 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2009-01-28 16:08
In the score of Mahler 5 the start of Movement II says Drei Klarinetten in C. Klarinette 3 abwechselnd mit Bassklarinette.
What does that mean exactly? You play the third clarinet part on the bass in C? Or the 3rd part is played by the bass clarinetist on a C clarinet?
You don't get to a nimmt Bassklarin. until right after 6 at which time the score shows a separate bass clarinet line.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-01-28 16:21
There are 3 parts in C with the third doubling bass
Peter Cigleris
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-01-28 18:01
Mahler Fifth 3rd clarinet part is for clarinets in A, Bb, C and D, plus bass clarinet in Bb (treble clef -- no worries). Actually all of these except C are used in the Scherzo movement 2.
I don't understand why your score specifies 3 C clarinets at the beginning of the movement -- all three players have to start the movement on A clarinets!
Happy juggling -- hope you get lots of doubling pay!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-01-28 18:20
I think you're asking about the Sturmisch bewegt (2.), which is not II Scherzo (3.).
The score I'm looking at (ditto my copy of the Clarinet 1 part) shows all three clarinets in C at the beginning of the movement (II), but they all switch to Bb at #2. As each part becomes independent, it gets its own line in the score, so that when the third clarinet changes to Bass Clarinet at #6, it has to be given its own staff. Still, only 3 clarinets, the 3rd doubling on bass (in Bb).
Karl
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2009-01-28 20:46
OK guess kdk has really answered my question. The question does in fact refer to Sturmishch bewegt 2., not II 3. Scherzo.
What caused my confusion was at the end of 1. Trauermarsch you are playing the bass in A from 19. Then you start Sturmishch bewegt 2. and there is no nimmt back to a soprano clarinet, just the change to C.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-28 23:10
In case you happen to see these words somewhere else in a different context and need to know (you never know), here's what they mean in a more literal sense:
"abwechselnd" = alternating or rotating (as in switching between things/actions or taking turns doing something--the root word, "wechseln," means "to exchange")
"abwechselnd mit X" = alternating with X
"nimmt" = (He, She, or It) takes
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-28 23:27
Confusing isn't it. When we do it in the BSO I play the D clarinet on the Bb clarinet. It's all tutti passages so you don't actually ever hear the tone quality, just intonation and blend. That way the Eb player doesn't have to come in and I don't have to bring in my Eb clarinet, either one of us has a D anyway. So it's up a third on the Bb instead of down a half step on the Eb. It's in a very playable range. I wouldn't do that if it was exposed of course because than the tone color would matter more. Please, no lecture on playing the instrument the composer asked for that was on a tread a while back. I've played this dozens of times with guest conductors and every music director we've ever had including our present one and no one ever noticed or said anything. Besides, I've been playing bass clarinet parts in A on my Bb bass clarinet all my life.
Have fun, ESP. www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-01-29 18:59)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-01-28 23:33
bill28099 wrote:
"OK guess kdk has really answered my question."
Well actually we all answered your question.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2009-01-29 12:41
Well only sort of but I have an answer based on the score. The question in the beginning was at the start of 2. Sturmisch bewegt is the third clarinet playing a soprano clarinet in C or a bass clarinet in C. I asked the question because at 19 of 1. Trauermarsch there is a nimmt. Bassklar. and nowhere between that point and 2. are you told to switch back. You only realize that you must change horns by looking at the score unless in Mahler there is some implied rule at the start of a movement that I don't know about or when in C a soprano is always used. In the score it appears that the bass clarinet always has its own stave, at the start of 2. there is none only a single stave with 3 clarinets in C.
Anyway, I've informed our orchestra manager that this is all too much for a retired 65 year old amateur, maybe they'll split the part or get a pro. I was really interested in Ed Palanker's comment about the use of a Bb clarinet in place of an Eb/D. It had not occurred to me that that would be an acceptable method for filling the part, I had planned on using an Eb. Since I have the D parts entered in Sibelius all I have to do is transpose up a major/perfect 3rd which adds 4 #s and I'll have a part for Bb clarinet???
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2009-01-29 12:57)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-01-29 13:08
There's no explicit rule (there's no rulebook for composers to consult), but when a part says "in C" you can assume it means a soprano clarinet in C.
Your transposition is correct.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-29 19:32
I've never seen a bass clarinet part in C in all the years I've been playing professionally. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-29 19:38
I've never seen a part in C,
I never hope to see one.
But if I see a part in C
I'd rather C than B one!
(stolen without shame from somebody)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-30 11:18
There are some good shots of the clarinet section in the Bernstein/Vienna dvd of Mahler 5 but I don't recall seeing the Bass. Will watch more closely next time.
Ah, the adagietto!.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-30 17:25
Hi Bob, of course the Adagietto is just strings but you knew that. There is bass clarinet in his 5th but very little. It's mostly a 3rd clarinet part with some bass. Probably the least of any of his symphonies, but what a great symphony. His first 5 symphonies the bass clarinet is always doubling clarinet, his first even has an Eb duet that the bass clarinet part has. After that, if my memory is correct, the 6th-9th he writes for the bass clarinet in an exclusive part, no doubling on clarinet, no Bb, A, C, Eb or D clarinet, just bass, some in A some in Bb. ESP
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Author: awm34
Date: 2009-01-31 01:42
I never saw a purple cow;
I never hope to see one;
but I can tell you anyhow;
I'd rather see than be one!
[Gelett Burgess, 1895]
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Author: davyd
Date: 2009-01-31 02:24
IIRC, Prokofiev's "Love for 3 oranges" suite has a part for bass clarinet in C (in treble clef) along with 2 regular clarinets in C. I'm wondering if perhaps the copyist didn't know about transposing instruments?
Returning to topic: are there such things as published parts for Mahler symphonies with bass clarinet in A transposed to Bb? Or is it up to the player to work things out?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-01-31 03:01
All of Prokofiev's scores are non-transposed; i.e. every instrument is written for in concert pitch. Unfortunately he didn't specify clarinets in A or Bb or whatever. Ignorant copyists, especially in pirate editions (Kalmus?) , made some poor guesses resulting in low Eb in the clarinet solo in Peter and the Wolf, also a lot of B-major arpeggios in the Classical Symphony.
I'm not aware of transposed Mahler symphony bass clarinet parts -- it would sure be handy in the 6th, with highly chromatic passage written in A!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-31 04:46
Thank you davyd, I remember now that some parts of the Love of Three Oranges is in C bass clarinet but as Larry said, that was the publisher not the composer. The Mahler parts will be included in book 4 of bass clarinet parts in A transposed to Bb for by Michael Drapkin. Hopefully some time this or next year, he's working on it now. ESP
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2010-05-11 22:42
I'm playing this part starting tomorrow with an orchestra. It looks like it is going to be a blast! The unisons playing Altissimo G sharps make me a little nervous considering there will be an oboe and flute up there with me on the same note and nothing else really covering us!
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