 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2009-01-28 22:01
According to his Wikipedia article he has been described as "Great Master of the Clarinet".
He was quoted as calling "Stranger on the Shore" "my old-age pension".
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-28 23:09
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> And Wikipedia is reliable ?
In this instance they are correct...GBK
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-01-29 08:34
Aw, come on guys, give the guy a break. He may be a bit cheesy but he wouldn't still be going if a lot of people didn't enjoy what he does (according to his website performing in Southampton on his birthday) and, in the UK, he has to be responsible for attracting a lot of people to the clarinet (possibly more than anyone else) who then went on to other kinds of playing. In any case, I just couldn't resist a little run through Stranger on the Shore in tribute as I warmed up for my orchestral rehearsal last night. Aria is also not a bad tune.
Vanessa.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-29 12:21
He hits a very sharp note in Aria.
One of his albums, Evergreen, was made from green vinyl.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 12:27
Of course he's a great master of the clarinet! Just as Kenny G is the great master of the jazz saxophone (sorry y'all, I just had to bring up my favorite pet peeve again). ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Gotta run out to the elevator now ---- they're playing a medley of Acker and Kenny giant hit favorites................................
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-29 13:05
"Gotta run out to the elevator now ---- they're playing a medley of Acker and Kenny giant hit favorites................................"
Are you sure about using the plural in the last word there?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-29 13:50
Aria got to no. 5 in the UK charts. Stranger got to no. 1. That's a plural.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-29 14:14
As I've written before -
I personally like Acker Bilk. He plays music which appeals to the masses and brings enjoyment to millions of people.
Obviously a dark mellow clarinet sound is not imperative to success in the music business. He doesn't have one. So what?
If you have never heard Acker with his jazz band, watch and listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW9ZF3jMx8s
BTW - The first British recording (and British musician) with a #1 single in the US, was not the Beatles, but Mr. Acker Bilk on May 26, 1962
...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 14:41
I say we put Woody Allen and Mr. Acker Bilk in a room together, let them play for a few minutes, and see who comes out afterwards.........
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-01-29 14:51
With all due respect, even at 80 I think Acker could probably beat Woody to a pulp any time!
Vanessa.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-01-29 15:33
Well I and my fellow clarinet teacher have always used his playing and this is a good example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7jZeXvpyZQ
of how you should NOT play the clarinet. If I want to introduce my students to jazz clarinet playing then I would let them hear Artie Shaw playing his concerto for clarinet and band.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-29 15:39
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Well I and my fellow clarinet teacher have always used his
> playing and this is a good example
> of how you should NOT play the clarinet.
Unless you want to be #1 on the charts ... guess it depends on what a teacher is trying to teach ...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-29 15:51
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Well I and my fellow clarinet teacher have always used his
> playing and this is a good example
> of how you should NOT play the clarinet
The reality is that "Stranger on the Shore" sells tickets and brings people of all ages to the concert.
The Nielsen Concerto doesn't.
... GBK (who has made more money in his career playing the "Chicken Dance" than the Mozart Concerto)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 16:42
The Nielsen is a pretty extreme counter-example, Glenn --- there are plenty of clarinet players (myself included) who don't like listening to the Nielsen. Heck, for that matter, I don't care for the Mozart either -- but that's another topic.
As always, it comes down to the age-old conflict between Art and Money. Should we play what's "good", or what sells? Darned if I know. I cleverly avoided the issue by going into engineering as a career rather than music.
And like GBK, I've made a lot more money playing "Celebrate" and the "Macarena" than anything classical. If it matters.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2009-01-29 17:11
GBK, do you have a website or anything? I'm curious to know more about your playing and others on here.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-29 17:45
Johnny Galaga wrote:
> GBK, do you have a website or anything? I'm curious to know
> more about your playing and others on here.
Click on my name to find a website. I've also sent you an email ...GBK
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-01-29 18:42
This stuff always cracks me up - the Kenny G bashing - or in this case the Acker Bilk bashing. Whether or not it's the kind of stuff you listen to for enjoyment yourself, you have to respect these guys - they have made millions of people feel something because of the music they play. Isn't that what we all aspire to do? Personally, I don't listen to Acker or Kenny for enjoyment myself, but when I gig, I am always ready with Stranger on the Shore and Songbird, among others. And I respect them for what they have done with their unpopular instruments in their chosen genre. I'm pretty sure those guys sleep pretty well at night, knowing they have successfully reached their target audience, while being ridiculed by the snobby elite (we "educated" musicians).
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 18:59
I'm not part of any "snobby elite", Marty --- I've played far more "popular" music (and gotten paid a lot more for it) than any of that elitist stuff --- but that doesn't mean we should idolize the big-money-makers or aspire to play the way they do or promote the way they sound, just because they've gotten filthy rich playing down to the nearly-nonexistent taste of the vast ignorant musical public. (There I go, sounding like a snobby elitist! And jealous of their wealth, too -- I admit it.). But somebody has got to insist on standards of quality in what we play and how we sound; and the general public should be educated to recognize and appreciate good quality in their music, and maybe even pay for it a little!
I for one disagree with the "McDonalds's hamburger" approach to evaluating musical achievement, namely, if it sells, it must be good.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-29 19:21
And here we go, round and round ...
Is someone "bad" because they're popular?
Or popular because they're "bad"?
What's so bad about being popular?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 19:24
Neither, Mark! Yo Yo Ma is popular, and good. Woody Allen's clarinet playing is popular, and bad. Stan Getz's sax playing was popular, and he had a great sound. Kenny G's sax playing is popular, and he sounds like a nasty head cold.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 21:15
Comparing Acker Bilk's clarinet playing to Woody Allen's is like pitting the Pittsburgh Steelers against the Little Sisters of the Poor!
Disclaimer: My daughter and I chose Stranger on the Shore for our dance at her wedding reception. Marriage only lasted 18 months -- naturally I blame Bilk, that bastard!
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-30 00:30
Iceland clarinet says: ''how you should NOT play the clarinet. If I want to introduce my students to jazz clarinet playing then I would let them hear Artie Shaw playing his concerto for clarinet and band''
I'm a little baffled by your statement, but I assume that, as far as jazz is concerned, Shaw is preferred to Bilk.
What is it about Acker Bilk's playing that particularly riles you I wonder? Stranger on the Shore is far removed from jazz so why would you suggest to students that this style of playing is not the way to play jazz, when, clearly, it is no such thing anyway? Why is Artie Shaw your preferred player, and have you listened to any jazz players of an earlier vintage?
If you want to introduce your students to jazz (do you play this genre?) I would strongly suggest that you check out the early players from New Orleans...........I'm like a broken record on this subject. If you want to know who the originators of jazz actually are then do a search of this forum for a list of notable players.
Neither Acker Bilk nor Artie Shaw would be the ideal introduction to jazz in any event. There recordings going back as far as 1917, so I'd suggest that you commence your audio tutorials with a dose of ODJB, followed by all of those good players originating from New Orleans.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-30 04:01
Before anybody knocks Acker Bilk for not living up to classical ideals, they should consider this:
Acker Bilk doesn't play Mozart or Hindemith with schmaltzy vibrato.
Acker Bilk doesn't swing or add extra glisses to the Copland Concerto.
Acker Bilk doesn't play the Allegro Appassionato movement of the first Brahms Sonata like it's some kind of Viennese waltz.
Acker Bilk doesn't ignore Stravinsky's metronome markings.
It takes "legit" players to commit those kinds of atrocities. Acker Bilk knows better than to pull stuff like that.
And, lest I forget, Acker Bilk's interpretation of Stranger on the Shore is *completely* true to its composer's intentions.
But now a word from our sponsor...
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-30 07:35
You have to feel sorry for Acker. Not only do "classical" players knock his sound, but jazz players revile him for playing balads when he "should" be playing only jazz. The fact that he may be the reason many current players were inspired to dabble with both jazz and classical clarinet is glossed over. He dared to be different and made it big, and he is what he is.
That said, he could never seriously be put up as a good example of fine jazz or classical playing, and I doubt very much that he would disagree (though I might be wrong about the jazz; some people rate him on that).
To reinforce ned's point, I could listen all day to Larry Shields playing jazz clarinet, and it is fruitless to pit Bilk against Shields as though it were a contest.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-01-30 10:37
Not that it will necessarily sway this discussion either way, but here is a link to an interesting article about Acker.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/23/interview-acker-bilk-clarinetist
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-30 10:57
"But somebody has got to insist on standards of quality in what we play and how we sound; and the general public should be educated to recognize and appreciate good quality in their music, "
and, certainly, you're the guy to do it, Dave. But the above sure sounds like an elitist attitude to me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-30 14:41
As you know, Draz, in this country there is a strong dislike by the general population of anything that faintly resembles elitism --- which is fine if it is in fact 'elitism' that's in question --- but many Americans take that attitude too far and apply it to anyone who strives to exceed the average or mediocre in certain fields of endeavor. Witness the phenomenon of Sarah Palin and "Joe the Plumber". Too often in my business (engineering) those of us who can write and spell are frequently put down as 'elitists' or 'snobs' by those who can't write in their native language. They're actually proud of making spelling errors that wouldn't be tolerated by grade-school English teachers in, say, Switzerland (right, Ben?) for example. But heaven forbid we should correct them! We're ELITISTS if we do that. And heaven forbid we should call a spade a spade and state that the Emperor has no clothes and that Woody Allen sounds like crap on clarinet. Oh, my, that makes us ELITISTS!
Shoot me now, please. I'm done ranting. Enjoy your Acker and your McDonald's hamburger and your Kool-Aid. It's all good.
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2009-01-30 15:27
Just curious…Where does Henry Cuesta fit into this mix of Aker Bilk and Kenny G?
Allan
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-01-30 17:23
David,
I must respectfully disagree that one must accept average or adequate performance or else be labeled a snob. I think there is middle ground, and maybe I didn't articulate my position as well as I could have. For me, the snobbery comes from passing judgment, not from having your own opinion.
I'll use Kenny G as my example: Upon first hearing Kenny G, I did not really enjoy his music very much. To me, it seemed repetitive and simple, and I could think of 100 players (at least) whose improvisations I enjoyed more. Upon his continued success, though, I thought "how is this music connecting with so many people, and what am I missing?" There is obviously something in his compositions and playing that is pleasing to millions, and I think to dismiss it out of hand because it's too simple or basic is a mistake. I sometimes tell students in my music appreciation class that musicians and composers try to make their audience feel emotions through their works. Kenny G clearly makes millions feel emotions with his playing and compositions. Who am I to try to talk all of those people out of their emotions and opinions?
Now I think it's fine for anyone to say that they don't particularly care for that style of playing, or a particular sound, but I do think it's wrong to pass judgment as to whether something is inherently "good" or "bad". I don't care for Woody Allen's sound at all. If that sound came out of my clarinet, I would immediately search for another reed, mouthpiece, whatever, in order to get the sound I wanted. So I'm comfortable saying that I don't care for his sound. BUT he is getting the sound he wants, and others seem to enjoy it. How can I pass judgment and say they're wrong?
When I go to Baskin-Robbins, I never get Rum Raisin. Ever. But I wouldn't tell anyone that it is a "bad flavor" - just not my cup of tea, thank you very much!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-30 18:02
I think sometimes maybe we're a bit too careful pussy-footing around with our opinions, putting a paragraph of caveats in front of them along with a slew of "IMO"s and "IMHO"s, etc. in order not to offend anyone. OF COURSE we're stating our opinions --- music is an art form, not an exact science. So I'm not going to feel guilty by flat-out saying that "Woody Allen's clarinet playing sucks" (for example), because I believe that you understand that I'm merely expressing my opinion, and not making any sort of judgement of Mr. Allen's motives, or his joy in playing, or the reaction of his audience. And just because millions of people disagree with me about Kenny Gorelick's playing doesn't mean I have to roll over and play dead and not argue with them.
Gosh, I'm starting to sound a bit like Tony Pay! (Wish I could PLAY like he does......)
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2009-01-30 18:27
Mr Bilk has done pretty well for a guy that taught himself to play using a borrowed military clarinet while in confinement for sleeping on guard duty. He is also missing a couple of front teeth and half a finger. His, uh, unique sound, is supposed to be due to the missing teeth.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-01-30 18:32
Well LesterV nobody had to tell me that he taught himself to play. You here it and see it!!!!!!!!!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-30 18:33
ABerry wrote:
> Just curious…Where does Henry Cuesta fit into this
> mix of Aker Bilk and Kenny G
Two of them are still alive ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Henry Cuesta was not just a Welk clarinet player, but after the show ended he continued to play for faithful fans until his passing.
He fit the exact niche that Welk wanted: a true clarinetist (as opposed the the rest of the sax section who were clarinet doublers) who had a well developed commercial sound, could reproduce the Shaw/Goodman/Miller clarinet parts when needed, and could play in a Dixie style (or an occasional polka) when asked.
Although I've always felt that his small moments of improv were carefully planned ahead of time and fairly safe, he had a very pleasing tone and more than sufficient technical facility on the horn ...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-30 18:44
David Spiegelthal wrote:
...
Dave, the elitism comes in when someone tells us that we're not educated if we like (or dislike) a particular player.
"I don't like the paintings of Matisse" "That's because you're ignorant. If you were smart like me you'd be able to appreciate them"
"Well, I like the paintings of Reubens" "They're so passe'. You're just ignorant of the finer things ..."
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2009-01-30 21:37
I remember being taken to one of Acker Bilk's concerts as a child, just after I started playing. He was playing in a trad jazz band alongside Tony Coe, and I was very impressed with both of them (and fascinated by Tony Coe's rosewood clarinet). That concert was probably a big motivating factor in my enthusiasm for playing the clarinet.
So I wish him many happy returns.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-01-30 21:40
> Well LesterV nobody had to tell me that he taught himself to play. You here
> it and see it!!!!!!!!!
Iceland, so what? Does that make him a lesser artist?
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-30 21:51
graham wrote:
<<That said, he could never seriously be put up as a good example of fine jazz or classical playing, and I doubt very much that he would disagree (though I might be wrong about the jazz; some people rate him on that).>>
That was essentially the point I was trying to make (or at least part of it). Acker Bilk is certainly not a classical player (nor a modern jazz player), but he doesn't pretend to be one, either. He is who he is and he plays what he plays.
I actually don't particularly care for a lot of his recordings (especially the more easy-listening variety--his dixieland recordings are much better), but I think Stranger on the Shore (which he wrote for himself to play) is a decent tune and pleasant to listen to. For whatever reason, that sort of sound works in that song, so it doesn't bother me that he doesn't sound much like a clarinet.
Same thing goes for Jimmy Giuffre, who also didn't sound very clarinet-like, but was able to play tastefully with that fuzzy sound of his in a modern jazz style. He would have sounded just as out of place as a classical player as Acker Bilk, but he sounded just right in "The Train and the River."
I don't think it's "elitist" to dislike Acker Bilk's (or anyone else's) playing. As Mark suggested, what is elitist is denying others the right to an opinion.
That being said, though, it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me to expect a self-taught dixieland-type player to have a sound appropriate to classical playing---it's a bit like expecting 12-tone rows to be catchy tunes, as in that radio commercial parody I linked to.
It's one thing not to like the sound in context, but it's quite another to call it *wrong* or *bad* because you wouldn't use it to play classical music. After all, even Acker Bilk himself doesn't play classical music with that kind of sound, so what kind of argument is that for calling Acker's sound bad? It's like saying that John Cage's prepared piano music is bad because no one would be caught dead playing Beethoven Sonatas with machine screws and plastic spoons wedged between the strings--or that Eric Clapton is a bad guitarist because when cranks up his amp he doesn't sound a thing like Segovia.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-30 22:13
I guess my attitude as a clarinet player and music lover is this:
1) If you don't like someone's playing it's adequate to just say so without making disparaging comments like, "it sounds like crap", at least on this BB.
2) If someone's playing you don't like is liked by a significant number of others maybe you would benefit from trying to find out why they like it.
3) There are many different styles of clarinet playing and who is to say some are acceptable and some are not.
4) Personally I like Woody's playing mainly for its lack of sophistication and for his mission which is to keep authentic New Orleans style clarinet playing alive.
Maybe his playing hasn't changed (improved?) ; maybe he and others like it the way it is. My Mom's apple pie was always the same, that's what was so good about it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2009-01-30 23:48
This thread just prompted me to listen to several of Acker Bilk's recordings. My wife was a real fan before she passed away.
When listening to him, I think clarinet players must forget he is playing a clarinet and pretend it's some strange alien instrument. Perhaps some sort of cross between a kazoo and a sax, which he plays very well - much sensitivity and expression.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-01-31 07:58
About a year and a half ago, I went into Rhuben's shop in Hollywood with a maestro Guigui and saw Kenny G there. Rhuben made some adjustments on Kenny G's soprano sax and asked him to try it. Kenny G's 10 year old daughter was with him and maybe he was demonstrating for her as well. He really lit up the place with some impressive sounds and technique and I'm not talking about the pentatonic scale. He may be not be respected by some sax players but his playing is really first class if you hear him in person. He still plays on the original Selmer that he got at 16 years old.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2009-02-01 21:15
I'm doing a few recording sessions with Acker Bilk & Kenny G next week in NYC.
They're working together for the first time on a new Jazz "concept CD", I believe it's coming out in the early summer 2009, and the title is:
Ready?
*
*
*
*
*
* " 'round Noon"
(sorry, old joke!)
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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