 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-12-18 12:00
My friends and I are producing a movie to take place in Russia during the Stalinist period. We want to use music that was written by composers from Russia during that period. Other than Stravinsky, who comes to mind?
Thanks!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-18 12:03
Russian composers living in Russia at that time or living anywhere?
Bob Draznik
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-12-18 12:06
Preferably living in Russia, but really any composers affected by the Stalin regime would be fine.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 12:31
Shostakovich was the great composer of Stalinist Russia.
Prokofiev left and later returned.
Stravinsky and Rachmaninov never lived in Russia under Stalin. The music Stravinsky wrote during the Stalinist period can hardly be described as Russian at all, any more than most of Handel's music can be described as German.
Many many more to trawl through:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Russian_composers
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-12-18 12:47
My bad. I often confuse (not sure why) Stravinsky and Shostakovic. Probably because their names both begin with S. (My mind works in strange ways). Thank you for the information!
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 13:26
"I often confuse (not sure why) Stravinsky and Shostakovic. [sic] Probably because their names both begin with S."
Not in Russian they don't.
Stravinsky begins with an S, which in the Russian alphabet looks like our letter C. (Стравинский)
Shostakovich begins with an Sh, which in the Russian alphabet is a single letter, and looks roughly like a sort of squared-off W. (Шостакович)
If you are making a film about Russia, maybe you should know that?
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 13:36
Larry mentioned Khachaturian.
Khachaturian was not Russian. He was an Armenian, born in Georgia (in the Caucasus, that is, not in the USA). He was a Soviet citizen, but not a Russian.
You need to phrase your question carefully as to whether you are interested in:
1. Russian composers who worked in Russia (e.g. Shostakovich).
2. Russian composers who worked elsewhere (e.g. Rachmaninov).
3. Non-Russian composers who worked in Russia (e.g. Khachaturian).
In a thread some while ago, Larry referred to Khachaturian, while actually meaning Kabalevsky. Sorry, Larry, better luck third time!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-12-18 14:37
Another Soviet composer who was clearly affected by Stalin was Tikhon Khrennikov but, before you use his music, you might want to check out his background.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 14:57
Jack - I assume you are referring to the fact that Tikhon Khrennikov was a communist.
So was Aaron Copland, though he sometimes found it expedient to deny it.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-18 15:50
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> Jack - I assume you are referring to the fact that Tikhon
> Khrennikov was a communist.
>
> So was Aaron Copland, though he sometimes found it expedient to
> deny it.
Although it's well known that Copland supported the Communist Party USA ticket in the 1936 presidential election, Copland never joined the Communist Party, nor, AFAIK, did he denounce his fellow Americans' compositions for not living up to Communist ideals.
Khrennikov, on the other hand, was a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party in the USSR and eventually became a representative in the Supreme Soviet. As Secretary of the Union of Soviet Composers, it was his job to denounce other composers' works not deemed Soviet enough (most famously, those of Shostakovich and Prokofieff).
Not exactly a fair comparison, if you ask me.
Post Edited (2008-12-18 15:51)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 16:34
mrn - no, indeed it isn't a fair comparison.
Khrennikov was a patriot. Copland was a traitor.
Only joking - well, almost only joking. Copland was called before HUAC, after all.
The serious point I was making was that we shouldn't judge whether or not to listen to a composer's music by considering his politics.
Clariknight may want to use Khrennikov's music in his film if it happens to be good music.
He also may want to use it if it happens in some way to be apposite to the action.
I felt that jnk was coming close to implying that one shouldn't use Khrennikov's music, however good or apposite it might be, solely on the grounds that we don't like Khrennikov's politics and/or his morals.
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2008-12-18 17:47
You can't really determine someone's politics based on them being called before HUAC. McCarthyism was rampant and anything that wasn't mainstream would get you called before HUAC and blacklisted. Copland was not a traitor. He was a victim of a right wing conspiracy.
But when it comes to Shostakovich, my favorite of his symphonies is #5, and I am not sure if it is the music, of the sarcastic approach he took to composing it. After all, it isn't typical Shostakovich but it did end the decade ban on his music.
Jonathan Kelly
jkelly32562@troy.edu
Post Edited (2008-12-18 17:48)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-18 17:47
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
<<The serious point I was making was that we shouldn't judge whether or not to listen to a composer's music by considering his politics.>>
I agree completely!
I still think it's helpful to know a bit of historical background about Khrennikov, though, because his more positive relationship with the Soviet authorities makes him different than, say, Shostakovich. I'd hate to see someone get the false impression that Khrennikov was one of these composers who was targeted like Shostakovich was.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-18 18:28
Jonathan Kelly wrote:
<<You can't really determine someone's politics based on them being called before HUAC. McCarthyism was rampant and anything that wasn't mainstream would get you called before HUAC and blacklisted. Copland was not a traitor. He was a victim of a right wing conspiracy.>>
Very true, although what I think Norbert was saying was more of a commentary on the way Copland was treated by the authorities in the USA as compared the way Khrennikov was treated in the USSR.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2008-12-18 20:33
Leaving aside the issue of who was or wasn't a communist, what are the copyright issues involved with music of this period? To whom does one apply to get permission to use this music? Does it make a difference if the film company creates a new recording of a piece, as opposed to using a commercially released one? I'm more interested in the law of today than in the politics of yesteryear.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 20:59
"I'm more interested in the law of today than in the politics of yesteryear."
As the pragmatic response of someone trying to make a film without getting sued, that's an understandable view.
But I hope it doesn't represent your view of the real underlying importance of these subjects. The law of today will change tomorrow. The politics of yesteryear will continue to have lessons for us, for ever and ever.
Henry Ford is supposed to have said "History is bunk." What he actually said was "History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present, and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history that we make today."
He was wrong. If he'd said "Copyright law is bunk" I'd have had more sympathy with him.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-18 21:35
"Khachaturian was not Russian. He was an Armenian, born in Georgia ".
I always wonder about nationalities. I'm under the impression he was born in Russia to Armenian parents. I guess what one is ...is what one says he is. Or what someone else says he is.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-12-18 22:14
First off, thanks for all the wondeful repsonses!
Second, I could care less if someone was a communist or not. I am looking for Soviet composers after all.
Third, we are not worried about copyright laws as this is a small production for a class project (Audio/Video class).
Four, we have an exchnage student from Russia in the class who will help us with Russian background/language. And, as I don't know Russian Norbert, it makes much more sense for me to refer to these composers by their English (albeit probably butchered) translations. I talk about them and write about them with these names, so I'm sorry if I offended you.
Preferably (and this is the best case scenario) we will have six pieces that slowly get more depressing. Thanks once again for all the help, hopefully we can now finish it before the semester ends!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-18 22:34
davyd wrote:
<<Leaving aside the issue of who was or wasn't a communist, what are the copyright issues involved with music of this period?>>
This is an interesting question. Whether something from this period is subject to copyright or not depends on a lot of facts, such as where and when the work was first published, what countries you intend to use the work in, etc. You need to do a thorough investigation of the history of the work and consult a qualified copyright attorney to give you a definitive answer. (Also, what I write here is just for informational purposes--I'm not giving a legal opinion here, so don't rely on what I have to say.)
As it turns out, though, a lot of Soviet works are considered public domain in the U.S. because until 1967 was not a party to any international copyright treaties. You can't blindly rely on this rule, however, because there are a number of pre-1967 Soviet works that *are* under copyright in the U.S.
It was a fairly common practice of Soviet authors in those days to have their works first published in an "international treaty country" (a country that is a party to a copyright treaty the U.S. is also a party to) thereby triggering U.S. protection. Doctor Zhivago is one of these works. Since it was first published in Italy, it enjoys U.S. copyright protection.
Clearly there are some works by the great composers of the Soviet Union that are public domain in the U.S., though. In the 1940s Shostakovich, Prokofieff, Khachaturian, and Miaskovsky brought a lawsuit to enjoin 20th Century Fox from using their music in a film critical of the Soviet Union. Because the works in question were considered public domain in the U.S. and the U.S. does not recognize "moral rights" of composers (as opposed to mere copyright), the court dismissed the case.
Incidentally, the same composers brought the same case in France (which recognizes "moral rights" in addition to copyright) and won there. So that just goes to show you that there are no easy answers to these copyright questions--especially on an international scale.
Post Edited (2008-12-19 00:30)
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2008-12-18 23:48
Nikolai Myaskovsky. Largely unknown and unplayed in the West, he wrote 27 symphonies so you should be able to find music for your film.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-19 02:43
Shostakovich is your best betl because he was considered an icon during world war two and they took great pains to protect him from the Nazis. Don't forget too, he wrote the Leningrad Symphony, #7, describing the time that city was under siege. Great bass clarinet solo in that. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, live performance
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-19 07:43
I wrote:
"Khachaturian was not Russian. He was an Armenian, born in Georgia"
BobD wrote:
"I'm under the impression he was born in Russia to Armenian parents."
In a sense we are both right. And indeed, I didn't say he WASN'T born in Russia.
Khachaturian was born in Georgia at a time when it was part of the Tsarist Russian Empire. Once the Bolsheviks took over, the Russian Empire turned into the USSR, with Russia and Georgia as two of its constituent republics.
At the time of Khachaturian's birth, therefore, his birthplace was in Georgia and in Russia. By the time he grew up, his birthplace was in Georgia but not in Russia.
Khachaturian's birthplace, Tbilisi, known as Tiflis in Russian, is closely associated with Stalin, who was an ethnic Georgian (not a Russian as people often assume). Neither Khachaturian nor Stalin spoke Russian as their first language.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-12-19 12:19
Here are two more composers that you might want to consider.
Veniamin Iossifowitsch Fleishman was a promising young student of Shostakovich. He is best remembered for his short opera, Rothschild's Violin, a work that was ignored for a long time and is now slowly beginning to attract some attention. Fleishman volunteered for military service at the beginning of World War II, and was killed soon after. His opera was incomplete when he died, but Shostakovich completed it and arranged to have it published and performed.
Another composer worthy of mention is Mieczysław Weinberg, and I recently discovered (thanks to this board) that he composed a clarinet sonata. He was also a friend of Shostakovich, and was quite prolific.
I really don't know much about Gliere, but I recently read that he was one of the few composers who was not denounced in 1948.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-12-19 14:55
According to the liner notes for a recording of his first and fourth chamber symphonies, Mieczyslaw Weinberg (Moishei Vainberg) was born in Warsaw. He fled from the Germans to the Soviet Union in 1939. He also wrote a clarinet concerto, recently released on Chandos. His fourth chamber symphony, a rather unusual work (Olympia OCD 651), is for string orchestra and (obbligato) clarinet (and a triangle which plays a total of four notes).
Of my earlier mention of Khrennikov, Norbert the Parrot wrote: "I assume you are referring to the fact that Tikhon Khrennikov was a communist." That's not what I was referring to at all. I was actually referring to his controversial tenure as Secretary General of the Union of Soviet Composers. If the movie makers are looking for composers who were impacted adversely by the Stalin regime, he would not qualify. Next time don't ass/u/me, ask.
Here are a few more to consider. Boris Tchaikovsky, born in Moscow in 1925, has had a number of his works recorded recently. (He can win you money at parties betting against clarinerds who will assure you there is no Tchaikovsky Clarinet Concerto -- though it's more like a concertino.) Lev Knipper (born in Georgia when it was part of Russia) was also a prolific composer who seems to have thrived under Stalin (per Wikipedia he was an OGPU-NKVD secret agent as well as a prolific composer). His works also include a clarinet concerto, recorded on a Melodiya LP. Nikolai Rakov also comes to mind.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-20 11:42
Being a rather poor student of the Russian language I've long wondered if the
"Chai"kovsky name had an origin related to drinking tea.
Bob Draznik
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2008-12-20 22:04
Norbert wrote:
The serious point I was making was that we shouldn't judge whether or not to listen to a composer's music by considering his politics.
I'm in complete agreement with Norbert here. I first encountered this in high school, when an Israeli musician walked off the stage during a Wagner selection.
People need to learn to separate music from politics. Whatever your poliltical bent, there are going to be composers diametrically opposed who you would find personally offensive. Music is supposed to be above that.
Here's an extreme example. There is a rather prominent clarinet teacher in the Houston area who spends a lot of time during lessons proselytizing students about his particular brand of Christianity. As long as the students and parents don't mind, it's not that big of a problem. However, he also refuses to teach his clarinet students Mozart because, in his view, Mozart wasn't a good enough Christian. That's musical malpractice!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-12-21 02:40
Seems to me, in a free society, people have a right to select the music they listen to (and perform) as well as the music they avoid for any reason they choose.
jnk
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-21 05:34
Did Khatchaturian ever receive royalties from the songs 'Can't Take My Eyes Off You', 'If' (If a picture paints a thousand words, then why can't I paint you?) and 'Save Your Kisses For Me' as they blatantly ripped off 'Adagio of Spartacus and Phrygia'?
I heard he got bugger all from the BBC when they used it as the theme tune to 'The Onedin Line'.
And all these were done while he was still with us.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-21 17:35
Jack wrote "Seems to me, in a free society, people have a right to select the music they listen to (and perform) as well as the music they avoid for any reason they choose."
As it happens, I agree with you. But we both need to realise that that freedom has some consequences that may be unpopular.
For example, it follows from your statement that it would be OK for an orchestra to have a policy of not playing music written by Blacks, Jews and Women.
Is that what you meant to say?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-12-22 02:09
To be honest, Norbert, I was thinking more in terms of individual rights. I really hadn't considered extending the idea to institutionalization. But if, in a free society, an organization wanted to adopt such a policy, I expect they would be within their rights. Whether or not that's "OK" depends on one's definition of OK. To me, "OK" is a personal concept and, if I found their position repugnant (i.e., not "OK" by me even if within their rights), I would exercise my right not to patronize them.
jnk
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-22 12:31
I get the sense that there has been a recent increase in the number of confrontational societal type posts on the Board and I find this disagreeable.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-12-22 13:20
BobD wrote:
> I get the sense that there has been a recent increase in the
> number of confrontational societal type posts on the Board
> and I find this disagreeable.
>
Happens every year around this time ...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-12-22 14:19
......probably due to inadequate fibre in the diet.
Bob Draznik
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