 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-01-10 22:04
Someone recently posted here a collection of extracts from posts by me, recontextualised by him, that he claimed demonstrated a particular something – a very negative something – about my character. Though I had other things on my mind at the time -- and anyway, couldn't face the job of going through his post to put the extracts back into context -- it's been suggested to me that I should say something about them. I hope my saying this other 'something' doesn't turn out to spawn the same sort of thread (also started by me) that his post inhabited.
Of course, I suppose his collection of extracts, however biased, did demonstrate something about how I operate. But I want to say that if those extracts were to be examined closely in context, they would also have demonstrated a variety of things about the various people to whom the posts were addressed. I was 'rude' to each one of them, perhaps; but rude to each one of them for a different – and to me, justifiable -- reason.
I admit to having an overall intention. But obviously, I don't post in order to promote MYSELF, because clearly I do myself no good here. If I were promoting myself, I wouldn't be criticising Ed Palanker – I'd be sucking up to him to get myself invited to do guest masterclasses at Peabody. And I certainly wouldn't be making negative comments about the American system.
The thing is, I'm not fighting MY corner here – I'm fighting YOURS.
What do I mean by that?
Well, very many of you don't know who to believe – even though, arguably, some of you do. So when it's reported here that Phiippe Cuper tells you that even the latest version of the Poulenc Sonata contains 'wrong' notes, you're tempted to take that at its face value. And when Jonathan Cohler tells you that the clarinet goes flat when you play it louder, because the resultant sound contains more of the clarinet's 'flat overtones', you're tempted to take that at its face value too. And when Ken Shaw tells you Arnold Jacobs tells you that muscular oppositions in clarinet playing are counterproductive, you might well go along with THAT. And when Sabine Meyer AND Richard Stolzman play a particular passage in the Copland concerto 'swung', then obviously that must be the right thing to do – right?
Closer to home: when Ed Palanker says here that it's a good idea to keep your tongue down when you play the clarinet – about as sensible as telling you to keep your tongue down when you TALK – and refuses to write coherent sentences in reply to obvious objections, then you might well believe that too. (It works for him, after all – or does it? Hell, it must do – he's PROFESSOR at PEABODY.)
How about, you can't breathe as well sitting down as you can standing up? (I had to work quite hard at that one on the Klarinet list. Someone said that he'd done scientific experiments that demonstrated it, because he'd used REAL SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS:-)
How about, you have to be totally relaxed when you play, and the reason the best players make it look easy is that it IS easy? How about, you have to play double lip to get the best sound? (Ralph McLane thought so, and HE was professor at CURTIS.)
How about, you have to play perfectly at an audition – one mistake, and you're out?
...and more...
...beginning to get the picture?
The thing is, I DO know something about who to believe, just because I've been lucky enough to have the relevant experiences and input, and the time and inclination to think about them.
So, that's why I'm sometimes rude. I get fed up with some of the people who oppose me fighting YOUR corner here.
But, I'll go on doing it, for a bit. Fortunately, there are a few good people helping me:-)
And I hope that in the future, there will be more. I'd like this BBoard to be a model of what the Internet can be, as a resource for serious people as well as playful people.
Tony
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Author: lj
Date: 2009-01-10 23:27
"I'd like this BBoard to be a model of what the Internet can be, as a resource for serious people as well as playful people."
Bravo. Many thanks for being both serious and playful, and for all of the informative and thought-provoking posts.
(Disclaimer: I'm more of a linguist than a musician--you had me at "context." :-)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-11 01:45
I did say that I wouldn't read or respond to Tony's posts or thread again but someone told me that my name was mentioned in this post so I thought I'd read it and clarify something. I have put our past disagreement behind me so the past is the past as far as I'm concerned.
If I actually said what Tony said I did about the tongue position then I apologize to him and my readers. I do not believe in "keeping the tongue down". Below is what I have posted on some other writings so I assumed I wrote basically the same thing on the post he is talking about. If I didn't then here is a clarification of what I meant. I do not believe that everyone should play the way I do and I certainly don't teach that way. I take into consideration the needs and physical attributes of each player and help them develop into the best player they can be. I do not teach all students to play the way I do just because I play a certain way. I don't try to make clones of my students. As far as tonguing goes, some people have larger, smaller, thicker and thinner tongues. One has to find what works best for them, that’s what I try to help them develop.
Here is what I believe.
First let me say that I don’t believe there is such a thing as one correct tongue position. Everything depends on a person’s physical make up. We all have different size body parts and that certainly includes the tongue. The one thing I think most people will agree is that a low tongue position in the back will most likely cause an unfocused and perhaps flat tone, especially in the throat tones. Though when the tongue is too high in front you are creating a small air passage and that can contribute to getting a forced, bright tone.
As a student I had trouble tonguing up to high G and Leon Russianoff told me it was probably because I was closing off the air passage when I went up high by raising my tongue too high in the front trying to voice those notes. Once I got the concept of keeping it a lower in front the problem went away. Later Joe Allard tried to get me to keep my tongue high in front so I could tongue the reed tip to tip but he realized my tongue was to large and I was choking off the tone. At first I was very confused by the whole thing until I analyzed myself more and realized what was happening. Now I always think low in the back of my throat and keep my tongue low in the front and high in back, never the EE feeling like so many players do.
I have the back of the tongue up high in between or up near the upper molars. Then I like to angle the front of my tongue in an arch so that the front of my tongue touches my lower lip above my lower teeth. When I tongue I do use near the tip of my tongue and it goes in a slight upward angle to the reed instead of a straight stroke like Allard tried to get me to do. I use the back of my tongue and area by the larynx to voice my high notes, not just the front of my tongue. I’m not saying that’s best for everyone, but it works for me because I have a large tongue. That way too, I get a darker, fuller sound then when the front of my tongue is high in my mouth. One has to consider your physical attributes and experiment to find the best position. It also depends on the quality your looking for too, you may like a brighter or darker sound so go for it. The only correct way to do anything on the clarinet is what works best for you, the Russianoff way. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-01-11 13:28)
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-01-11 03:06
Bravo Tony. Reading your posts is always insightful inside the mind of a true thinker.
Ed, that was one of the most informative posts I've ever read on this board. What we need are more speils like that.
And alan, I at least read them. But I'm a grade A nerd, so take it with a grain of salt.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Lee
Date: 2009-01-11 03:28
Alan, it depends on who's post it is. Posts from Tony, Ed and several others I do read. Others it may depend on subject.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-11 13:51
Here is another post I wrote in the past when answering someone about tonguing. Please note again, I do not advocate that anyone play with their tongue down low near or at the bottom on their mouth. I don't believe it is even possible to play the clarinet, or even to speak, with your tongue very low. It's all a matter of degrees, and tongue size. What's low for one person may be considered high for another. We may be talking about 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch, more or less. If I did use the term "low" before I meant low for me not necessarily low for anyone else. I hope this puts this to rest if I wasn't clear in the past. Here is the past post below.
"Tonguing problems are not always black and white because people have different size tongues. Some teachers teach the same way to everyone, insisting that their way is the only correct way. Unfortunately that doesn’t work for a good number of people. So, you have to experiment. I advocate arching the tongue in back so it is near or touching the upper molars. Then bring the front of your tongue as close to the tip of the reed as you can and as close to the tip of your tongue as you can. "As you can" means it will be different for many people, it could be close to the tip or even a bit further back. If your tongue is on the longer side, as mine is, you will actually come up from under the reed and stroke the reed from below instead of at a straight angle as so many insist you do. Basically you have to experiment to find what works best for you. A really good teacher will not only encourage you to do this but will give you ideas on the angle and tongue position to achieve your maximum goal. It’s a shame that there are so many, including some very fine teachers, that insist all their students tongue the same way they do, mostly because it came natural to them and they have no concept of how else to tongue. The secret is to use a light stroke with as little movement as possible without blocking the air passage or choking in your throat. Experiment!" ESP
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-01-11 15:33
Tony Pay sez he "Fighting YOUR corner" - the question occurs; Is he wearing a Batman mask and cape while he fights for the honor of the Clarinet BB?
Sometimes he makes an interesting point but his smugness, malice, and bloated egoism make him distasteful to read. What's more after wading through a swamp of pedantry you'll find he's often wrong.
Lighten up Tony and show some respect for people who not only may be your equal but a cut or two superior!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2009-01-11 18:14
Geezer,
Pedantry may be in the eye of the beholder. But claiming someone is "often
wrong" without supporting that claim is, to me at least, unacceptable. Can you
provide, say, five (to cover the "often") examples of situations in which Tony has been "wrong"?
Dan Oberlin
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2009-01-11 19:57
Old Geezer - the whole point is that Tony DOESN'T wear a mask when he posts here. He posts under his own name and is prepared to justify and stand behind every point that he makes.
Anyway - even if he does only 'occasionally' make a good point, and if it comes alongside 'smugness, malice and egoism' it's still better to get the odd useful thing from a post rather than the small and pointless same things repeated over and over again we see elsewhere on the board.
Tony's teaching is - in my experience - conducted unsurprisingly in a similar way to his posts. Teachers have listened to me play and said plenty of good things, but that to me is only of limited help. I know I can play the clarinet - Tony says what's wrong and offers solutions or provides you with more food for thought. His posts on this board seem in essence to try and achieve the same thing - in 95% of cases he achieves that. In real life I'm sure many people (THEY are the ones I'd say have a big ego) that don't enjoy being told there's anything wrong with their musicianship, it seems that such people also reside here in cyberclarinetspace.
I am frankly still at a loss as to how you can be so damning of Tony in public with no display of your own credentials at all.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-01-11 21:29
Personally I find content far more important than presentation. To me, in terms of content, Tony's posts are among the very best on this BBoard.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-11 22:45
Dan Oberlin wrote:
> Can you
> provide, say, five (to cover the "often") examples of
> situations in which Tony has been "wrong"?
Please don't. I had to drive for six hours today unexpectedly, I don't feel all that well, and I don't want this thread go down in the dumper like the last one did. I would have deleted "old geezers" post had I been here since it was yet again a personal comment rather than on-topic for this thread.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2009-01-11 23:18
Liquorice wrote:
> Personally I find content far more important than presentation.
> To me, in terms of content, Tony's posts are among the very
> best on this BBoard.
agreed!
old geezer wrote:
Lighten up Tony and show some respect for people who not only may be your equal but a cut or two superior!
i write:
so just because someone plays better it means that he automaticly know everything better and shall not be argued with?
knowledge is ment to be questioned!!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-01-12 00:28
the sound of silence is sometimes the loudest...
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-01-12 00:30)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-01-12 00:43
I am sure there is a scientific answer for every problem out there.I am pretty sure that playing the clarinet like a scientist is not such a good idea.
However, I do know some scientologists that play clarinet very well. Ha ha!!!
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-01-12 00:43)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-01-12 03:23
"the sound of silence is many times not the loudest" also.........
For me the best clarinetist is a blend of scientist and artist. The mind and heart can work together!
Listen to a little...
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-01-12 03:26)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-01-12 13:15
The most gratifying moment for me was in 88 playing Bruckner 8 as Principal Clarinet under Carl Maria Giulini with the European Youth Orchestra.
In rehearsal he was always interesting to listen to...
He said...(in italian)..."The clarinet is the voice of an angel..but don't forget the Seraphim!!"
what he meant was in conversation we found out as wind players from him at break was solo playing is important..roughly he translated as "but blend in tutti is an art...not a science.." The results were always amazing..
On numerous occasions he would say..."canto, canto" sing sing..The important element was how well we played because of his gentleness...
He soon after went on to record this particular Bruckner symphony with the Vienna Phil which is certainly one of the finer versions of the work ever put on record. He also told us "music must be made by souls of similar purpose.. an hopefully hearts.." Then he put his hand to chest and would smile.
His influence on me because of his humility and warmth will always be of first importance.
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-01-12 13:21)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-01-12 16:30
Certainly one doesn't want to fetter the lyricism of a player with needless information and strategies but there is so much knowledge that is useful and beneficial to making great music. This knowledge and our quest for it goes hand in hand with the art. Don't tie yourself in knots with information but at least have a rope available. Ignorance doesn't make for a singing performance or a tutti that is superb. There is stuff to know and stuff to feel. Both in my mind are useful in performing well.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-01-12 17:13
I agree Arnold..that is why you go get a private teacher and keep the internet learning to a minimal..music is a lived experience. The internet is only a tool. Practice..a good teacher and learning how to work with others in music is not done on the internet...
If you have time for long winded posts than there are plenty of others out there who have more time on their hands than I have for not only writing them..but reading them. If things can't be learned amiably then why are we here?
I would add most people find confrontational posts a bore...the internet is also a great place for criminals as well. Bullying and insults on a learning board are unacceptable. Attacks on ideas and personality online are now being taken alot more seriously by law enforcement agencies as well...so there ya have.
I have been playing and teaching professionally for 25 years feel there is alot of there for students if they work hard. I don't think the internet offers much in terms of the nitty gritty kind of learning a student needs one on one.
As to intellectualizing I leave it to others...a musician is no different from a scientist..both have to be able to solve problems for themselves.
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-01-12 17:20)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-01-12 18:07
Point taken David. There is lots of verbal sparring here(bulletin board) that is not essential to good clarinet playing. I am not a student and just happen to enjoy this variety of stuff......useful, trivia, scientific, philosophic. I never suggested long discussions were essential for you to play the Poulenc Sonata well. Students could learn something here especially by participating. They would learn to express themselves better and learn to interact with other contributors. Thinking individually is great but add discussion to this and it is even better in my opinion. I'm all for head to head combat with marshmellows for weapons. Keep the insults out. As far as your use of 'intellectualizing" I guess you mean overdoing it. I'm of the opinion that most people underdo it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: myshineyblackjoy
Date: 2009-01-12 20:14
I for one like Tony's post. They add spice to the board and tend to get people thinking and responding. He is a little gruff,but, so was Einstein and look what he contributed to the world. My point is everyone has something to contribute. Let's set back and enjoy this ride called life and try not to take things so personally. I posted a quote once and got an email telling me all my mistakes in the posting (spelling ,grammer ,punctuation and such).At first I was pissed off and insulted. The I realized it was only meant to help and I went back and edited the post. Eventhough I didn't realize one must have perfect grammer and punctuation to post on this on this board.( Just Kidding!!)
Pamela J.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-01-12 20:21
"I didn't realize one must have perfect grammer and punctuation to post on this on this board."
Jest yewz da spalchek lyke da reast uv uz dew.........
[it should be in your tool bar]
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-01-12 20:53
Spellcheck won't help you when you inaccurately paraphrase Tony like I did. He was all over me. I learned pretty quick. Arn.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-13 02:03
Well said, Tony. I think we all owe you a debt of gratitude for your willingness to speak candidly, even when it is against your interest to do so.
Even if some folks on here don't like the way you say what you say, the truth is we *all* benefit from knowing what you truly think about things and what you actually know from experience. It makes me happy to know that when I get an answer from you, it's a straight answer, free from politics. For somebody like me, who just wants to learn because he loves music and the clarinet, one cannot ask for more!
So please keep those posts coming!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-01-13 13:11
One of the earliest messages I posted on the Klarinet e-mail list was a criticism of Tony calling someone an idiot, but over the years, I've come to value his articulateness as much as his musical expertise. I'd hate to see Tony censor himself -- but, luckily for us, I'm pretty sure he ain't gonna! -- and while I'm no fan of gratuitous rudeness, I don't want to see his adversaries muzzled, either. The dialogue often brings out useful information despite the occasional lapse into verbal mooning.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2009-01-13 14:17
I look at all posts with a chance to learn and Evolve.
Mr Dows, Eds, Tony, Ken Shaws, Chris P et all I look at the information to fillin gaps or a chance of improvements.
As Ed mentioned above not all tidbits are best for all players. But one has to take information and see if it works for them (or their students).
The written word unfortunately is full of interpretation and sometimes one's typed info is basically typed wrong. So I've basically learned to ignore any "flame" item and read the information as is.
But I like this board .. full of information and I try to provide "good stuff" from time to time myself.
Keep it up guys
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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