 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kev182
Date: 2009-02-22 05:55
Has anyone noticed a decline or change in mouthpiece quality recently (past year or so) from vandoren?
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-02-22 06:23
yes, i've had many m13 and m15's i've had to send back in the last 2-3 years. something seems to have changed for the worse, quaility control wise.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kev182
Date: 2009-02-22 07:07
Paul, yeah... especially with the M13/M15s.... do they seem much more resistant in the past year or so?
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Author: Kentlarinet
Date: 2009-02-22 07:31
I've recently been trying new m15 mouthpieces and I've found that pretty much all of them are much more resistant compared to my older one. Could it be that mouthpieces become less resistant the more it is played just like clarinets? Or something about the manufacturing process has changed over the years. But I notice that these mouthpieces don't feel the same way as they used to.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-02-22 14:40
You have to ask yourself, though, whether your older one might have been any less resistant than others from its manufacturing lot. Mouthpieces are not and never have been completely consistent even within the same model. That's why you try several and pick the one that feels most comfortable.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-02-22 14:50
Two things to look at:
Tip/side rail width - The M30s were always marketed as more resistant and that's what they did to them.
Baffle concavity: This is a big part of the B40 and helps make it less bright than other Vandorens. See if the newest models that you audition have this dip in the baffle.
As for consistancy that I have seen, I could not be happier with the playability and consistancy from one mouthpiece to the other even within one particular model. I currently bounce back and forth between two B40s that I purchased in the last three months and I can barely tell them apart.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2009-02-22 15:00
For M13, I have found considerable asymmetry. Differing side rail widths, different geometry at the rail-tip intersections Usually, One out of three has been of acceptable manufacture. Most facings are ok. All this before acoustical tests. But, I have few very good ones. Try, many, before buy.
richard smith
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-02-22 15:17
This might come as a shock, but on a new M13 Lyre I bought just a few weeks ago, the facing is perfect. There is NO asymmetry. IIRC, the facing was something like 36, 22, 10, 4, 104. Actually I don't remember the tip measurement entirely...
This is the only Vandoren mouthpiece I have ever measured that was perfect. In the batch I got from which to select my mouthpiece, I did not measure each of them, so I don't know for sure if all of them were perfect.
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Author: richard1952
Date: 2009-02-22 17:27
Does a wider side and tip rail make a mouthpiece more resistant? What factors do make a mouthpiece resistant?
richardseaman@cox.net
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-02-22 17:48
Dear Richard 1952,
Those factors as stated above and the other usual suspects such as longer lay and wider tip opening.
Of course "resistance" is a relative term. I was pointing out that if you are looking across a vast expanse of Vandoren M15s (same beak type, same series 13....or NON series 13) you can make some spot assessments based on the ones that may have slightly wider side rails, or a slightly wider tip rail, etc.
Once you've chosen an appropriate reed combination for you and the proper placement of your embouchure on the mouthpiece, I would be as bold as to say the term "resistance" does not even exist........for the most part.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2009-02-23 20:04
I purchased and M30 about six months ago and it plays beautifully and sounds great. I think I tried another M30 at the same time and there was very little difference.
Leonard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-02-25 16:31
The answer to the first question...
No..I use a new M15 with no trouble whatsoever...once one adjusts reeds for the mouthpiece I have had nothing but great comments on how well I sound. I also believe that no mouthpiece is the total answer..one has to practice and have all aspects of the instrument in top shape and peak working order. A variety of reeds to choose from from day to day will help..
I fail to see any problems here..the Vandoren M15 and M30 facings are excellent and if one has a chance to try a few and pick one all the better. As to tip rails being out one would have to take it to a tech and have it measured or better yet send it to a mouthpiece facing expert. If one thinks Vandoren makes asymetrical facings then you are wrong...all Vandoren facings are symetrical.
I also think alot of players just want to blame their equipment.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-25 16:47
Contrary to popular opinion (as the saying goes), tip or side rail widths have very little effect on the resistance of a mouthpiece. The biggest single factor is the curvature of the facing, especially in the center region between tip and the 'break' (transition to the flat table). The more curved or 'humped' the center portion of the facing, the more resistant the mouthpiece. An excessively 'humped' facing is the main cause of stuffiness in many mouthpieces, including (for example) Vandorens and Pomaricos. A secondary resistance factor is the depth of the baffle near the tip -- the deeper the baffle the more resistant the mouthpiece, but with the (generally-considered to be) positive side effects of a darker sound and less tendency to squeak.
This opinion is based on years of experience refacing hundreds of mouthpieces. Your mileage may vary, etc.
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Author: richard1952
Date: 2009-02-25 18:52
Does a wide or narrow tip and side rail have any affect on how a mouthpiece plays?
I have compared a Larry Combs LC-1, Vandoren B-46, B-45, 5-RV, Selmer HS* and they are slightly different. The Combs has very narrow side rails and a very old B-46 a very narrow tip rail, while the rest have similar width side and tip rails.I own a vintage Stowell Wells Schneider-Chicago mouthpiece that has a rather wide tip rail compared to those listed.
So I guess my question is,"is a mouthpiece designed with a specific width to the rails or are those widths random after the table and facing are completed?"
richardseaman@cox.net
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-25 19:40
Comparing different mouthpieces and trying to infer the effects of rail width on their playing characteristics is scientifically invalid, because there are too many other variables at work. Even if you took two nominally 'identical' mouthpieces (e.g. a pair of LC-1s made the same day), you'd find significant differences in every dimension because of manufacturing tolerances. If you want to experiment a bit at low risk, take one of your mouthpieces that has wide rails, and using either a fine flat file or a small square of sandpaper, thin the rails! Wash the mouthpiece (nobody likes ingesting hard rubber powder, yuck) and play-test. I'll bet that you find little or no difference between thick and thin rails on that particular mouthpiece. I do this sort of experiment all the time, because when I reface a mouthpiece the initial operations make the rails thicker, so one of the final operations is to thin the rails back down -- but I do this mainly for cosmetic reasons (thin rails just look better, I think) and because it makes it visually easier to center the reed on the mouthpiece. Of course I'm play-testing the mouthpiece between these various stages of rework, so I know from that experience that thinning the rails makes essentially no difference in playability.
It is more work (and adds a certain amount of damage risk) to thin the rails, which is why generally the cheaper (and more highly mass-produced) the mouthpiece, the thicker the rails will be. Look at an el-cheapo molded plastic mouthpiece, for instance, and the rails will probably be wide enough to land a 747 on. On the other hand, you'll probably find elegant-looking thin rails on a handcrafted Greg Smith, Clark Fobes, Walter Grabner or Roger Garrett mouthpiece (to cite some examples I'm familiar with, there are of course others).
All that aside, there's an element of personal preference -- some mouthpiece makers just prefer rails of a certain width, and you'd have to poll them to find out why.
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-02-26 13:56
Hi David,
I want to know what is the way of measuring the facing length, I mean the point from the tangent, or by an imaginative 0.0000 gauge. Thanks !
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-26 14:19
Lam, I don't use gauges at all (unusual for a refacer, I know) -- I believe gauges are imprecise and their results are misleading. My oddball technique is to polish the facings to a mirror finish and then sight them optically (that is, look at them with my uncalibrated eyeballs). With your eyes it is very easy to detect the exact point at which the curved rails merge into the flat table. Once this is done, one can mark the spot with a piece of tape alongside the rail, and measure the length to the tip using a standard scale/ruler or calipers.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2009-02-26 14:53
I must have missed something...
A "perfectly" consistent mouthpiece brand is a waste of time and resources. Minor variances in the table, rails, etc... are negated by the vast amount of variances in reeds from a single box (and lets not even get into embouchures,ect).
Vandoren is well within acceptable limits. An M15 sounds/feels like another M15. One may respond better with the 2nd reed in the box and another with the 4th...
I suppose someone using the same synthetic reed but changing their mouthpieces daily would need such a consistent mouthpiece brand.
Post Edited (2009-02-26 14:57)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-26 15:40
You make a good point, sinkdraiN, about the variability in reeds being just as big a factor as the variability in mouthpieces. But still, a bad mouthpiece will play badly with ANY reed, and a really good mouthpiece will significantly improve the percentage of 'good' reeds. Furthermore, a player shopping for a particular sort of mouthpiece (be that in terms of sound, response, tip opening, facing length, or whatever combination of these parameters) should expect two or more mouthpieces of a certain model from any decent manufacturer, to be quite similar in performance.
I have no gripe with Vandoren; for mass-produced products theirs are exceptionally good, in my humble opinion -- but even Vandoren can produce mouthpieces with slight defects in the facing that create problems for the player (e.g. chirps).
I periodically go through an exercise with my refaced mouthpieces in which I play them all, one after another, with a pretty wide variety of reeds, and 'grade' each combination of mouthpiece and reed. At the end I total up the scores, and there's usually one or two mouthpieces that are clearly better than the rest, on the basis of having a greater percentages of reeds that work well with them. Should you be fortunate enough to acquire such a 'reed-friendly' mouthpiece you'll find that you're no longer cursing the reed manufacturers nor spending half your time going through boxes of reeds trying to find the mythical "one or two good ones". Instead you'll open a box and be pleased to find over half of them to be suitable for concert use, with perhaps only minor adjustments needed (assuming, as always, proper break-in).
I hope this clears things up a bit.
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Author: NHClarinetLady23
Date: 2009-02-26 16:22
I bought an M-15 a couple years ago and about a year later I made some changes in my embouchure and had to get a new mouthpiece so I went back to the M-15s and found that the few I received were indeed more resistant.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-02-26 20:07
<< Instead you'll open a box and be pleased to find over half of them to be suitable for concert use, with perhaps only minor adjustments needed (assuming, as always, proper break-in).>>
And, assuming the player is using the optimal strength for the mouthpiece in the first place. I've had many students complain about their mouthpieces and/or the reed brand they were using (including the "one good reed in a box" complaint) when, it turned out, they were trying to play on reeds that were just too strong or weak to play well. With the right strength reed, most of the reasons for the complaints vanished and we could get down to work on what they really needed.
Karl
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