 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: stebinus2
Date: 2009-02-08 21:40
Is it possible to swedge a solid rod key such as the right pinky E/B and do it in the middle of the rod? I want to take up a very little lateral slack that it has between the posts but the ends of course would not work. Also it's from a cheaper type of clarinet (hard rubber B&H Edgware) so is this kind of fix possible on the keys they have?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-08 22:01
Have you tightened up the anchoring screws on the pillar bases? If that hasn't worked, try giving the pillars a gentle tap to bend them inwards.
There is a Ferree's tool that can be used to swage solid key barrels - it's the same as the sax crook tenon/flute tenon expander but has scalloped rollers to swage solid bar. It's H59 in their catalogue (on page 26 in this) http://www.ferreestools.com/Pg.55-112.pdf.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-02-08 22:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2009-02-09 13:37
Chris' suggestions sound good to me. Although I've never done this I have experience with a "similar" process used in the steel company where I was employed referred to as rotary forging. If the part was mine I'd: remove the rod and with an appropriate small ball peen hammer and anvil rotate the rod while tapping it lightly with the hammer at mid-length. Check for length increase and repeat as necessary. Good results require very small degrees of rotation and patience and attention to maintain straightness. Eventually the rod will lengthen as needed. Either the ball or flat end of the hammer might be required.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stebinus2
Date: 2009-02-09 14:05
Very interesting. I wonder if my peen hammer is small enough. Chris I have tightened the screws as far as they will go. As for tapping the posts I am reluctant to do this because of possibly wrecking threads where the hold down screws go, one of which i have already repaired. The tool you mention looks good but quite expensive. What about removing the post and trying to bend it a bit with respect to the base?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-02-09 14:27
You can counter-sink the screw holes into the posts. Feree's has counter-sinking tools. This is a very safe way to get rid of play in those types of situations.
Chris Hill
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-02-09 22:43
The Edgware model has parallel pin shaped pivot screws not the tapered pins used on quality instruments so I don't think countersinking the screws would help.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arlee
Date: 2009-02-10 01:16
A simple and fairly quick-fix way to handle this situation, Stebinus2, is to tamp a few tiny lead shavings into the rod end. Old tire weights are a good resourse. This may require a couple of trys but if you proceed cautiously it will eventually tighten things up for you.
- Arlee -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stebinus2
Date: 2009-02-10 14:19
Thanks everyone. Skygardener, loved the video! Now I understand all those lonely evenings. Arlee could you give me some more details on how to get those shavings in there especially how to avoid getting them in the pivot hole. Do you press them in or hammer or what? I am still very tempted to take my ball peen hammer to the rod like Bob suggested. Sounds a lot like some car repairs I've done in the past. But that teflon tape deal will probably be the winner. I think I'll take my date out to Sizzler and then rent Out of Africa and go back to my place. What do you think, guys?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arlee
Date: 2009-02-10 20:11
This is a "quick-fix" on instruments we don't want to go to the time/expense of a complete re-build of the key. A rebuild requires silver soldering an extension to the end(s) and re-fitting. In your situation I don't think you want to go that far - it's time-comsuming and expensive if your local tech does it for you.
Also, and I should emphasize this... I wouldn't hammer anything, Stebinus2. Hammering, and swedging, distorts metal and if you go too far it's a major chore to get it back where it should be. Instead, put some tiny pieces of lead from lead solder, tire weight, fishing sinker - whatever - then you put the little pieces of lead into the pivot end of the rod; into the end hole. Tamp them in with the pivot, a small nail - whatever - until there's enough lead jammed in there to prevent the key from drifting side to side.
You may have to put in a new pad if the present one has moved too much to seat correctly.
- Arlee -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-02-10 22:44
Just a note of caution. I have only seen a few Edgewares, but on the ones I have seen the keys were made of potmetal. Very, very soft metal. Becareful of swedging or banging it around.
Also I don't think you can silver solder. The heat required to silver solder would melt the key.
Chris P., isn't this the case?
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class Clarinet Mouthpieces
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-11 01:02
Yes, Walter is correct. These keys are very soft and cannot be silver soldered.
For the same reason, I would avoid the idea of using a hammer. These keys break rather easily.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stebinus2
Date: 2009-02-11 07:19
Lead bits sound doable. What's the consensus on the teflon thing? The guy (Ridenour?) said it's a permanent solid fix. What about that?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-11 07:22
Edgwares wouldn't have had mazak keys - that was only used on the cheaper B&H clarinets (wooden Regent and B&H "75") from the '50s and discontinued in the '60s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-11 09:15
ChrisP "Edgwares wouldn't have had mazak keys - that was only used on the cheaper B&H clarinets (wooden Regent and B&H "75") from the '50s and discontinued in the '60s."
Interesting, Americans generally seem to think that Edgwares have unsolderable cheap keys. Once I had a job on one and the clarinet came to me with a severely bent key. Trying to bend it back, it broke (not at the solder point). All the people at the shop insisted that it can't be silver soldered so I had to buy an Edgware on ebay just for the replacement key.
You're telling me I could have soldered that thing???
Oops! ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
Belated apology to the person with that clarinet (who paid a higher price than normal for that job).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-11 09:26
I have seen some B&H clarinets with a mixture of mazak and nickel silver keys (more nickel silver keys than mazak ones), so maybe B&H were using up the remaining stock of mazak parts on the lower end instruments.
B&H's mazak keys all had a part number (a series of numbers in a row seperated by hyphens) on the underside that was raised, and the base metal is grey like zinc or lead instead of pale yellow. Nickel silver keys were drop forged and had a number stamped into the metal, usually four numbers arranged like this:
XX
XX
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-11 16:17
Are the numbers raised or sunken into the metal?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-02-11 21:06
I have two Edgwares waiting for attention (one needs it much more than the other...) and they have quite different keys
The one on the left has serial 224xxx and has no metal ring on the bottom of the bell. It does not have any numbers at all on the keywork that I can see. It plays, and I am impressed with how it sounds and feels even in its state of disrepair
The one on the right has serial 182xxx. It does have a ring on the bottom of the bell (did I read somewhere that this means it was meant for USA market?). It does have numbers stamped (sunken) on the underside of the keywork. It does not play at all, yet.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-02-11 23:17
I think you can be confident they are both nickel silver keys, I have seen many examples with both stamped in numbers and no numbers. I have only ever come across mazac keys bearing raised numbers.. B&H new these would easily break and so had to make it easy to identify the key for replacement. In some early 50's advertising they even tried to sell this easy replaceabilty as a virtue !!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-12 06:58
The keywork pictured on the left is the later style keywork (this one has the Reginald Kell side Eb/Bb key, though they later went back to using the standard golf club-shaped key). The smaller pad cup on the lower joint rings was added to help vent the lower register C, but it can be a pain if repadding with leather pads since the pad cup may not always line up with the tonehole.
The earlier keywork is pictured on the right and also has a shorter C#/G# touch with symmetrical leaf-shaped touch and two trill guides.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-13 07:55
Your keys should be made from nickel silver. Also look for any plating wear through to base metal as well to be sure - nickel silver shows through as pale yellow whereas mazak is grey.
You can also see from the one pictured on the right it looks like the ring key foot/linkage has been broken off and then silver soldered back on (the nickel plating has changed colour with the heat) which can't be done on mazak keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-14 07:44
I realize I never answered the question about the teflon.
I have been doing it for a few yeas and I have never had any problems. When you put it in, you must really pack it hard so it doesn't move. It is certainly as good a technique as ripping the threads out of the post so the screw goes deeper.
Like any repair technique, there are situations where it is not appropriate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-14 08:08
"It is certainly as good a technique as ripping the threads out of the post so the screw goes deeper."
I take it you really mean 'countersinking' there - 'ripping' sounds like accidental or non-intentional damage!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-14 08:35
Yes, Chris, I do mean countersinking, but I think 'ripping' sounds funnier.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-02-14 13:02
For some keys, which have cylindrical pivot screws, those holes go very deep. They may need a lot of Teflon, which may then be somewhat springy.
BTW:
1. A test for Mazak key metal.... Cut a very small sliver off in an inconspicuous place. Place it on a heat-proof surface and heat it. If it gets to red hot in a darkened room without melting, it is not Mazak.
2. I am sure I have met Mazak keys without numbers stamped on them. I don't think they were all stamped.
3. I am sure I have worked on Edgwares that have Mazak keys. Regent was definitely not the only model with these. I think the use of these keys was somewhat random, but perhaps these random ones with Mazak did not reach some countries much.... i.e. get-rid-of-the- crap-to-the-antipodes syndrome.
4. If you put chunk after chunk of Teflon compressed down that cylindrical hole, then find you have too much, it may be difficult to remove it. A drill may just spin one chunk against the next.
5. I have used normal (narrow-plier-type) swedging tools to extend such keys say .5 mm but they were not Mazak. a tidy result needs care with alignment, and preferably tools of at least 2 widths.
6. Some suppliers sell little plastic washers for filling these gaps.
7. I suppose another option is to (soft) solder (eg 95/5 tin/silver) for good appearance) a little extra "thickness' to the flat on the post.
8. You may be able to build up the length of the key barrel with soft solder.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-02-14 13:31
Removing an extra chunk of teflon is as easy as taking a thin needle spring and picking it out- 20 seconds at most. If you want to go back and remove all the teflon you may be in for a 2 minute job on each hole.
I have used tin/silver solder in these holes with a lot of success. I think the teflon is good for up to 4 pieces in each hole. For any more than that, the hole should be filled in.
Post Edited (2009-02-14 13:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
