 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: chorusgirl
Date: 2009-02-11 19:19
Hi -
I've been reading through a lot of these threads, and find them fascinating! I am curious about a phrase that I've read a couple of times - what does it mean to say that a clarinet is "blown out"? I wasn't aware that instruments could wear out in this way - of course, I understand that keys, springs, pads, etc. can wear out, but they can all be replaced, can't they? Or can't they? Thanks!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-02-11 19:27
"Blown out" refers to the clarinet having significantly changed (in a negative way) over time and is no longer acceptable for professional use.
Most common causes allegedly could be attributed to the bore and/or barrel changing dimensions, the tone holes being worn, and a change in the resistance or resulting sound. There may be a combination of one or all of the above.
You will probably find as many people that ascribe to the theory as those who dismiss it.
...GBK
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2009-02-11 19:51
I've always thought that blown out means a person has an attack of G.A.S and needs to justify buying a new instrument. That or a person thinks buying a new instrument will make them "sound" better.
I'm not saying it is impossible for an instrument to change in a negative way after heavy use but it is not a given with every instrument. I've heard of or known players that have played the same set of R13's for many, many years.
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2009-02-11 19:52
I think it means a salesperson is trying to get you to buy the "latest and greatest."
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-02-11 20:21
If the upper joint at the top changes dimension from not being completely dry, you could very well end up with a poorly blowing instrument.
Another factor could be if the tone hole is an insert and there is leaking around it the instrument would feel stuffy yet no pad leak.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-02-11 21:38
Well in 2004 Eddy Vanoosthuyse had a master class and directed a clarinet choir for a whole weekend here in Reykjavik Iceland. He played both Weber's Grand Duo and Schumann's Fantasiestücke. At that time he was using Leblanc OpusII Bb clarinet and an older Buffet A clarinet. Because he was sponsored by Leblanc he couldn't play on a new Buffet A clarinet. When he played Schumann he did not hit the high F in the last movement once or twice and my teacher said it was because it was so old instrument and being blown out.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-02-11 22:19
There are a lot of ideas here.
First, the idea of "blow out" is mostly suggested by some top players, who happen to be the ones who can afford to change instruments every 4 or 5 years and whose every day job performance depends on their having the best equipment they can find. Most amateurs and occasional players can't, unless they have some other independent source of wealth, justify new instruments on that kind of schedule.
The idea that has been handed down by these players is that the wood deteriorates acoustically over a period of years (4 or 5 is the general consensus I've always heard among "blow out" adherents), resulting in a less resonant sound. This is not something that instrument sales people are promoting, because the main proponents of the idea are more or less immune to sales pitch - in many cases they've had a hand in developing the instruments they play. Not incidentally, many of them get new instruments either at no charge or at cost, so discarding and replacing instruments every 5 years isn't the same burden for them as it is for most of us.
To the extent that things do deteriorate physically (never mind the wood's cell alignment or the pores' clogging up), they often can be fixed. Tone holes can be repaired, spring tensions adjusted, pads replaced, surfaces cleaned and (another controversy) re-oiled, etc., so that it can become a question of how much a player is willing to spend fixing an old clarinet rather than just getting a new instrument. So, all of these mechanical considerations tend to get all mixed in with "blown out" wood and many players' natural wanderlust for something different from what they already have.
In the end it comes down to the player's needs, his or her perception of the instrument (s)he owns, and how much (s)he is willing to spend to have new equipment.
I rarely if ever hear about blow-out from bassoonists or oboists, who, not coincidentally, spend a great deal more money on their instruments than we do on ours.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-02-11 23:08
Most bassonist would give anything to get a 1930's Heckel usually much in preference to a new one and many are handed from one generation of professional to the next (and next) so it doesn't seem they blow out!!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-02-12 03:19
I think most professionals that think their instruments are blown out feel they've lost their focus due to bore changes over the years. I don't believe all instruments blow out but I'm sure some do. A new barrel and or bell can bring an instrument back to life. It depends on how much you play it and how you care for your instrument. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-12 06:55
"A new barrel and or bell can bring an instrument back to life."
- And quite often, so can a good repair tech that really knows what they are doing.
Although, in some situations a great change in the bore can cause poor response or pitch, I think that most of the "blown out" instruments can be restored by good techs without any change of the barrel, or bell, or change in the bore. Step 1. Clean it. Step 2. Change the pads. Step 3. Be sure the pads actually seal. Step 4. Be sure that the keys are not too low to cause poor pitch and tone.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-12 07:02
Norman Smale:
"Most bassonist would give anything to get a 1930's Heckel usually much in preference to a new one and many are handed from one generation of professional to the next (and next) so it doesn't seem they blow out!!"
And to think bassoons are made from a far less stable wood than clarinets and oboes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-02-12 07:30
It's one thing to say that a clarinet which is played six or more hours per day (with one day a week off) deteriorates over ten years (c. 20,000 hours of playing). But this does not mean that an instrument which is used less intensively is prone to that. Most amateurs would be unable to sustain an argument that they could blow an instrument out over twenty years. Some instruments warp and some crack. This is verifiable. Otherwise, a feeling that the wood has lost its inner life etc. is inherently unlikely to be a good explanation with the possible exception of very heavily used instruments.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-02-12 11:49
> And to think bassoons are made from a far less stable wood than clarinets and oboes.
Maybe those old bassoons have 'blown-in'...
:-)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-02-12 12:12
Sometimes it is used as an excuse to buy a new instrument! ;-)
For those who find that the bore has changed, Guy Chadash will put an insert in the top joint and rebore it to correct specs.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-02-12 12:19
"And quite often, so can a good repair tech that really knows what they are doing."
--------------------------------------------------------------
And all repair techs aren't even close to being equally skilled - or even have access to high tech equipment.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-02-12 13:48
>>I don't believe all instruments blow out but I'm sure some do.>>
Over the years, I've seen a few antique clarinets for sale, nearly all of them 19th century boxwood, not grenadilla, that I'd call classic blown-out cases. The wood had deteriorated so much that the *shape* of the bore had changed to an oval, obvious to the naked eye. Usually these badly warped clarinets had major cracking as well.
Maybe we tend to think blow-out is a myth because the concept originated at a time when a significant number of clarinets were manufactured of wood that's more vulnerable than grenadilla to damp and temperature fluctuations -- and also more exposed to these fluctuations than modern clarinets in homes with gas and electricity.
I did see a grenadilla clarinet at the D.C. Big Flea in January that made me wonder if it was a "Katrina clarinet," salvaged from a flooded home. The tattered pads looked as if they'd swollen until they burst, then shrank as they dried. Reeds in the case were black on both sides with dried mold, far worse than the typical grunge on old student reeds. Frozen keys indicated rusted screws. The case itself had swollen (popping the plastic cover loose from the wood) and then shrunk. The case lining had been washed, but it was rotted and splitting, and it still smelled of mold. I wouldn't even mess around with trying to repair a clarinet that had spent enough time soaking wet for this much damage to accumulate, because even good, properly-aged grenadilla will change dimensions if it's left to soak and then dried with all the metal posts and keys still attached.
Some rubber clarinets also get blown out because flea market dealers lay them on tables in hot summer sunlight. The rubber can warp in only a few hours. Sometimes the metal sleeve disconnects from the bore of the upper joint. I don't think it's a good use of a repair tech's time to try to salvage one of these wrecks, since the rubber clarinets are student-grade to begin with.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-02-12 15:20
If you feel your horn is blown out, regardless if it really is, its going to affect you mentally. So much of performing is a mental game, and if buying a new horn removes that mental inhibition, then you should do it.
It's all in your head. Look at some players (Bird, Goodam) who didn't much care for equipment, but always sounded, at the core, like "themselves."
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-02-12 15:49
But are these cases of "blow out," by which people normally mean deterioration caused by playing the instrument, or is the deterioration you're describing due to mishandling not related to playing them? I imagine wood left lying around in non-ideal conditions will eventually (maybe sooner) warp, distort or crack. Isn't that a different problem from the one chorusgirl asked about?
Karl
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-02-12 22:42
I think clarinet bores can change over time, providing a different feel than once was (sometimes for the worse).
The real causes, if not the bore actually changing shape seem to be one or more of the following:
1) Player is having problems and wants to buy a new horn to "fix" them
2) Player has a different concept of sound than when the "blown out" horn was purchased.
3) Player just needs to overhaul the "blown out" clarinet by a reputable tech to have it feel right again. (tone holes are dirty, needs oil, other things that would make it feel and sound not quite right).
4) Someone tells player "did you know horns can get blown out after a few years?
5) Player just wants a new toy.
6) Barrel has changed dimensions (relatively cheap fix)
While I'm sure it does happen that the bore of the clarinet changes in an irreversible way, it usually has to do with items 1-6.
NOTE: If the bore has not changed, item NUMBER TWO is the only time that I would think of buying a new horn.
Any other thoughts?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-02-13 01:31
At a certain level, you're probably right. But in my experience, most of the time for most players it's almost always #4 in your list, occasionally #5 (wanderlust). The "someone" in #4 is usually a major symphony player (or someone who studied with one) who truly believes in "blow out" and who plays hours every day and is under intense pressure to sound beyond good all the time. When more casual players hear or read that Marcellus or Gigliotti replaced their instruments on a regular basis because they felt an instrument is blown out after 5 years (of very heavy, constant use), then it becomes a "known fact" that blow-out happens. Whether or not something was really going tangibly wrong with Marcellus's clarinets, most of us don't put those demands on our instruments (or mouthpieces).
It's a little late in this thread to be asking this, but (to those reading this thread east of the Atlantic) does "blow out" have widespread currency among European clarinetists? I've really only heard American clarinetists talk about it, but that may be because they've constituted most of my exposure.
Karl
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2009-02-13 03:08
Please see this thread for more discussion on this topic, including the bore replacement of my 1967 R-13: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=256861&t=255462
This is not a mystical occurrence; the change in dimension of the bore at the top of the upper joint can be easily measured in comparison to original spec. My personal experience was a dramatic improvement in the instrument.
Also, while it's true that bassoons are not regularly replaced by their owners, most pro oboist/english hornists that I have worked with do replace their instruments with some regularity.
Alan Brady
AB
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-13 03:25
As for bassonists wanting older bassoons more than newer ones, it is important that the bocal is metal and the top joint is always lined with metal or plastic or rubber. So, essentially, the most vital part of the instrument has a bore that doesn't change much.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-02-13 12:32
larry naylor has done some good and explaining writings about this phenomena.
www.naylors-woodwins-repair.com
as it seems, nothing that isnt revereble in most cases.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-02-13 19:29
I've not heard the word "blown out" ever used in the UK and I don't think that concept is commonly accepted among professional players.
I believe Brymer only ever had two sets of 1010 clarinets in his career, a pre-war set of London-Paris on which he made his first recording with Beecham and the RPO of the Mozart, followed by a post-war set with Acton vent mechanism.
Bernard Walton used his Reform Boehms for a large part of his career.
Ray Carpenter in Bournmouth Symphony used a pair of B&H 926's for about 16 years then switched to 1010's (for orchestral "volume" reasons) for another 16 until he retired, those same 1010 instruments are still being played in a major London Orchestra.
Yes some players do change more frequently but I suspect more for a "change" of outlook or in some cases they just wreck their equipment through use (and some degree of neglect !)
Leon Goosens still owned and played the Loree oboe he was given at about 14 when he was about 80 (yes he did probably have others as well which professional wouldn't, but he found no problem with the Loree.)
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