
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-10-24 22:13
An interesting chemical question, why brown and green ?? No doubt its a sulfur-containing "melange" prob with lead, copper or other metals [added in the "vulcanization" process to provide the sulfur] , somewhat oxidized by age and sun-exposure. As such, the ammonia should tend to "solubilize" the deposits and the buffing take it off, with little or no damage to the hard rubber table, rails or lip. The ammonia is very strong compared to the 5% acetic acid in the vinegar, so a bit of caution. I have found that heavy rubbing will remove enough color to satisfy my "taste". Will research farther, how about you L O H ?? Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-24 23:10
Don, are you referring to rubbing with Brasso or Gel-Gloss that have been mentioned? It sounds like nobody has brought a mouthpiece back to (near new) blackness, etc.
When I did a search of the Klarinet Archives, I ran across some info where Kaspar & others may have used Muriatic Acid to "burn off" so much of the green epidermis and then, supposedly, buffed the mouthpiece back to a "black beauty". Or so, the story went.
I am think about buying a quart or so of Muriatic Acid @ the hardware in my neighborhood, but frankly, the thought of using the stuff scares me to death. It really is dangerous stuff.
Thanks, keep it coming..
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-10-25 00:58
No, I was really thinking of a plain, slightly abrasive, cloth, such as old pillowcase etc, haven't tried a "polish" as J B suggested, but its worth a careful trial. YES, be very careful of muriatic acid [commercial grade of hydrochloric acid] one of the strongest "mineral" acids [sulfuric and nitric also]. I'd start with a well diluted [with water] acid and work up gently, gloves and a face shield recommended. Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler
Date: 2000-10-25 02:15
Mark,
I do buff mouthpieces with my buffing machine. They come out almost as black as new. I do not use a muslin buff however. I use a chamois buff with a very light abrasive compound (key buff from Ferree's). It will not "cut" the hard rubber and will leave a very good finish. I only suggested the Gel-Gloss because most people do not own buffing equipment. As far as muriatic acid goes, I used to use it all the time diluted with enough water. It does a great job of getting the slime out. However there have been far better products come out that are more friendly to mankind and the enviornment. I use the "Slime-Away" from Allied. It is very user friendly and easy to neutralize.
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b.
Date: 2000-10-25 04:33
When you mention buffing, and other things along those lines, John, I think of what some of us refer to as the good ol' days. You know, the days past - the way we'd like things to have been rather than how they actually were. In reality I don't think things have really changed much. I know the use of muriatic acid is frowned on these days. Last month I bought a gallon of it. Local contractor outlet stores sell it for curing concrete. I understand it's a very good driveway cleaner. If it'll do all that I presume that's why it works so well for cruddy mouthpieces too.
As I recall from days long ago, when I first entered the work force as a high school kid (the 'gofer') in a repair shop; muriatic (hydrochloric) acid was common mouthpiece wash. Kept a little rectangular glass dish half full of the stuff just for that purpose. Dip 'em a little bit, rinse 'em off and buff 'til they look shiny again. Add a little water once in a while, (I know, I know... but it was already diluted). Did a pretty good job - disinfect, clean, shine. As best as I can remember, no one had any second thoughts... I mean, no one ever drank the stuff or deliberately splashed it on themselves. Frivolous lawsuits were almost unheard of. I don't remember anything about OSHA during those times or maybe OSHA just didn't know about us. The boss was pretty smart about things like that. That 'shop' was far away from the street, in a garage behind a two story house and not easily recognizable as such by a casual passerby. Buffing dust was blown out into the yard and the 55-gallon drum of dunking cyanide was by the side door - for proper ventilation I presume. At least during the summer months the door could be left open. When someone had a brass horn to lacquer that was done in the back yard to avoid breathing the overspray. All buffing operations ceased then and no one was allowed to smoke in the immediate area 'til the spraying was done. It was an interesting time back then. It's an interesting time now.
ron b.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2000-10-25 04:37
My projects, like de-greening my old Pedler and un-dying an old rosewood clarinet have been put on the back burner for now as I haven't had much time of my own lately. Even had to play my metal Elkhart at the last two rehearsals ( much to the professors chagrin) due to my "better" horns being in need of tlc. But i'm following this topic and when I get some time, I'm going to experiment with all thats been suggested here and I'll post my findings. I did try soaking my 2RV in ammonia and though its very clean, it still looks like army surplus. As for the Pedler I have to find a sollution that won't effect the posts and springs. I foresee mass quantities of Q-tips here.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-10-25 11:23
My way of dealing with greenishness on an old mouthpiece is to ignore it. The greenish color doesn't bother me (but then again, I'm playing on old instruments, most of which look their age, with some cosmetic damage -- so the mpcs fit the general picture...). I do use mouthwash on all my mpcs and reeds once a week for cleaning, and that seems to prevent the white calcification from forming.
My stained glass studio used some fairly atrocious chemicals, including hydrochloric acid. I was fanatical about using protective gear and properly disposing of hazardous waste. No harm done, I think. Still, given the choice, I don't want that stuff in my house. I prefer to stick to things like mouthwash and vinegar for anything I'm going to put in my mouth later. I don't want to worry about whether I did an adequate job of rinsing away a dangerous product. It's easier not to use it in the first place.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2000-10-25 15:47
For anyone who has read this thread and can't resist the temptation to buy some muriatic/hydrochloric acid at the hardware store -
(1) Try again to resist the tempation - this is dangerous acid.
(2) If No. 1 doesn't work, and you decide to dilute the acid, remember the rule from high school chemistry:
Do NOT add water to acid; add the acid to water! (Unless you want hot acid to splatter in your face.)
(3) Also, use safety equipment - rubber gloves, lab goggles, etc.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-10-25 16:26
THANK YOU, Don P, I sure forgot to mention the ONLY SAFE way to dilute acids [in general] ABSOLUTLY for concentrated HCl, H2SO4 [sulfuric] HNO3 [nitric] {for our non-chemists} is to pour the acid SLOWLY, with stirring, into the water, with protective gear, watching for any severe heating!!! The same is true with the concentrated alkali [bases], NaOH [sodium hydroxide - caustic soda] is most common. I did work in labs and in pilot plants, using these "baddies" and took my turns as safety man! Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-25 18:03
A night of Bleach (common old Bleach, in this case Clorox) and a Tale to tell.
Over all it went very well.
... EXCEPT for my 2nd container. My 1st container was a Plastic 16 oz. cup, no problem. My 2nd container was a (thick) Paper coffee cup from Barnes & Noble. I assumed it would hold the Bleach just fine as it had held (very, very( strong Starbucks at one time! (ha,ha) WRONG --- the bleach ate right thruough it.
Some of the mouthpieces did just wonderfully. Restored as new. I tood an old pillow case (as Don suggested) and hand polished 3 old Selmer HS* mouthpieces. Look beautiful, almost like new.
Had an old, old Noblet that came out nicely, although just the slightest hint of a what I call a "ligature tan". The Noblet had the slkightest amount of what I would call a whitish hazing and it polished off very nicely.
Had one Selmer HS** and an Buffet Chedeville that glazed up a bit. I was scared at first that the whitish compund wouldn't come off --- I was wrong. It did polish off, although it took more elbow grease.
Almost all the "shields" had their guilds taken off --- just the coloring. I was able to bring them back right away. There was no damage to rubber where the sheilds were.
I'll report back with anything else I notice later.
JOHN --- WHERE CAN THE BRASSO OR THE OTHER POLISHING COMNPUND BE PURCHASED???
Thanks all.
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-25 19:11
OK, most hardware stores was, indeed correct on the Gel-Gloss. In fact, all the large U.S. chains have it. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Susan L.
Date: 2000-10-25 19:53
I also have a Selmer mouthpiece with a "ligature tan". I tried a little Brasso on it and no luck. I tried some ammonia on it next. It didn't change anything. I guess I have to soak it a little longer. About how long should one soak a mouthpiece in ammonia?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler
Date: 2000-10-26 00:03
Susan,
In common household ammonia it can take awhile. Of course ammonia fortis is to strong and has to be diluted. Have patience, it will work. It sounds like Mark's bleach may be a good solution. I'll have to try it on a couple of old mouthpieces to see how it goes.
J. Butler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2000-10-26 04:41
I;d like to thank Don P. for the reminder as I had forgotten this about acid/water. I'd also like to caution folks about mixing bleach and ammonia when they are experimenting.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-26 04:51
Well I have cleaned/polished 3 mouthpieces with ammonia & gel-gloss. Works well, the gel-gloss gives a nice shine, does a nice job.
But, I have done 11 mouthpieces with Bleach and that old Pillow case. Most of these mouthpieces had 2 things in common --- green color & old. They now look black & shiny.
The Bleach wins out, IMO. Don's idea for a pillow case (or sheet material, all the same) was a real winner. It shines VERY fast in comparison to other cloths I have tried. (diaper, hand towel, tshirt).
....my wife is upset becasue she says she didn't have any extra pillow cases for me to use & that we'd better not have company soon! I'm going to a department store tomorrow to buy a new one so I can give hers BACK to her! :-) mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2000-10-26 14:21
Old pillowcases and sheets, perfect for buffing mouthpieces, are available for a song at most thrift shops. I'm going to get one and work on a couple of old mouthpieces. Thanks to all in this thread for the good practical and chemical info.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-26 19:43
Wondering why that material seems to be so good for buffing?
My wife says that (generally) most pillow cases & sheets are made of a poly-cotton blend of materials. (Then she started talking about the weave and I said thats more than I want to know). :-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Susan L.
Date: 2000-10-27 00:31
Mouthpiece Update:
I soaked my rubber Selmer mouthpiece in a 50% solution of household bleach/ water overnight. No more green! I polished it first with a cloth then I got out my variable speed Dremel tool with the buffing wheel. That really did the trick. It looks like new.
Thanks for all the tips.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill Fogle
Date: 2000-10-27 19:19
If you soak a mouthpiece in bleach or Brasso, how can you be sure you got the inside of it clean?
--(From a guy who once tried black shoe polish on a 5RV).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Anji
Date: 2000-10-27 21:21
Doesn't somebody market shoe polish as a treatment for mouthpiece tables?
Same sort of idea behind charging $1.75 for a tube of Chapstick (for cork grease).
And here I thought green mouthpieces resulted from intense concentration and impassioned playing!
Kidding aside, can the rubber withstand repeated exposure to this 50/50 bleach water solution? This is a very appealing and frugal method (wish I had thought of it first).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2000-10-27 21:39
Anji wrote:
>
> Doesn't somebody market shoe polish as a treatment for
> mouthpiece tables?
>
> Same sort of idea behind charging $1.75 for a tube of Chapstick
> (for cork grease).
>
> And here I thought green mouthpieces resulted from intense
> concentration and impassioned playing!
>
> Kidding aside, can the rubber withstand repeated exposure to
> this 50/50 bleach water solution? This is a very appealing and
> frugal method (wish I had thought of it first.
Actually it is extended exposure to light that turns them brown or green. So if you store it in a case when not playing, you should not have it turn green/brown again.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-28 19:33
Bill FWIW --- I don't think *ANYTHING* could live in the Mouthpiece *AFTER* its bleaching treatment .... BUT
After my 100% (Clorox) Bleach solution ... I rinsed in warm soapy water. Rinsed all the soap out.
( .. if you wanted ... you could insert a short soaking in Vinegar here, too)
Then I soaked in lemon juice for 3-4 hours. Not exact, I was keeping track.
(I like Lemon Juice for the smell I get. VERY PLEASANT. I have also used RealLemon Brand LIME JUICE with no discernible difference from their Lemon Juice)
For that amount that Brasso and Gel-Gloss cost ... I wouldn't spend the money.
I will go to a mixed solution on the bleach soaking, too .... 100% was just too powerful ... and even when I added water to raise level, I was probably at 80%.
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-10-28 21:22
Before you expose your good mp to strong bleach for an extended time, let me suggest that sodium hypochlorite is an oxidizing agent [unless my chem know-how has slipped!] and may do more harm than good re: color, etc, since, as Dee has posted, sunlite-catalyzed oxidation seems to be the real culprit. The Clorox might also "weaken" the sulfurized [crosslinking] of the rubber! Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-29 03:48
Don, the Bleach may do something bad to the mouthpieces ... but it sure hasn't yet.
I have two of these "Clorox bleached" mouthpieces at the office. have played or the past several days. I am not sure that the Bleach wouldn't be a weaker solution than Ammonia., which is pretty tough stuff on its own.
These two Selmer C-85's are no longer green, definitely no worse for the wear, and have had all the calcium-whitish deposits removed, which were "baked on" to the left and right of the side rails. They play as well as they ever did for me. There is no hint of bleach although I can still smell their last "lemon basting", which is quite pleasant.
Good luck to everybody -- go slow & be careful. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-29 04:33
I also meant to say that 100% bleach is **definitely overkill**. I think that I will use 10-15% as a starting point in future & only increase where I have tough chemical buildup on mouthpiece and/or where the green isn't coming out. Bleach Makers seems to recommend (something like) 3/4 cup Bleach to 1 gallon Water as a general cleaning solution for cleaning & disinfecting. Sorry to leave this last part out. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Susan L.
Date: 2000-10-29 23:21
Mark,
I agree that a weaker bleach solution is all that is probably needed. I did the 50% and I think that was too strong or maybe I left the mouthpiece in too long. Next time I will start with a 10% solution.
P.S. My mouthpiece seems to be doing just fine after its soaking.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-29 23:46
I have a beatup Vandoren in the 'cooker" now, and I will report about it. Vandys feel differently. To me, it seems like the Selmer HS* had more rubber content (they seem weigh more). I have heard someone say here or on the List that Vandoren's are made of a mixture of rubber & plastic, but never have seen any proof or other confirmation of that. I will be anxious to see if the Vandorenturns out differently. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2000-10-30 18:44
I squeezed a lemon wedge over my Morgan 10RM on Sunday morning with no results, then went back to my coffee and paper. I disagree with Dee (sorry, Dee!) about the sunlight. My mps go green when I *wash them* in anything warmer than cold water. I've had so many new mpcs. turn green this way. It doesn't really bother me, but I guess I do prefer them "black." Funny, my newest mpcs. seem to be the green ones. All the truly vintage stuff is still quite black.
--Bill.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-10-30 19:08
REPORT: The beatup Vandoren looks shiny new now, too. No ill effects of the (diluted with water) Clorox Bleach "solution".
I have now tried 10%, 20%, 50%, 80% & 100% mixtures.
The 100% left overnight had the whitish oxidation, which easily rubbed off. As I stated, it is probably overkill. Ditto to the 80%, as the 50% works fine and seems to get the job done **as quickly**.
The 10% was WEAK ! In a 4-5 hour test dunk, it did very little to a Selmer HS*. The 25% was just SLOWER.
I think Susan L. hit it --- keep it in the "middle of the road". 50% it is for me.
Susan L. --- I tried the Dremel. It was OK, but not nearly as fast. I have also tried several rubber & plastic polishes now, too. OK, but just another chemical to worry about. DON BERGER has the overall winner with the Pillow Case. (of which I now have my very own, promising NOT to touch my wife's clean laundry anymore )(unless Don has any more (new) similar ideas!!!)
Anybody interested in hearing about Guild Crayons??? If so, email me privately.
My thanks again to everybody !
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jodi
Date: 2000-10-31 03:37
I have to agree to the warm water turning mouthpieces green. Every time I wash my mouthpiece it turns another shade of green.
I am very skeptical of trying the bleach solution, but everyone seems to be doing so well with it, I may just give it a whirl. I am happy to hear that there have been no ill effects!!
Jodi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2000-10-31 23:46
I think you're both right. Warm water does bring out the brown (chlorine reaction maybe)as its happened to me. But I also have a rubber clarinet that sat in a store window (in the case) that is brown on top and black on bottom. You can tell exactl where the lig was too, kinda like that first shower after a long day at the beach.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mark weinstein
Date: 2000-11-01 21:58
I think we would all agree ... cool H2O is the order of the day. No warm solutions spoken here. mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
