 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-29 13:43
Woody Allen has been playing clarinet for many years and is a devotee of the "original" New Orleans sound. Last I heard he still performs with his band every Saturday night in NYC....where his playing is loved. If anyone has viewed his documentary film "Wild Man Blues" you will realize that his style of playing is not sophisticated. Nor is it intended to be. Personally I enjoy his playing even when he's having reed problems. In his way Woody has done much to spread the appreciation of music just as the gentleman who recently conducted the Mahler.....both men having made their principal life success in other fields.
Bob Draznik
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-29 15:09
Well, GBK, that vid was made in 2006--Woody has had two whole years to "Woodshed" and improve his technique. Let's give the filmaker a break here...........after all, tis the Season of miracles.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-12-29 17:12
Woody Allen did famously say, "Eighty percent of life is just showing up."
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2008-12-29 18:16)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-29 19:07
>Well, GBK, that vid was made in 2006--Woody has had two whole years to >"Woodshed" and improve his technique. Let's give the filmaker a break >here...........after all, tis the Season of miracles.
He's been playing clarinet for decades. When will the miracle happen? I would guess he got the standing O because he's Woody Allen, and not for his musicianship.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-12-29 19:13
A better representation from some years back...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ2jGywOhfk&feature=related
This style of jazz is not my 'cup of tea,' just thought I'd look for a better recording of Woody
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Neil
Date: 2008-12-30 04:43
Perhaps Woody, in his Zelig persona, should hang out with GBK for a month or so.
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Author: old john
Date: 2008-12-30 10:23
What a disapoinment to read such 'judgement of Woody Allen's playing.
He plays. He enjjoys. Get off your high hat GBK.
Surrey, BC
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-12-30 11:26
Hi Old John,
I'll excuse your personal assault on GBK and attribute your lack of tact to being new. You would be wise to get some lessons from someone as skilled in all venues on sax, clarinet, and flute as GBK. You better check his resume before making any more such statements.
You have much to learn, grasshopper.
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-30 12:16
What's with the smart aleky comment about Poland......grow up.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-30 12:30
Maybe the country where chris moffatt is from doesn't have chairs, so he was wondering if Poland was the same.
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Author: old john
Date: 2008-12-30 13:28
Having skill does not give one the right to put down others. Many new players read these comments.
It is encouragement not ridicule that helps people improve.
Surrey, BC
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-12-30 14:29
old john wrote:
> What a disapoinment to read such 'judgement of Woody Allen's playing.
> He plays. He enjjoys. Get off your high hat GBK.
Any musician who performs in public for a fee, or charges money for admission, falls into the category of being a professional at his craft, whether it be an instrumentalist, singer or conductor, and hence, should be judged by the professional standards of others in that field.
Woody Allen, while a noted film maker (a "professional" at that craft, if you will) however, fails miserably as a jazz clarinetist when compared to others of the same.
Does he enjoy what he is doing? No doubt.
Do others enjoy it? Many do.
Do I have to? No.
I've heard Woody Allen play numerous times over the past 15 years to see if any improvement has been made. While he no doubt is having a good time playing, his growth as a musician has not happened.
Listening to a horrid tone and childlike, simplistic attempts at improvisation is not something I would go out of my way to hear, let alone spend money on.
I have enough 8th grade students who play better, are trying seriously to improve and do not have the ego to masquerade as a "professional".
...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-30 14:34
Cheers, David...
"Maybe the country where chris moffatt is from doesn't have chairs, so he was wondering if Poland was the same."
Well, of course, that's it; how stupid of me not to consider that possibility. Do you suppose Chopin played piano standing up....duh.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-30 14:46
"Having skill does not give one the right to put down others. Many new players read these comments.
It is encouragement not ridicule that helps people improve."
Hi John and welcome to the best Bulletin Board on the Internet. I can assure you that there was no put down intended as the Co-Moderator of the Board is a gentleman par excellance, as you will discover for yourself if you stick around.
If you follow all of the posts daily you will find out that sometimes new posts have a relevance to prior ones. Best Wishes Bob, age 79
Bob Draznik
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Author: old john
Date: 2008-12-30 15:08
Thanks, Bob.
I did sound off however I do not consider my commonts tactless I did take the time to read the bios of GDK and H. Leher. I also did a decade of airtime with maritime paatrol. Rad nav
However, I spent quite a bit of my life as an activity worker with the mentally challenged.
I suppose it hit a nerve when GDK took that swipe at Allen.
I have 'fooled around' with music all my life. It has been the learning and appreciating the achievement that has helped me to keep a serene, reasonably happy life.
Thank you for your note and a Happy New Year to you all.
John Lyons
Surrey, BC
Post Edited (2008-12-30 15:38)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-12-30 16:19
John,
I'm not sure that I understand the comment about working with the mentally challenged. Is that germane to what we are talking about.
IMHO you were tactless in your comment to GBK (an ad hominem argument). Talk about the issues (Woody Allen's playing) and not Glenn's comment, please.
Yes, you did "sound off" and an apology is now your best move. You will find people on this BB very accepting of humility.
HRL
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-30 16:30
"I've heard Woody Allen play numerous times over the past 15 years to see if any improvement has been made. While he no doubt is having a good time playing, his growth as a musician has not happened."
Well said, GBK--and for the record, I have never liked his movies all that much either.
Happy New Year, all.......
"Hippo mouth"
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Author: old john
Date: 2008-12-30 16:36
While working with the mentally challenged, positive, constructive comments rather than ridicule was encouraged. The idea of someone of GDB's stature pointing out the less than perfect playing of Woody Allen, is indicating his reproof of one simply playing for the enjoyment of the instrument. I play music for the enjoyment it gives to me.
As to the argument being invalid,I do not agree. If anything your comment is ad hominum as the discussion is not about Allen's playing rather it is about the sadness of a well known musician deriding someone who is attempting to give pleasure to others as well as himself.
I find your speaking for the others on the board as being presumptuous. Happy now?)
This will be my laat transmission.
Surrey, BC
Post Edited (2008-12-30 17:47)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-30 17:04
THe comments would only be "presumteous" or mean-spirited if Allen were simply playing music for the love of it, as many of us do. However, as he is charging admission to play before audiences in public venues, he is holding himself up to a higher standard.
As mentioned above by others, I also am not a big Allen fan, either of his films or his music. Some people like that stuff, but the music, at least, falls well short of professional in quality.
Your comment about encouraging those with disabilities is right on. I work every day with students at my college who need extra help and encouragement to keep progressing through difficult pathways, in spite of their chalenges. However, the only way we might liken Allen's situation to that of the challenged or disabled would be to state that either his clarinet playing is flawed due to a disability, or that his disability lies in his capacious ego.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-12-30 17:17
You're right, John. I should have said "I have always found people on this BB very accepting of humility."
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-12-30 18:15
Look at it this way: Whatever his motives may be, Allen is de facto using his star status as a movie producer to bring in paying customers, who might otherwise be paying to hear some other player who is less financially fortunate and probably a far better musician. I will side with GBK on this one. If Allen wants to play for free, more power to him. But when he plays a club for money, whether he realizes it or not (or cares), he's hurting someone else's livelihood.
On a more elitist note, I feel about his playing the way I feel about Kenny G being associated by much of the music-ignorant public as "the" jazz saxophonist -- it's an embarrassing indication of the poor taste and lack of musical education of the American public, and ultimately it's detrimental to the rest of us musicians.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-30 18:37
I am a fan of (most of) Woody Allen's movies, and I find his comedy writing over many, many years absolutely brilliant. I don't admire his clarinet playing, but at least he has the good sense to surround himself with accomplished jazz musicians.
I think his relationship with his step-daughter is reprehensible, but I try not to let that color my enjoyment of his true contributions to our culture. Richard Wagner was no saint, either.
Where I do part company with my admiration for Woody's genius, is a scene in "Wild Man Blues" where he visits the Buffet usine and is allowed to play a vintage metal Albert clarinet in their museum. His crass efforts to buy the instrument reinforce all of the "ugly American" stereotypes that help explain why so many French people are not fond of us. To Buffet's eternal credit, they turned down his insistent overtures!
Happy New Year all!
Larry Bocaner
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-30 19:55
LarryBocaner wrote:
>> Where I do part company with my admiration for Woody's genius, is a scene in "Wild Man Blues" where he visits the Buffet usine and is allowed to play a vintage metal Albert clarinet in their museum. His crass efforts to buy the instrument reinforce all of the "ugly American" stereotypes that help explain why so many French people are not fond of us. To Buffet's eternal credit, they turned down his insistent overtures!>>
Don't know about this; but I did talk to the Buffet rep and technician who was involved with Buffet-Crampon making two copies of Woody's clarinet to replace his clapped-out one.
Apparently he flew over to Paris to pick one -- and then took both of them.
Tony
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-30 21:00
Well, at least all these opinions take the heat off of Mr.Acker Bilk....for awhile.
Bob Draznik
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-30 21:17
David S. You mentioned the KG personage. I thought swearing would be inappropriate on a family-oriented BB like this one. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-12-30 21:31
Wow, that clip is AWFUL. I listened to a couple of the other Woody clips in the YouTube stream, and they're better (marginally) but I've heard all the Woody I want to, thanks much, so I won't be investigating his clarinet oevre further. (Now I have to go check the link about the standing ovation, though--what could it have been for? Did he play underwater or something?)
I'm all for celebs bringing people into the tent, however, who wouldn't otherwise enter it (and for people to pay perhaps in the low three figures apiece in the Cafe Carlyle to hear a decent dixieland band, even if the clarinet player's a little rough--that's some tent).
That's what I enjoy about this BBoard--in the same week, I get to know Anat Cohen AND Woody Allen, clarinetistically speaking.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-12-30 21:59
Woody does a great job of making everyone else feel good about their playing. I love him. Finally I'm a virtuoso. I actually am a fan and tried to find some youtube examples of the genre that he is dealing with.....very earthy, original, unschooled, natural, New Orleans jazz. Unfortunately I couldn't come up with anything as earthy and as unschooled as his playing so there goes that. I will say that I like his playing in small doses. He taps his foot and leg like there's no tommorrow. If he tries to play the Mozart concerto I really want to be at that concert. Happy New Year
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2008-12-31 01:06)
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-12-30 22:10
I don't know how much Mr. Allen gets paid for his clarinet gigs, but, I would guess that the people who play with him don't mind the people coming through the door to hear the film maker play. I would guess it is a sure gig with sure money.
I'm wondering, how many of the readers hear go out to hear live music. In my experience, classical players do. Jazz players, rock, r&b etc, consistently gripe about not enough places to play, but don't go out and hear other musicians themselves. ( I have played clubs for a living most of my life, and I confess that I'm guilty. I rarely go out and here anything but classical or new music anymore).
Anyway, Mr. Allen is keeping at least a few traditional jazz players working.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-30 22:17
There is that (the issue about the pro musicians having a gig). I try to make as many live performances as time and finances allow. There's nothing quite like being there to see and hear the actual performance. It's also nice to chat with the performers as circumstances allow. That's how I got to meet Les Paul in Greenwich Village once a number of years ago.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-12-31 00:01
Arnold,
"If he tries to play the Mozart concerto I really want to be at that concert." That is priceless. I'll even buy your ticket so you can report back to the BB.
Still LOL,
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-12-31 00:15
Arnoldstang wrote:
> If he (Woody Allen) tries to play the Mozart concerto
> I really want to be at that concert.
Woody Allen and Mozart do not even belong in the same sentence. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
...GBK
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-12-31 00:18
Would you even be allowed to charge money for those tickets?
...maybe if it were advertised as stand-up comedy.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-31 12:35
I sure can't! The fact that he is half as old as I am is rather annoying, too!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-12-31 12:45
Also, it WAS Poland--not one of your A-list tour destinations, as far as I know. I think the standing O was basically for showing up.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-12-31 20:11
GBK-
"Listening to a horrid tone and childlike, simplistic attempts at improvisation is not something I would go out of my way to hear, let alone spend money on. "
I listened to a few clips on youtube and I notice that his sound is very very consistant. Seems to me that his tone is not a mistake; it is what he wants. For the type of music he is playing, can you say that his tone does not fit?
Post Edited (2008-12-31 20:39)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-31 20:52
I didn't care for the one clip GBK posted (sounded like Woody had a bad night and a bad reed), but on the whole his tone quality is not too unusual for New Orleans-style jazz. Listen to some old recordings of the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, and you'll see what I mean.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2008-12-31 21:20
"Sweet and Low Down" was IMHO a much better movie and had much better clarinet playing. I believe Ken Peplowski was credited with the clarinet parts?
Ah, that's "Sweet and Lowdown" (one word) in case anyone is trying to look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_and_Lowdown
Steve Epstein
Post Edited (2008-12-31 21:47)
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-12-31 21:35
"I listened to a few clips on youtube and I notice that his sound is very very consistant. Seems to me that his tone is not a mistake; it is what he wants. For the type of music he is playing, can you say that his tone does not fit?"
GBK said...
"Does he enjoy what he is doing? No doubt.
Do others enjoy it? Many do.
Do I have to? No."
"I didn't care for the one clip GBK posted (sounded like Woody had a bad night and a bad reed), but on the whole his tone quality is not too unusual for New Orleans-style jazz. Listen to some old recordings of the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, and you'll see what I mean."
Professional players, as Allan is marketing himself as, are held to a higher standard and a bad reed is no excuse. I wouldn't want to listen to a professional player cannot keep A good reed to perform on.
and again...
"Does he enjoy what he is doing? No doubt.
Do others enjoy it? Many do.
Do I have to? No."
Nobody HAS to enjoy it.
I support anybody who plays because they love it...if I didn't love playing the clarinet, I wouldn't! Maybe Allan should reconsider what he does with the money he earns from playing and donate it, if he doesn't already. I would no problems with that.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-01-01 05:04
>> Also, it WAS Poland--not one of your A-list tour destinations, as far as I know.
How far do you know?! If you are basing that on the many jokes about Polish then remember they are as racist as they are funny....
Sure, in some ways Poland is not as developed as SOME countries, but in many ways it is, especially cultural things like music. The jazz level there is VERY high and "as far as I know" there is a lot of it. This is what I remember from several articles (on our local news) about Polish jazz. I think they did this when some Polish jazz players came to play here.
A couple of years ago I went to play in a former USSR country (not Poland) with a trio. The other members of trio thought it would be as bad as one experience they had in another country is that general area. Actually this former USSR country turned out to be one of my favorite places I've ever been to, and theirs too, and was very "Western". Reminded me of other countries in Western Europe in many ways. There was nothing there that implied less than "A-list".
Unless someone really knows, as far as they know can be not fat at all...
Post Edited (2009-01-01 05:04)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-01-01 14:38
No, it was Poland (per the link) but you're right about everything else in your post. I just meant that countries like Poland have always been a lot more enthusiastic about American music and a celeb like Woody Allen showing up would be a much bigger deal than here in the States (the jazz level there is indeed very high, as you say). (AND, mistakenly or not, Warsaw might not be thought of as high-profile a gig as, say, Cannes, Spoleto, London, or Paris--but that's arguable, of course).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-01-01 16:05
>> No, it was Poland (per the link) but you're right about everything else in your post.
I know it was Poland in the link and I never said it wasn't, so I'm not sure what you mean.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2009-01-02 01:53
Seems Woody likes older clarinets. In the pic he is playing an Albert system Bb with the wrap around register key.
Regards
Mark
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-02 04:45
Perhaps the standing ovation was as a result of the music actually having stopped.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-01-02 09:10
As much as I hate to see us bashing popular players, Woody does strike a nerve with me. I also hate arguing about our rules of arguing, but the video of the Bennett kid was worth reading the entire thread. If we have to have 150 posts on this thread, I think I'd like to get GBK's poetic motor running.
ODE TO WOODY
His whole persona's kinda creepy
And his improv always makes me sleepy.
But all that stuff he blows and blows
Is just too harsh to let me doze.
It might just be satire, but why can't that devil
Seek Homer and Jethro's musicianship level?
I'd like to make that wild man blue
By spiking his Chapstick with Krazy Glue
...the gaunlet's down, GBK. Release those inner demons. (Heck, it's a lot cheaper than Scientology)
Allen Cole
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-02 12:20
In Poland, he's a sensation.
In fact - a standing ovation.
Success without practice
Stings me like a cactus
'Cause the rest of us toil in frustration.
...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-01-02 12:42
When Woody grabs up his old axe
His sound stops me right in my tracks
I cover my ears
But the sound still appears
Like a chain saw cutting at max
HRL
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-02 12:59
His movies are subtle and funny,
but his playing is neither -- it stinks.
I hope he continues film-making,
but best quit the playing, methinks!
ds
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-01-02 18:31
This'll get thrown back in our faces for years to come, but right now it feels soooo good.
Cigarette anyone?
Allen Cole
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-03 08:29
GBK's limerick states: ''Success without practice
Stings me like a cactus''.
I gather, from the reading of a Woody interview in a jazz magazine, he actually practices quite diligently. In the interview, for example, he states the constant frustration of having to practice in hotels. If that's not dedication.........well.......I'll be.....
So, success he has, and practice he does..............however talent may be another issue altogether.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-01-03 14:29
"I gather, from the reading of a Woody interview in a jazz magazine, he actually practices quite diligently."
I guess he has to work really hard to sound that way. ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-03 23:27
skygardner wrote: ''What about...''
The number was played in C concert, on a Albert system instrument and at a rapid tempo of about 240 bpm. This quite challenging and I say from experience.
JJAlbrecht says: ''I guess he has to work really hard to sound that way''
I know you mean this as a gag (possibly). My point is that he may not be as gifted as some of our correspondents (not for me to say really).
I have heard only a few recordings and some of the Youtube stuff, some of it is fairly average and some quite good like the aforementioned version of My Old Kentucky Home. I have not seen a live performance by WA but I think, if he visited Australia, I'd pay the money as he plays the music I am most interested in.
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-04 04:18
David Spiegelthal states:
''Look at it this way: Whatever his motives may be, Allen is de facto using his star status as a movie producer to bring in paying customers, who might otherwise be paying to hear some other player who is less financially fortunate and probably a far better musician. I will side with GBK on this one. If Allen wants to play for free, more power to him. But when he plays a club for money, whether he realizes it or not (or cares), he's hurting someone else's livelihood.''
I assume you can read WA's mind when you mention motives. To me it seems to be a confusing sentence, firstly you write ''whatever his motives...'' then you go on to state categorically that WA is ''....de facto using his star status...''. In which way should one read this? Do you know his motives or are you guessing?
It is quite obvious that his 'star status' will draw in paying customers and what's wrong with that? I personally know a few people who know practically nothing at all about jazz and have attended his performances in this New York club in recent times. Perhaps they will have come out of the club with some newly acquired appreciation of the music, and will search out other bands to listen to and watch them perform a unique musical style. I have not met up with any of them lately to know their final impressions, but is not an unlikely eventuality for one or two of them to have been so inspired.
I believe that WA and his personal performances have been somewhat taken out of context, as New Orleans style jazz is more about ensemble playing rather than emphasising the soloist. Since my last posting I have viewed more Youtube videos and I would be confident in stating that the group is, collectively, extremely competent. It's not a note and pitch perfect classical ensemble by any means as it is not meant to be other than a swinging dance band and in this regards it succeeds admirably. It seems that WA is being singled out for attention unnecessarily.
I don't know the history of the New York job at all, but it's conceivable that WA secured the gig based on his perceived ability and star status and perhaps some notoriety even, who knows really? I don't know the facts, so enlighten me if you have some inside knowledge.
It's a long straw to draw I feel, for you to imagine ''he's hurting someone else's livelihood'' when the possibility exists that this particular band job may well have not been in the offing were it not for WA. How do you know he is taking work from another player? Is WA not enhancing the employment opportunities for his sidemen? Why do you think he should offer his services for free anyway - would you, were you in his position?
Clearly, many people listen to WA for a variety of reasons and surely some of those reasons are not necessarily for the music's sake - so what? It keeps this valid folk music in the public arena nonetheless and that is a good outcome.
I believe I detect some envy from a few of the correspondents to the post - in Australia we refer to this as the ''tall poppy syndrome''. There are almost limitless ways of playing a clarinet folks, ranging from the lofty note-perfect, thoroughly schooled variety to the simple, self taught, down-home variety - one is no better than another, so if you don't like his playing, then just don't listen.
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Author: smoreno
Date: 2009-01-04 07:59
haha. that video was delightful. I never knew Wood Allen played clarinet...
I must say, after watching that I'm happy he makes a living filmmaking though. :P
I kid, I kid! I for one am not extremely familiar with the New Orleans playing style, so I won't begin to judge it. I'm happy that he enjoys the clarinet so much, and plays for his own enjoyment. It's a great reminder of the passion and delight music can evoke in people Sometimes we forget with all our diligent practice and study.
Post Edited (2009-01-04 08:05)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-01-04 13:32
Ned, you make some good points, and maybe my posting was the result of "gig envy" -- entirely possible. But the bottom line (in my humble, under-educated and envious opinion) is that there are too few gigs out in the world today, and too many really good musicians starving for gigs, for a player of WA's caliber to (a) get the gig in the first place; and (b) get media attention for it. Sorry, but it really rubs me the wrong way when incompetence, for any reason, is rewarded. And here in the U.S. we're masters of rewarding incompetence, are we not? ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-01-04 15:00
I guess none of us knows "why" Woody went to Warsaw in the first place or why he continued on to Prague. My impression is that he didn't "get" the gig, he created it just as he did his previous Paris "gig". I have studied Picasso's paintings and often wondered why he didn't learn to paint like Rembrandt.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-01-04 15:46
DS,
I've heard your bari work and you are in no way musically under-educated. And you are a "rocket scientist."
One point that seems to be missed is that WA has surrounded himself with good musicians. It's pretty hard to look bad. That's an old trick many of the big band leaders would do; check out Pete Barbuti's bit where he does the band leader playing the 4th trumpet part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJBggMTZI7w
Check out the foot tapping. Look familiar?
HRL
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2009-01-04 16:09
You guys are really hard on poor Woody...I shudder to think what you might have to say about Yanni, John Tesh....
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes. Tony Pay mentions Woody went to Paris to replace his "clapped out" clarinet. What's a "clapped out clarinet?" Isn't it grand to be able to fly to Paris and pick up a couple of specially made clarinets?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-01-04 18:22
Hi Old Geezer,
I'm not sure that I get the "sour grapes" comment.
Several of us that have commented in this thread are pretty experienced players with lots of gigs, shows, concerts, solo appearances, and the like on our resumes. At my age, having to not travel to Paris is a bigger reward.
If you think I am envious about being able to pick out clarinets in Paris, I play a Yamaha CS Custom and my R13 is collecting dust.
HRL
BTW, I think John Tesh is a good musician and he puts on a great show, Acher Bilk really made the clarinet more popular a few decades ago, and Woody Allen has always been a really terrific comedian.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2009-01-04 20:01
People that use their celebrity, power, or money to make up for talent and skill will never get my support. I do not really care if they bring awareness to N.O. jazz or a Mahler symphony or whatever else they "perform." I love Allen's movies, but his clarinet playing is painful.
Here's some N.O. style jazz that I could listen to all day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MUwb3eNZzE
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2009-01-04 21:48
In view of the argument regarding proper decorum/discourse on the Pay/Palanker post, I'd like to know why this Woody Allen post hasn't been closed?
In particular, to quote from this BB's rules:
"The rules are set up to respect people, companies, and property."
"Discuss the question/answer, NOT THE PERSON"
Now, here are some excerpts from the Woody Allen post:
"Listening to a horrid tone and childlike, simplistic attempts at improvisation is not something I would go out of my way to hear, let alone spend money on."
"I have enough 8th grade students who play better, are trying seriously to improve and do not have the ego to masquerade as a "professional"
"On a more elitist note, I feel about his playing the way I feel about Kenny G being associated by much of the music-ignorant public as "the" jazz saxophonist -- it's an embarrassing indication of the poor taste and lack of musical education of the American public"
"Woody Allen and Mozart do not even belong in the same sentence."
"Perhaps the standing ovation was as a result of the music actually having stopped."
...and then there are all of the WA limericks, e.g., Ode to Woody ("His whole persona's kinda creepy...")
Are these kind of remarks not disrespectful? Aren't such examples explicitly -- and negatively -- discussing the person, a clear violation of the rules? Why have these comments been allowed to be posted. Seems like there's a bit of either inconsistent moderating, hypocrisy, or a double-standard going on.
Joe
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-01-04 22:01
Chalumeau Joe wrote:
> In view of the argument regarding proper decorum/discourse on
> the Pay/Palanker post, I'd like to know why this Woody Allen
> post hasn't been closed?
>
> In particular, to quote from this BB's rules:
>
> "The rules are set up to respect people, companies, and
> property."
>
> "Discuss the question/answer, NOT THE PERSON"
> > Are these kind of remarks not disrespectful? Aren't such
> examples explicitly -- and negatively -- discussing the person,
> a clear violation of the rules? Why have these comments been
> allowed to be posted. Seems like there's a bit of either
> inconsistent moderating, hypocrisy, or a double-standard going
> on.
>
> Joe
"..."Discuss the question/answer, NOT THE PERSON"..."
This thread HAS been discussing the question and answer.
The "person" refers to the one MAKING the posting, not the "person" (the subject of the thread) who people have chosen to give their opinions on. - GBK
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-04 22:07
brycon wites:
''Here's some N.O. style jazz that I could listen to all day:''
It's brilliant music without a doubt and I like it immensely - it's not what I'd call New Orleans jazz though.
Without wanting to open up a musical can of worms, I'd say this performance was more inspired by Django Reinhardt and the Hot Club of France with Ken Peplowski replacing the violin - both soloists are putting forward virtuoso performances.
I don't think New Orleans was necessarily on the minds of any of the players at the time.
Hank Lehrer says:
''One point that seems to be missed is that WA has surrounded himself with good musicians.''
I rather thought I had covered that point with this: ''I would be confident in stating that the group is, collectively, extremely competent.''. Further to this I'd suggest that whilst this is true, a really ropey musician will drag a group down to a lower level.
I don't think WA is guilty of this generally speaking, however, whilst GBK's sample of WA's playing is hardly inspiring, the majority of his work is quite good, and I say again it should be borne in mind, New Orleans jazz is jazz for dancing. It is a collective effort and not a collection of virtuosos.
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2009-01-04 22:09
So ad hominem attacks against Woody Allen are OK, but not against other posters.
Thanks for clearing this up.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-01-04 23:14
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a Sax teacher I once had in High School.
I saw some Kenny G books on his table and said, "Kenny G (!?)". His answer was better than any attack of Kenny G that I have ever heard.
He said that so many sax players pick on Kenny G only because he is making a living playing and they are not. And what he does is by no means "bad" music. He performs live music in front of large audiences without losing concentration and, most importantly, he brings happiness into people's lives with his music.
So this teacher bought Kenny G books to learn from. His idea was that a musician's job is to give something to the audience, not satisfy a dead theorist or please the ideals of a professor we had in College that will NOT be at the performance anyway. Any performer that can do that has something we can learn.
Post Edited (2009-01-04 23:34)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2009-01-04 23:21
I have not seen any attacks on Woody Allen as a person: he's a brilliant filmmaker and an artist in this respect, but his clarinet playing is bad.
Ned,
Tiger Rag is so associated with the N.O. tradition that I imagine it was on the minds of the players a good deal. It certainly isn't collective improvisation, but a lot of the vocabulary their playing shows a strong N.O. influence. I agree though that the guitar leads me to think of Django.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2009-01-04 23:37
One more thought:
N.O. Jazz and Swing were certainly the pop music of the day. These genres may have been popular for dancing, but Bebop changed a lot of things. When I go to a club I expect to hear a certain degree of technical proficiency and thoughtful improvisation whether it's N.O. or bop.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-01-05 00:07
I'll readily confess to sour grapes, gig envy and whatever else. I'll even stipulate to the personal attack. Sure his persona's kinda creepy. Just watch him and Soon-Yi in "Wild Man Blues."
But I believe that there is something that sets Woody apart from the usually attack threads on Kenny G. and Richard Stoltzman that I myself protest. That is the deadly combination of Woody's marginal skill level, and the public enthusiasm that he commands. In other words--and I think I probably speak for most of the anti-Woody faction--we get bombarded on a fairly regular basis by people of...er...'limited experience' who want to tells all about Woody and how much they love his playing.
Admittedlly, this isn't all Woody's fault. But I personally tend to link this to the fact that the public sees the instrument and its players as uber-nerds who are limited to playing various types of cartoon music which will never have the combined artistic value of one chorus of "Smoke on the Water."
It's like having someone look at your single daughter and offer to fix her up with some 'lonely' kid who has no job and no hygene. They see it as a nice thing for both parties. As a parent you would probably see it as someone having a horrible perception of your daughter and her prospects.
Well the clarinet is our plain-but-high-quality daughter who isn't dumb, fat, ugly or unkempt. She just doesn't present herself in a flashy way or offer easy pickin's to every guy she meets.
As for Woody himself, I'm glad that he can afford to gig. I do think that he pursues publicity for it more than it pursues him, and that given some of his unusual ways with stepchildren (maybe I'm giving Mia too much credit here) I would rather not see him held up as an example either for accomplishment as a musician or for his lifestyle. (But chances are, of course, that he's the only clarinet player that the average person can name)
So, to wax futher psychological and futher off-topic, maybe we're not really mad at Woody. Maybe we're mad at ourselves for not making our instrument more accessible, or for missing opportunities to bring more showmanship into its performance. And it's not that Woody should be denied the chance to perform due to pedestrian skills. Certainly, I've been featured in any number of situations where a better player could've been found.
But there's a great frustration among many of us who strive in particular to keep the instrument--and our own playing--relevant as time goes on. GBK brought up a subject that irks me, and he was expressing feelings similar to mine. It just felt like a good opportunity to get some release...
Allen Cole
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Author: bbarner
Date: 2009-01-06 15:08
True, he doesn't play like Peplowski or Fountain. But on a good day, he does kinda sound like George Lewis.
Bill Barner
http://www.billbarner.com
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-01-07 00:43
The original thrust of this thread refers to a review of a WA concert and a comparison (presumably) to a flawed WA performance as viewed on Youtube.
I think that this is somewhat unfair, because who of our correspondents, actually witnessed or heard any of this concert in order to make a fair comparison? All we really have is a selection of on-line videos of variable quality, ranging from the lowest (the one selected by GBK) to many others many of which I would describe as quite competent, in the context of the collective improvisatory performance criteria of a N.O. jazz ensemble.
WA is quoted as saying ''We will do our best to entertain you''. He did not go on to say (for example), that we will perform virtuoso solos, dance, juggle or wear funny clothes (as performance enhancers), and one assumes that none of this occurred.
So.......seemingly he kept his promise to entertain, otherwise he and the band, (I assume the audience would have been applauding the six or seven rather than just the one) would not have received a standing ovation. Why particularly would the audience have done this if they were not entertained?
There has been too much of this tendency to ''play the man'' (a pejorative Australian football descriptor) rather than treat the clarinet player Woody Allen, as a member of a collective performing ensemble, and judge him as such.
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The Clarinet Pages
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