 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-01-11 22:19
Just my opinion - but with some many years experience to back it up I suppose. These sorts of things happen all the time and you almost always hurt your self more in he long run by "fighting" them. Your college/conservatory admission will not be affected by this. There are a lot of potentially important lessons you can learn from this - not the least of which is remembering that none of us is intitiled. Sounds to me like you are an excellent player with a long bright future ahead of you. This one's not worth it, IMO.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-01-11 22:20
It happens all the time in the profession. You have to deal with it and move on to the next project. You should also look quite hard and see if something did go wrong. There really is no such thing as a perfect audition. It really doesn't hurt to be humble.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-01-11 22:42
It's certainly possible that score sheets were mixed up. Assuming the audition was blind there's less likelihood that anyone deliberately sabotaged you. Your band director has asked the audition chairperson to check. Most of the time audition score sheets are identified by a number so the judges don't know whom they're listening to. It's easy enough, assuming they've kept the score sheets after everything was tabulated, to go back and find the scales/sightreading sheet with your number on it and see if the correct scores were recorded.
If the result is that a mistake was made, they will probably revise the results and give you the chair your score should have earned. If you are told the score was correct, then the best you can do is accept it and go on from there. There's no such thing in the real world as a completely fair audition. At best the kind of audition you played is a snapshot of how you played during those couple of minutes that you were in the room with the judges. Different judges will react differently to the same performance, and the judges in auditions for student groups like this get only a very short sample of each student's playing to work with.
If the results stand, think of anything you might have done better and then wait for the next opportunity to show what you can do.
Karl
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2009-01-11 22:55
Oh I have been cheated on marks from the conservtory here, as well as auditions. My last clarinet exam, while I know I am an excellent sightreader and my musical friends and teachers agree with me there, I only got an average mark for sight reading. Even a couple of summers ago, on my music history exam, if I hadn't been cheated on 5-6 marks, that would have put my history exam mark in the 90% range, or at least very close to it. I've had great auditions at various times and not get accepted, or get a lower chair, while hearing a lot of musicians who don't play as well getting accepted. Even as recently as last November, I could not play much clarinet for a month due to having dental work done, I got kicked out of the orchestra, yet there are clarinetists in that orchestra who can either barely play the instrument, or do so relatively tastelessly, like use a klezmer sound for classical playing.
Meri
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-01-11 23:12
I am with Peter Cigleris on that issue. Won't be the last time you're getting unfair treatment (be it audition, job interview, whatever). In my experience, a person who can stomach the occasional blow below the belt will, in the long run, be a better teammate (and a more dependable and thus worthy colleague) than an all-time winner.
This won't help you a lot in your current grief (which I sympathise with), but it's not the end of the world. Good directors and musicians in general aren't idiots nor ignorants, and they will recognise your talent despite the occasional setback. Not just in music but in whatever you choose to do in your professional life.
--
Ben
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-01-11 23:58
"Good directors and musicians in general aren't idiots nor ignorants, and they will recognise your talent despite the occasional setback. Not just in music but in whatever you choose to do in your professional life."
Well said, Ben.
Humility is a VERY hard lesson for most musicians to learn. We love to shine! I daresay each of us on this board has gotten what we deemed to be an unfair shake at some point in our musical lives. It's hard to swallow and move on but in the end, I think it can speak worlds about your personality and character.
If you're that good, you WILL be rewarded with success. It just didn't happen this time. It hurts. I know.
(Possible scenario: because of your success over the last years, you might have inspired those clarinetists you've beaten out in the past to REALLY work hard and come prepared to outplay you. You might have been the standard to beat!)
Post Edited (2009-01-12 00:00)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-01-12 01:11
Marino -
Mistakes happen, and everyone gets screwed many times over the years.
It's extremely important to learn to put disappointments behind you. Life's unfair. The ones who make it to the top go on in spite of everything.
Play your best. If you can carry the clarinet section on your shoulders from first chair, you can do the same from fourth chair.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2009-01-12 01:50
I think it's likely there was either a mixup with the scores or even shenanigans on the part of the judges. You made your case to your teacher and directors - now the ball's in their court. Venting here is about all you can do, and I think venting one's frustration can be a good thing, so have at it.
Sadly, the world isn't perfect, and life isn't fair. You might as well learn that now. I've seen so many cases of weird judging. And it's not just the musical world. If I recall correctly, there have been all kinds of judging scandals in the sports world - ice skating and gymnastics especially.
You asked us for similar experiences. Well, here are two of mine. One turned out well, the other didn't.
When I was in high school, I thought I won a regional audition handily. After the audition was over, three of us were told that we had to play again. I was miffed, but went ahead and did it. Later, one of the judges told me what happened - he and another judge had me first. The third judge, who had students in the audition, put me sixth, which dropped me to third overall. So the other two judges insisted on the callback. That was a case where one judge was up to no good, but the others made him behave. Thanks to them, I won the audition.
In another audition, a professional audition in fact, I made the finals and thought I would win, since no one else there seemed like much competition. Well, I was wrong - someone else won, though she had played poorly. I found out later that the conductor vetoed me, claiming my sound wouldn't be a good match for the orchestra. That may be true, I guess, but the person who ended up getting the job despite a weak audition just happened to be the conductor's girlfriend.
Obviously something weird happened to you - just shrug it off. Take first at state again, and this district audition will seem very minor in comparison.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-12 02:06
JessKateDD wrote:
> I think it's likely there was either a mixup with the scores or
> even shenanigans on the part of the judges.
Or not ... sometimes we think we've done much better than what really happened. The mind can play funny tricks - in either direction.
Personally, I wish they'd tape these things.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-01-12 02:50
"In the solo room, I was the only one all day to recieve a perfect score from both judges."
You know, I just went back and read over the orginal post.
HOW do you know you were the only one all day to receive a perfect score in the solo room? If it's because you asked every clarinet auditioner who came out of that room what their score was, that is VERY unprofessional--if that was the case.
Personally, I can't stand it when kids who go to an audition start to quiz each other about how they did or what the judges said. An audition is private for a reason.
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2009-01-12 03:08
Hmm, well I've never been really cheated. But, I have gone into auditions and felt really good, only to have done badly. And then there was this year when I didn't feel too great about my audition and I moved up about, well, twenty chairs. As others have said, don't sweat it. Like my director told all of us the day before our auditions when we were extremely nervous, "get over yourselves. Honestly, this is districts, nobody cares. You can get nervous for all states." Play well and add something great to the clarinet section. That's all you can do.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-01-12 03:11
I agree with Claire. 9 out of 10 people you meet (or that I have met anyway) that are successful and impressive clarinetists (and musicians for that matter) are humble. They aren't great because they are better than someone else, or they play more concerts in more places than the next guy in line, or that they get the highest acclaim from reviewers when they play concerts.
Most have a desire to show their talents and abilities to others. Most have a will and desire to teach these abilities and draw out the potential of other musicians through teaching. While they have drive to excel, most don't do it for the sake of getting the perfect job or playing better than everyone else.
That being said, I've been in auditions in HS where the results were COMPLETELY upside down of what they should have been. This happened twice, both in Region Jazz band tryouts (I used to play tenor sax once upon a time). The last chair should have been first and the first should have been last.
It was a combination of a few people who were socially connected and had recognizable sounds to the judges (not necessarily good sounds...just recognizable) and the judges not being real jazz players. I wasn't first chair either way you slice it though.
You'd be much better off just letting this one go. Anything beyond a "re-count" of the audition would be sour grapes, and not a good way to establish a good reputation for yourself.
All the best,
Nathan
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-01-12 05:00
Try not to let this bother you too much. A clerical problem is certainly possible, but I think that JessKate's district story illustrates how anxious your band directors are to avoid this.
I don't think it likely at all that a judge would try to sabotage you. Under most common circumstances it would be nearly impossible anyway. Also, you had two judges in each room and I think that's a pretty good protection against your scores going too haywire.
Also be mindful that these kinds of events are enterprises of the band directors themselves, and in most cases you agree to abide by their rules and judgements as a condition of participation.
That's because it's not just you who needs to move on. Sooner or later, a decision must be made and stuck to so that results can be published, preparations made and so the events can actually occur.
Hopefully, that 4th chair still gives you your shot at All-State auditions. See if you're vindicated there. Lots of unfair is going to take place in your career. Sometimes you might win unfairly rather than lose unfairly. Take a deep breath, and then take your next step.
Allen Cole
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-01-12 12:01
Our auditioned groups (PA Music Educators' Ass'n and Bucks County Music Educators' Ass'n) distribute score reports to all the group directors to share with their students. The total scores are broken down by subscores (scales, sightreading, solo) for each student, so all participants know what each did in each room. It would be impossible for a student to poll the other auditionees at the audition site about their scores, because no one is told their scores when they play - everyone finds out how they did when the reports are distributed several days later.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-01-12 12:26
The three players who are sitting ahead of you are likely surprised if they know you and are familiar with your ability. If you fight this and claw your way to the top, thus pushing them downward, imagine what they will think of you then.
Best to swallow the medicine, and take the high road. Be the best 4th chair they've ever had, and don't even bring it up while you are among the other players. The director will think more of you, those who know your story and agree with you will think more of you, your fellow clarinetists will think more of you. In the professional world, it is often the musician with the best attitude that is selected.
Case in point...our choir performed a Christmas cantata this year during our Sunday morning services. Hard-pressed to find a harp player during the season, my husband (choir director) finally found one. Upon offering payment that was equal and acceptable to the other players, the harpest said, "I usually get more than that." Knowing the harpest didn't have a gig on that particular Sunday morning, my husband was unwilling to offer him any more than he was paying the other 25 musicians.
During a break in practice, the soprano section was leaving the choir loft, and had to pass by the harpest, who was going over some of the music on his own. It was a tight squeeze to get by the harp, and ON PURPOSE, the harpest elbowed several choir members on their way out, mumbling to himself that they were disturbing him and needed to find another way out.
He played very well. He was bold enough to leave behind 4-color brochures about himself in the choir room. Cockiness gets you no where. Because of his attitude, my husband and our choir will be glad to let him play elsewhere in the future.
When it comes time to audition for the next thing, it's probably best not to go into the audition room and assume you have first chair. As proven here, you never know.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-01-12 13:47
I have learned much from my oldest grandson. He is all everything athletically and academically in his school as well as the conference and region. He is almost off the scale in the ACTs and the college offers are pouring in.
But you'd never know it from him. He choses to stay below the radar, does tremendous community service, is always willing to help, and is by far, one of the humblest people I've ever me (after 44 years of HS and college teaching, I have seen a lot of young men and women of that age group).
There are times that he or his twin sister (also all-everything but not so humble) have been passed over and the most that Matthew will says is "what the heck..." and that's it.
What's my point. As Bluesparkle has so wisely suggested, "be the best 4th chair they've ever had" and move on. Make this a learning experience as this is how you build character.
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-12 14:51
Well said, Hank. Every experience teaches us something......even humility sometimes.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-01-12 17:02
Thanks, Draz. I have learned much about humility from grandson Matt.
Maybe Marino can view his current disappointing experience in a different light.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-01-12 17:28
Thanks, everyone, for your insight. This will help me get past my own troubling experience with judges. We stress over the results because it takes SO much sacrifice and effort to prepare... not just our own sacrifice, but for our family members too. But grandson Matt's response is a good one to remember. Move on! There are other great things happening, and people will remember your good nature and prefer to have you around.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-01-12 18:10
> We stress over the results because it takes SO much sacrifice and effort to
> prepare...
Bear in mind that you are doing that for yourself in the long run...
Now I start to sound like my parents...I'm getting old I guess. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2009-01-12 18:52
I had a situation wher I was auditioning for a wind symphony and it was only my second year since returning to the clarinet after a forty year layoff.
My only goal was to be able to play in the group.
In the same auditions was an all district high schooler who could play circles around me.
When the scores came out the next week, I had placed five positions higher than he had.
I didn't hear his audition, but I (for me) had aced mine.
He was bit upset. We both (and everyone else in the section) knew he was a much better overall player. I felt great and he eventually got over it.
The following year he placed five positions above me.
C'est la vie
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2009-01-12 20:26
When I started in Highschool band we had to try out for chairs at the start of the year. I had always been first chair or second from 5th grade till high school the results came out,I was 11th chair. It blew my mind but, my mom stopped me from making a fool of my self(thanks mom!). I challenged the second week of school won 10 th chair kept challenging worked my way up to first chair by the end of the second semester.It was very humbling and a good lesson for me.When I finally got first chair I knew I deserved it and was very proud...
I feel for you and understand totally,keep your chin up,you will rise to the top where you belong!
Pamela J.
Post Edited (2009-01-12 20:27)
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Author: malanr
Date: 2009-01-12 20:47
First of all, relax. Just as most of the other people have stated, it won't matter when you audition for university. The only person that it will bother is going to be you.
Second, my story.
I had always been in the top of the seating chart in my band, even when I was a freshman and sophomore. I didn't have much of a chance of a first chair seating until my senior year. Most of the other "good" players were taking lessons from the band director's old friend, and they were the ones getting all of the best seating. (But remember every seat is important)
I had actually taken a semester off of playing clarinet to pursue helping the Tuba section (yea, i play tuba too), and I played tuba for the xmas concert. Shortly after the xmas holiday, we had auditions for Symphonic band, and I went over all of the material on clarinet, and practiced until audition day.
I did the same as you, perfect on the scales, perfect on sight reading, perfect on the "solo". I also confirmed that I had a perfect score, by one of the "top students" that was taking lessons from the dude, and just happen to see the score sheet.
What happened next, I was not prepared for.
I was placed 1st chair, second part. I was beat out by one of the "chosen" students. I was upset.
Then, this is what happened.
(sorry if i'm seeming long winded, i just like to make my point)
We started playing and planning for contest, and I was asked to do something that no other clarinet student was asked to do. One piece, I played Soprano, another piece I was asked to play Bb Bass, and another piece, I played Contrabass.
I was excited that I was asked to play these other parts, because I had no previous experience with these instruments, and I felt that I was chosen for a reason.
Then I had a talk with my band director. He said that he wanted me to be on second part so that when he needed to "fill" the other parts, he knew that the other parts wouldn't suffer me not playing soprano.
Just remember, every part is important. If you think that you should only be playing the First Chair/First Part, then you need to find a quartet that only has one clarinet part. (no offense intended)
Music is for Life!!!
Just another muscian
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-01-12 23:15
It's highly likely that nothing at all happened except that the judges when they heard you in their personal opinion for that particular audition/day placed you where they felt you should place based on your playing.
Were they right?
Maybe, maybe not!
So all you can do is next year show em who can play well.
Or possibly there will be a reaudition at the festival for upper seating.
Buddy of mine in 10th grade placed 6th in the local regional band. When the director went down the row to play a section and he played the conductor said out loud "why are you THERE???"
I don't remember if he made him 1st chair or not, however that year and the next year and the year after that he (who now plays in the Naval Academy Band) made 1st Chair All VA Band.
Year before the 1st Chair was San Francisco Sym Clarinetist Louis Baez.
I was in that band the year that Louis was 1st (I moved To Penn. the year after).
So you never know who will get what and who will get beaten in any year.
Never, ever a guarantee. Sometimes the judges aren't very good - it does happen.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: reprise
Date: 2009-01-23 01:24
I empathize -- it's a crappy feeling to come out thinking you'd blown them away and then discover that it's not reflected in the results.
I'll add my own story to the list. More than 25 years ago, I had an All-State audition as a sophomore in high school. I'd placed second in the state the previous year, and had placed first in the lower-rung competitions.
The student who auditioned immediately before me completely bombed his audition. He was a very good clarinetist but had a very bad day -- I don't think I've ever heard a worse audition -- every few notes were squeaks, scales were flubbed, sight-reading kind of crashed and burned. I felt horrible for him.
I went in next and played the best audition I had ever done in my life. Everything came together perfectly in my solo, my scales were fine, the sight reading was not difficult. The people outside listening were ecstatic when I came out of the room -- they said they'd never heard me play so well or so musically. I was hoping that it might have been good enough to make first chair.
I know All-States are different everywhere -- in my case, those of us who placed high enough in our district went on to this audition. The best players were then given seating assignments for the festival.
When the results came in, the guy who had bombed his audition placed somewhere near the top of the 2nd clarinet section. My scores were so bad that I didn't even get selected to play in the festival. I still remember how devastating that felt... especially because the people who'd heard both of our auditions were equally baffled. The question in their mind had been what chair would I get -- not whether I would make it into the festival or not. I've always wondered whether our scores got mixed up or something.
My private teacher urged me to ask my band director to have it looked into. Our auditions were tape-recorded, so someone from the association was able to go back and listen to the tapes again to determine whether an error had occurred. They ended up inviting me to be in the festival, in the very last chair. (I think that even if they'd wanted to place me higher they wouldn't have, because it would've meant moving other people around.) But I was happy to get to play regardless of what chair I sat in.
All of which is to say -- it happens. It sucks. Of course you're disappointed and upset - -who wouldn't be? But as others have already expressed, injustices (both intentional and unintentional) are a sad fact of both the audition circuit and life in general. If someday you get to sit in the judge's chair, you can remember this as an incentive to make sure you are both careful and fair -- and you can call on the memory to be empathetic to your own students when they experience similar things.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2009-01-23 06:22
ah, Taylor Marino. You did an amazing job last year at all state. I was in the 11-12 group. As for what happened, were your auditions blind? I know Diana is a very good player but I when I saw the scores I wondered if something went wrong. Could it also have been that maybe your interpretation of the piece wasn't what the judges wanted? I know our solo piece is kinda not musical and just all arpeggiated studies but did you add a little too much? Things like this happen all the time. My sophomore year at all state, I auditioned after Rashad. Judge one had me right next to him, I think like .3 or so behind him, judge two had me 15pts behind Rashad. I've learned to deal with it and move on. I'm in the Southeastern district, and I had a great audition on scales and solo, but I BOMBED my sightreading, or so I thought and I got two 29s, and ended up getting 4th chair. Our auditions are blind though. If they mixed up your scores, don't sweat it. You will prevail at all-state. I wish I could say I will see you there but I will miss all-state for Senior Prom.
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