 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 00:44
My daughter is having a hard time in the upper register of her bass clarinet
In her Eccles Sonata in g minor she has high G#, A etc...
She is using a Vandoren #3 reed.
Should she move up to 3.5 or 4
Or another brand reed?
The clarinet is working fine
She is a fine player and has a full open sound in the low register for the most part.
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2008-12-31 00:58
Some bass clarinets are just stuffy up high. In my experience, the larger the reed the more problems with them. Probably more surface area leaves more room for imperfection. For bass I like to soak my reeds for 2 minutes in cold water and then I stick them in a La voz reed holder. If she doesn't have a reed holder she can try to use the plastic case the vandoren reeds come with, although its not as good. It clamps it down and gives it a nice flat surface to take the form of. Bigger reeds seem to warp and need special attention. Don't know if this will help or not, but its a trick that works well for me.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-12-31 04:12
Are you sure the clarinet is working fine? I can't count how many people I've met who think they're bad at something on bass when it is in fact a slight deficiency of the instrument.
After my first bass clarinet overhaul, I was shocked at how easily some things played, and I already considered it to be in pretty good condition.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2008-12-31 05:21
A practical suggestion:
The larger the reed, the less chance of you finding a good one. On Bb soprano, I use cane and I never have any real problem, but on bass clarinet, I use only Legere reeds because I can trust them not to squeak.
They sound great and are a pleasure to play. These canadian reeds are synthethic and come in 1/4 sizes. They are very expensive, but if you take good care of them, they can last a good season. I'll play a dozen concerts and many practices and rehearsals with one.
I recommend you get a Legere #3 bass clarinet or tenor sax reed for your daughter. That's the cheapest way to improve her playing. Next would be a really good mouthpiece, which does not have to cost an arm and a leg. Of course I don't know what her equipment is so it's difficult to recommend a particular mouthpiece.
Mike Blinn
Bass Clarinet
Middletown Symphonic Band, CT
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-12-31 08:54
First of all, that G-sharp is one of the worst notes on any clarinet. It has to do with the acoustical design of the instrument itself. So, it makes a difference whether or not your daughter is having a problem generally in that register or just specifically with that note.
A full sound in the low register of a bass clarinet is relatively easy to produce. The upper register is where the problems usually begin. If the register key is not regulated perfectly, problems will result in the upper register even when the player sounds phenomenal on the lower notes. The vent may not open enough, or it opens too much. If it's an automatic double register vent (two different vent holes with a linkage that lets them be operated with a single thumb key - usually one opens for B, C and D and another one opens higher up when the right hand 4th finger releases its key), the linkage can be out of adjustment and one vent may not be completely shut when the other is open. So, because the bass works well in the lower register, don't rule out a mechanical problem that a skilled tech can fix in a couple of minutes.
Reeds are always a possible culprit, but not a likely one if G-sharp is the only problem note. Reeds are stiffer (not larger) as the number gets higher. A reed that's too stiff will make the upper register difficult to produce, but one that's too soft will tend to close more easily, so it pays, once you've made sure of the mechanical condition, to try different strengths. Not knowing what mouthpiece your daughter is using makes it hard to say whether a #3 is right, because the reed and mouthpiece function together and different mouthpieces have different reed requirements.
Legere reeds, if one works on her mouthpiece, aren't a bad idea because it takes a variable out of the playing process that can be a constant pain. But Legeres don't sound equally good on every mouthpiece. There are other synthetic reeds as well, but your daughter may have to experiment to find the right strength, because, at least in my experience, they don't correspond well to the numbers on cane reeds, which in any case vary from brand to brand.
Good luck.
Karl
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 12:14
Thanks. Her reed is definitely warping a bit.....its like a wavy potato chip on the ends...
I will try this with her
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 12:15
Well, Ive thought of this. Im going to take it to my favorite repair man and have him check it while I wait and am there.
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 12:16
Thanks Mike...Ill try that reed with her
She has 5 weeks until auditions so plenty of time to get used to it.
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 12:19
Thanks Karl...great info.
Im going to print these ideas and bring it to my repair man. He is the old school, small shop owner and if I go at the right time of the day and no one is there he will repair it right in front of me!
Thanks
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-31 12:27
This probably goes without saying, and I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence, but your daughter does keep several reeds ready to play and rotate among them, doesn't she? Especially for auditions and performances, it's always a good idea to have several primo reeds in top-notch playing condition at all times, just in case! Your posts almost led me to think that she plays all the time on one particular reed, which is not a particularly good idea.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-31 12:36
Some things can affect the upper (clarion) register (or parts of it). In random order:
1. The instrument design. Some bass clarinets are built in a way that some notes in the clarion are more difficult than others (which ones can depend on the model). Some models with two register vents are better but not neceesarily (I've played double register bass clarinets with worse response of clarion notes than some single reg vent clarinets).
2. Equipment. Too hard reed can make response of some clarion notes a little "slugish". Too soft reeds can also create response problems with even the slightest extra pressure. It is possible to play all notes with a little too hard to soft setup, but the best strength reed for the player and mouthpiece will help. The mouthpiece can also make a difference. It's not a huge issue, and in reality almost any mouthpiece is ok and will allow to play the entire range, but it is possible to find a mouthpiece that will make this more difficult.
3. Ability to play the notes. It takes practice and it's more difficult to play this range than the low range.
4. Instrument condition. No matter how good the player is, and how good the equipment, a leak in a strategic place, or out of adjustment register mechanism can make some notes impossible.
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2008-12-31 12:43
Without trying the instrument I would have no way to diagnose the problem. However, it is important to remember that the Bass Clarinet is not a Bb clarinet. It is a different animal and certain ways of playing the Bb clarinet simply do not work on the Bass.
Enough said.
Happy New Year to all.
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 13:22
This probably goes without saying, and I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence, but your daughter does keep several reeds ready to play and rotate among them, doesn't she? Especially for auditions and performances, it's always a good idea to have several primo reeds in top-notch playing condition at all times, just in case! Your posts almost led me to think that she plays all the time on one particular reed, which is not a particularly good idea.
Jeff
"My Mama always told me, 'Life is like a box of Vandorens; you never quite know what you're gonna get.'" Forrest Stadler
YES
I bought her a whole box of Vandoren #3 bass clarinet reeds
So we are trying them all out....she is on her 3rd one and still the same.
I played it (Im a pretty good player etc) and I DO think its ALL of the factos being mentioned
Reed, experience, mouthpiece, instrument.....so Im going at if from all the angles...
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-31 14:39
Reed: Legere #3; Mouthpiece: Pomarico Jazz model #1, Grabner LB or Selmer C*; Result: clarion register speaks easier, especially G#5 & A5.
FWIW: my clarinet is a double octave low C model but the above set up(s) should also help with any low Eb model bass clarinet (expecially one with the double octave mechanizm).
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-31 15:18
I teach bass clarinet to many clarinet players both pro's as well as students. The reason many pros come to me when they are trying to "learn" how to play the bass is that they have problems "voicing" this register. From the G above the staff to the C a 4th higher is entirely different from playing a clarinet. The register has to be voiced much differently as your daughter is discovering. Yes, a poor reed will make it more difficult but it's still a problem. In short, I try to get players to voice much lower in that register, really open their throat so they are playing like the 12ths below. I have them play 12th, from low C to the G, C# to G# etc. and encourage them not to change their tongue or throat position when going to the upper note. It's slightly different for every player of course so it's not so simple to explain it with out being there but that's the basic way I teach it, and I'm very successful at it. I also encourage them to loosen their embouchure somewhat to relax, but not so much as to play out of tune. It's always a difficult problem even with a good reed and good instrument. Some students pick it up quickly others take a longer time to control that register. I almost gave up the bass clarinet in my student days because of it until I took lessons and my bass teacher, Joe Allard, told me it was my instrument and not me, so I sold my "student" model and bought a Selmer. Good luck with it, ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
LIsten to a little Mozart, Live performance, not on the bass.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-12-31 22:57)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-12-31 19:55
I've spent a lot of time in the past weeks trying to get a very old Noblet bass clarinet playing well. In the process I've dealt with just about every maladjustment I can think of.
One of my issues has been seating and adjustments relating to the thumb plateau key. Particularly when supporting the instrument only with a peg, there's a tendency to apply less force with the thumb when the force is not reacted by the fingers of the right hand, as well as the left. The use of the octave key in addition makes this problem worse. It may help to add some lower right hand fingers to help pull back on the instrument, but the bottom line is that the thumb key has to be adjusted to function with the smallest possible amount of pressure.
On my instrument, with the octave key open, the thumb has to do three things at once, close the thumb hole, close the key under the A lever, and close the Bb key. If the thumb isn't firmly depressed, a lot of bad things happen. (On this bass, the octave key is switched between the register vent and the Bb vent by the opening and closing of the thumb plateau.)
Hope this helps, and Happy New Year to all,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2008-12-31 20:43
Author: 78s2CD (---.tcsn.qwest.net - ISP in Sonoita, AZ United States)
Date: 2008-12-31 19:55
I've spent a lot of time in the past weeks trying to get a very old Noblet bass clarinet playing well. In the process I've dealt with just about every maladjustment I can think of.
One of my issues has been seating and adjustments relating to the thumb plateau key. Particularly when supporting the instrument only with a peg, there's a tendency to apply less force with the thumb when the force is not reacted by the fingers of the right hand, as well as the left. The use of the octave key in addition makes this problem worse. It may help to add some lower right hand fingers to help pull back on the instrument, but the bottom line is that the thumb key has to be adjusted to function with the smallest possible amount of pressure.
On my instrument, with the octave key open, the thumb has to do three things at once, close the thumb hole, close the key under the A lever, and close the Bb key. If the thumb isn't firmly depressed, a lot of bad things happen. (On this bass, the octave key is switched between the register vent and the Bb vent by the opening and closing of the thumb plateau.)
Hope this helps, and Happy New Year to all,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"Does nothing in particular, and does it very well."
Yes this helps...I thought about this and wondered....but I dont know how to make that adjustment professionaly....Since Im a band director Ive learned some tricks through trial and error but I dont want to screw anything up if its like threading a needle.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-12-31 22:45
The bass clarinet is an incredibly complex rube goldberg machine. I've watched (very good) techs adjusting half the keys on the instrument in order to get a single key to open and close just right. If you breathe on it wrong, it may very well go out of adjustment.
That said, a bass clarinet that's in proper adjustment is a glorious thing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-12-31 23:11
Alex,
I couldn't agree more. But, if you like the complexity of the (low Eb) bass clarinet you'd love the basset horn. On my Leblanc the right thumb low C key has to simultaneously drop the six bottom pads. There's not a screw adjustment on any of them, so it's all in the pads and shims. It took me many hours to get that right! It helped a lot that the horn was in very nice shape to begin with. (Not so with my bass.)
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2009-01-07 14:02
Okay update
I sent my daughters instrument to the shop.
THe repair said.
Its had a bunch of leaks, and needed some reseating of pads, a few bent keys...and
"You realize this is the beginning line Bundy bass clarinet dont you? If your daughter is playing a level 5 solo like the Ecclese she might want to get a better instrument"
Well, I contacted the high school band director and this IS the best one they have!!!!
So, Im on the lookout for a great deal on a wooden or intermediate level instrument.
Im not saying my daughter cant improve her embouchure and playing Im just saying PART of the mystery is solved.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-01-07 15:08
You certainly cannot improve your embouchure on a defective instrument
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Author: tkillian
Date: 2009-01-09 00:59
Well my daughter got the "new improved" clarinet back today she is still squeaking although the bottom register is better.
So Im going to
1. Try the Leger reeds...2.5 and 3
2. Get a better mouthpiece...
3. Try to get her a lesson with a pro
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