 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-17 11:13
Is this an acceptable teaching method?
I'm an adult clarinet student and have been learning to play for 2 months now.
It doesn't come easy to me and I struggle with fingering mostly. Breath support isn't a problem for me since I played alto sax for one year before taking up clarinet.
What troubles me is my teacher's method. He literally pushes me to play some pieces which are a mixture of the lower register, throat tones and second register.
I keep telling him that I don't have much of the physical ability as yet to play them correctly as I often miss B after playing A and overall I don't feel comfortable switching between registers and throwing in throat tones here and there.
As a result I practice couple of measures for half an hour, sometimes hitting most of the notes but often not.
I leave my lessons in frustration because I feel that I learn nothing but how not to be able to play my clarinet. On my own I can relatively fluently play in the low register and I can do the same in the second rerister when I switch there and get a feel of it. What I cannot do comfortably is switching back and forth and as I said mixing throat tones in between.
My teacher insists that I keep trying saying that if I miss the note 10 times I'll play it correctly on 11th time.
Is there anything wrong with this approach?
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-17 11:37
"My teacher insists that I keep trying saying that if I miss the note 10 times I'll play it correctly on 11th time."
This is a bad way to learn. So far as possible, never play anything wrongly. Certainly, never play something wrongly ten times in a row. If you do this, all you are doing is practising playing it wrongly.
I know this might seem like crazy advice, but let me tell you what I mean.
First - and this is obvious, I think - you need to concentrate on the notes that are giving you problems. If you have a passage where you can play 90% of it, and the remaining 10% is causing problems, you need to concentrate on the 10%. Don't keep playing the whole passage.
Play these difficult notes really slowly. If you have a problem playing something slurred, learn to play it tongued, then put the slurs in. (Conversely, if you have a problem playing something tongued, learn to play it slurred, then take the slurs out.)
Don't be in a hurry. If you play something wrong, then play it one more time. If it's wrong a second time, then slow it down, or simplify it, so that you can play it correctly.
Once you can play the difficult bits really slowly, then start to speed them up, and to add the easy bits that precede and follow them.
With a longer piece, don't feel you have to learn the beginning before you learn the end. Often, it is easier to learn the end first. Then, as you learn the beginning, you aren't worrying about the really difficult passage that's coming next, because you already know it.
.........
Sometimes, problems playing over the break are caused by the instrument, not the player. Do make sure your clarinet is correctly adjusted. If you tell us EXACTLY what you are finding difficult, we can tell you what to check on the clarinet.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-12-17 12:22
I would say that, if you've only been learning for a couple of months, it is probably a bit soon to expect you to be playing pieces which involve frequent changes of register - especially via throat A or Bflat. This is one of the bugbears of clarinet playing for almost everyone. I wonder whether there may also be a slight clue in the fact that you have played the saxophone before. Whereas on the saxophone you can often get away with just catching the edge of a pearl to close a hole, on the clarinet your finger has actually got to cover the hole properly which does take more practice and repetition.
Did your teacher give you any exercises or technical work to help you make the transition between playing all in one register and moving between them? It is something which does require a certain amount of preparation and reinforcement over a period of time.
I would also agree with a lot of what Norbert says about good ways to practise any difficult passage.
However, the main issue from your post seems to be that you are losing quite a lot of confidence in your teacher. As with just about any relationship, the one between teacher and pupil is based on trust and, as you are fairly new to your teacher, if you have doubts about his methods and there are other teachers available in your area, perhaps you should just say politely that you don't feel things are working out and look to change teachers.
Good luck and keep at it!
Vanessa.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-12-17 12:29
"My teacher insists that I keep trying saying that if I miss the note 10 times I'll play it correctly on 11th time."
Play it SLOW and get it right the first time. At most, it should only take 2-3 tries before it is correct. If one can't do it after 3 tries, then the tempo is too fast.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-17 12:43
Thanks for your answers so far.
The thing is that I can't play some notes reliably as yet no matter how slow I play them. For example second register B comes out with a 1/2 second delay after open G or doesn't come out at all.
"Play it SLOW and get it right the first time. At most, it should only take 2-3 tries before it is correct. If one can't do it after 3 tries, then the tempo is too fast."
The above is a good example of the problem - I can't do it right the first time or maybe I can and then cannot get it right or almost right next three times. Inconsistent...
Is it then too early for me to paly with the throat tones and register switches? I feel very clumsy when doing this stuff. I wonder if someone can learn anything in 2-3 times. If this the norm then I must be way too far from the norm. It took me three weeks to more or less reliably play in the low register. First two weeks I was picking up the clarinet as a new instrument each time I practiced.
This is the same teacher I've been studying with over 1 year and he taught me alto sax althouth he didn't push me on alto.
I don't know what happens to him now, looks like he becomes very impatient when I cannot do what he expects from me.
When I ask him - Why doesn't this or that work now he mainly replies - Don't try to analyse this - try to play it more and it will work out.
By the way, I want to add that I consider myself a very slow learner. I tried to explain this to my teacher but he doesn't take it, he tries to make me learn faster but I really can't.
One more thing I recalled while writing this reply. The piece that I'm talking about is only three lines, something like 18 measures but it's at the end of the sheet music booklet and the booklet is designed for the 1st through 3-rd year of the clarinet study.
Post Edited (2008-12-17 13:02)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-17 13:02
You need to check the clarinet doesn't have a leak. What often happens is that the keys for RH4 get slightly bent.
Look at the RH4 key for F/C. You'll see that there is a piece of metal attached to the back of it. This is the "crow's foot". The purpose of the crow's foot is to allow the RH4 keys for F#/C# and E/B to close the F/C key automatically. If the crow's foot is bent, the F/C hole won't quite close. Low E will probably sound OK, but long B won't.
There are two ways to test this:
1) By playing. Play clarion long B (all fingers on). Use LH4 to close the E/B key, taking care to push the key quite gently as you would in normal playing. Don't use RH4 at all. Does the note sound? Now play the note again, but use RH4 to ensure that the F/C key is closed. Does the note sound more easily? If it does, the crow's foot is the problem.
2) By looking closely at the instrument. Close the E/B key. Now press on the F/C pad with your finger. If the pad moves, then the crow's foot is the problem.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-12-17 13:15
Obviously, none of us has been privy to your lessons so we can only guess at whatever dialog is taking place. How much of what you've said in your post have you said to the teacher? What, if anything, besides the prescription to just "keep trying" has been the teacher's response?
NorbertTheParrot had some useful suggestions about practice method, and your teacher should have suggestions as well. Playing a passage 11 times to get it right once isn't especially effective because unless you isolate the reason why you're failing on the first 10 tries, the 11th is likely to be just plain luck, and if you can't repeat it, it's still wasted energy.
You don't really say what the problem is when you play "a mixture of the lower register, throat tones and second register." You say
"I don't have much of the physical ability as yet to play them correctly as I often miss B after playing A and overall I don't feel comfortable switching between registers and throwing in throat tones here and there,"
but you don't really describe what the problem is - does the B simply not speak? Are you getting squeaks that seem out of control? Is the problem affecting both directions - both going up from throat A to B and going down as well? Can your teacher perform the problem passages *on your instrument* (and ideally with your reed and mouthpiece) easily and without any conscious accommodations? Are you simply having a problem adjusting to the presence of (remembering) the throat fingerings between F or G and the next register (those fingerings are essentially non-existent on a sax - since it only overblows an octave you go directly from C or C# to D in the next register unless you're using alternate fingerings). There are many areas that could cause problems, from embouchure through finger coverage and instrument malfunctions to reed/mouthpiece problems. To solve any of them, you have to first identify which problem(s) you're having. That's what your teacher should be able to help diagnose. Then, once you've isolated a problem and removed any obstacles caused by the equipment, when you practice slowly, you need to pay close attention to solving any specific problem(s) you and your teacher have identified.
Purposeless repetition isn't likely to help very much. But if "on my own I can relatively fluently play in the low register and I can do the same in the second register when I switch there and get a feel of it," then working on getting from one register to the other seems like an appropriate goal to work toward. Meanwhile, use some of your practice time to play music that you're comfortable with and enjoy playing. You need to spend concentrated time on problem-solving your playing weaknesses, but if you're reaching a point of serious frustration, there's nothing wrong with spending some time just enjoying what you already can do well.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-17 15:03
Wise words kdk, this how I would teach people myself if I were a teacher. I agree with you 100% and this is what I would write myself in an answer (though not so smoothly) to a person asking a question like mine.
This means then that my understanding that there's something wrong with my teacher's method is correct.
To address your questions (although I'm sure you are not waiting for reply but just gave me some useful hints) I have a whole bunch of problems with switching between registers and throat tones.
I think no one will argue that this is a dificult part of the clarinet playing and to put it simply I don't feel right with these notes. To make an analogy my teacher asks me to run while I can only walk yet. These fingers have no appropriate muscle memory built so far and they keep failing all over over the tricky spots. These fingers simply miss the keys like a new guitar player misses strings, like a new driver clumsily switches gears in a car, etc. etc.
Post Edited (2008-12-17 15:06)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-12-17 15:09
You may want to consider taking up tennis rather than clarinet.
Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time.
You may want to take piano or a music appreciation class rather than pay money for continual frustration.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-12-17 15:44
Set your challenging passages aside for a while.
Do this for a few minutes to several days:
Play G3 (below middle C); get it sounding solid; punch the register key and let the horn "squeak up" to D5 (4th line) --sluring. Repeat (going up only, do not try to come back down). While doing this check your embouchure and keep fiddling with it until you can make this leap without changing anything.
When you can make the G-D leap, you know that your fingers are covering the tone holes. You know that you can cover the tone holes, and you have a good starting point for your embouchure.
Now make all the other 1-1/2 octave leaps: {A3->E5, Bb3->F#5, BNatural->F5, etc}
Use these leaps to solidify your embouchure.
Now go back down the horn and bring in the pinky keys. Use both left and right hand fingerings. Do {Left F#3->C#5, Right F#3->C#5, Left F->C, Right F->C, Left E3->B, Right E->B}. If these "pinky key" jumps are not speaking as quickly as those made with just your fingers, you need the sort of adjustments (or pad replacements) suggested by previous replies.
Now you know that your instrument, your embouchure, and your fingers are all working.
The next thing is two things. Play a low register note, switch to a lower note and punch the register key. If the clarion register doesn't speak, you've probably misplaced a finger, and you've got a leak on a tone hole. You know which fingers to check (those you put down just before punching the register key). Try again.
The second of the two things is to go back to those sticky places in your exercises and apply what you've just learned to your lesson:
Fingers covering tone holes;
Embouchure properly set;
Later go back and practice the leaps tonguing the upper notes, and then start learning how to get back down --the instrument doesn't like doing that, so start the downward leaps by tonguing the lower note.
Patience. I had a fabulous alto sax player fail in her attempt to cover the tone holes on her clarinet. SIGH BUT, you're better than that.
And, remember, Practice Makes Permanent!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Margaret
Date: 2008-12-17 15:51
<<You may want to consider taking up tennis rather than clarinet.
Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time.>>
I disagree! If someone likes music there is no reason to not take up an instrument as an adult. The person must just remain realistic about their progress and abilities. If someone is very competitive and it would bother them to have kids playing circles around them, then yes, this could be a problem. However, if the person simply appreciates the joy of *making* music, rather than just hearing it passively, and can appreciate simple songs as well as complex ones, then I see no problem.
I know many adults who began an instrument as an adult (with no childhood experience on them) and who love it!
You must find a teacher who appreciates the complexities of teaching adults; some are just better with kids. Only you can decide if this is the case in your situation.
Good luck, and keep playing!
Margaret
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Author: smoreno
Date: 2008-12-17 15:58
I'd possibly advise getting a new clarinet teacher. It seems that his method is a recipe for developing bad habits.
Try and find a teacher that will be patient.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-12-17 16:15
Well, actually, describing the problems you're having more specifically can help you and anyone here who wants to try to help find possible solutions.
Making sure all pads are covering their holes completely is extremely important, probably the first step. NorbertTheParrot's suggestion to try the "long" B with very light finger pressure on the B key both with and without the C key can help to confirm a leaky pad - the B *should* play equally well with or without pressing the C key. If it doesn't, the "crow's foot" needs to adjusted or the pads need to be re-seated. But air leaks from damaged or mis-adjusted pads higher on the instrument will have their greatest effect on the notes at the bottom of the clarinet (low E and the B you're having trouble with). So you may need to have a technician go over the instrument thoroughly. Again, if your teacher tries to play on your setup (if he hasn't already), he may know immediately that something's mechanically wrong that explains your difficulties.
Reeds that are too weak/soft can result in notes' not speaking immediately - especially when you're moving up or down over the register break. With no fingers on the keys when you play G, A, A-flat or B-flat, you may have a tendency to grip the mouthpiece with your embouchure to get the feeling of stability you aren't getting from holding the clarinet with your hands. This can cause pinching the reed on B after a throat-register note or pinching on the throat note itself when you suddenly take all your fingers off after playing B or any other note close above it. The sax's neckstrap doesn't completely eliminate this on a sax, especially on C-sharp, but it helps. The solution here is to find a reed/mouthpiece that plays easily but doesn't close up at the first hint of pressure against the reed.
If the instrument and reed/mouthpiece seem (to your teacher) to be OK, then you start looking for specific fingers that aren't completely covering their holes. This can be a tedious process and might even be different fingers each time - don't forget your left thumb, which has to catch the tip of the register key for B without opening up the bottom of the thumb hole.
These are all possible causes of the one specific difficulty you mention with B and sometimes G not speaking immediately when they are the second note in a leap over the break. If there other problems, there may be other possible solutions as well.
In your teacher's defense (I didn't at all mean to criticize his teaching methods - I've never seen him work firsthand) the general problem you describe as "I don't feel right with these notes" can only be solved by diving in and getting more comfortable by practicing. My basic point in my last post was that mindlessly repeating passages unsuccessfully is a prescription for failure and frustration, and that to improve and become more comfortable, your practicing has to be focused and deal with specifics. If you're already comfortable with the notes in both registers, then there's nothing really wrong with trying to get you to connect them. You will simply succeed faster if you concentrate your energy on the causes of the problems. There can't be any muscle memory in muscles that haven't done this before. You can only build that muscle memory by practicing - but practicing to correct specific mistakes, not to repeat them.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-12-17 17:04
Sorry, replied twice!?
Post Edited (2008-12-17 17:17)
Post Edited (2008-12-17 17:18)
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-12-17 17:12
-- "You may want to consider taking up tennis rather than clarinet.
Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time.
You may want to take piano or a music appreciation class rather than pay money for continual frustration.-- "
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Yeah sure. Keep 'em coming. Bob Newhart would pay a fortune for this!
Steve
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Author: Travis
Date: 2008-12-17 17:27
"You may want to consider taking up tennis rather than clarinet.
Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time.
You may want to take piano or a music appreciation class rather than pay money for continual frustration."
As a 37-year-old who has been taking lessons for roughly 6 months I find this statement ridiculous. Learning the clarinet as an adult is indeed difficult and takes a lot of practice and patience but if it is what you want to do then do it and don't let anyone talk you out of it. Adult students just need to be realistic about their own expectations. I have had to reschedule or cancel many lessons because of having to work late and there have been many nights were I haven't practiced for as long as I would have liked...or at all - but I do not let this get me down much and I just keep going.
Regarding the issues going over the break, as others of said, all students are likely to have difficulty with this. I thought it would be impossible for me to ever go from A or Bb to B smoothly but after a lot of practice I am much more optimistic. In fact, anything regarding playing the clarinet that I at first found difficult to impossible has gotten much less difficult with practice. I would think that your teacher would give you some exercises that would work specifically on going over the break...if not ask him for some. If you think there might be something functionally wrong with your clarinet then ask your teacher to play it to check. Usually if my Bb is hesitant to speak I remind myself to give enough breath support and that helps a lot.
I think it is important that you trust your teacher and believe that he is leading you down the path that is best for you - if this is not the case then maybe he isn't a good match for you.
I hope you don't get too discouraged. I think all clarinetists, regardless of level, go through a lot of frustrations. Just keep at it and believe that things will get better with regular practice.
Good luck!!
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-12-17 17:27
Mr. Gangolli wrote, "Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time."
I am 71 years old and am into my 8th month as a beginning adult with no prior experience of playing the clarinet, and I must strongly disagree with Mr. Gangolli. Almost daily I see improvement. I will admit there are some days when I think, why'd I do this, but perseverance pays off, and I get by those days. I am playing all the clarion notes now and will soon start the altissimo notes (highest register), so I believe if one has the willpower and will persevere, s/he can certainly do it, and do it well. I actually think I have somewhat of an advantage over young students, for I have time to practice and the fortitude to stick to it. In addition, I thoroughly enjoy it.
CarlT
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Author: Nasubi77
Date: 2008-12-17 17:57
"You may want to take piano or a music appreciation class rather than pay money for continual frustration."
Being both a piano and clarinet player, I don't see how taking piano would cause any *less* frustration than taking clarinet! I learned both as a child (piano first), so I can't speak as to what it's like learning either as an adult, but the both instruments offer their own set of unique challenges. You suggest the OP trade his/her embouchure frustrations (or whatever the problem is in this case) for consistently reading 2-8 notes on 2 separate clefs simultaneously?
In fact, I disagree with your whole statement about discouraging adults who want to learn an instrument. That's an awfully pessimistic outlook on life if you ask me.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-12-17 20:23
I didn't take up piano or classical guitar until well into adulthood, but I enjoyed both very much. I learned clarinet from the 4th grade, and sax from high school. Quite honestly, I don't see that one instrument was significantly harder to learn than the others. Of course, as an adult, life has a way of cutting into the timew I have available to play any instrument, even clarinet. Still, if I want to, I try to make the time.
Even so, the whole suggestion of taking up tennis and dropping clarinet was out of line, and not helpful at all to a student who wants to make progress. I really have to congratulate Dileep Gangolli for posting one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on the board in several years!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2008-12-17 20:34
Noverbuf, I think this is probably the type of information you're looking for.
Every beginning clarinet book I have ever seen (and I've seen pretty much all of them) starts in the low register and stays in the low register for at least three months, usually much longer. The reasons for this are two-fold.
First, it takes a long time for the average student's fingers to consistently find and cover the holes. As you have found, any attempt to play long fingerings over the break before this is not only a waste of time but also an exercise in frustration. Second, the embouchure and air support are not developed enough to effectively handle the upper register in most students for several months. Playing too high too soon can cause a student to develop bad habits.
It's very hard to call a teacher incompetent without actually seeing them teach. However, I would have to be very concerned about the things you are describing happening in a beginner's lessons. Is it possible that your teacher is not used to working with beginning students?
Post Edited (2008-12-17 20:36)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-12-17 21:18
I've taught many adult Clarinetists (from scratch) and the biggest thing is the commitment to practice even when real life gets in the way.
Go slow, and thoroughly, and if the teacher can't handle it, get another teacher. Develop a really strong lower register before going into the upper.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-12-18 01:24
Those beginner books you're talking about are geared to the young beginner - in the U.S. typically about 9-11 years old. Some of the smaller kids' fingers can't possibly cover the right hand holes easily and sometimes need to be held back - three months may not be enough - until they can. An adult isn't faced with this problem - his hands are full-grown and, unless they're unusual, fully capable of covering the tone holes from the first lesson.
Noverbuf isn't saying he can't cover the holes or produce the notes above the break - in fact he says the opposite. He *can* play those notes "relatively fluently." I'm trusting his self-assessment, but if he can play the notes on either side of the break, then with good technique and a properly functioning setup, there's no reason why he shouldn't work on getting from one register to the other. Once he can do it at all with any consistency, it will become possible to refine lots of pieces of the process until it sounds natural - that part may take time. Learning to connect the two halves of the clarinet (once you can play "relatively fluently" in each) is a process that has to start somewhere, and those three line tunes Noverbuf's teacher is assigning, depending on what's in them, may be perfectly approachable (or not - I haven't seen them).
The important problem in your post is that the learning time frame is not fixed for any book or any student using it - a beginner may cover those chalumeau pages in 3 weeks or 3 months or a year, depending on physical maturity (hand size mostly plus the ability to provide enough air support to the reed), investment of practice time, and to some extent natural coordination. The first doesn't apply to adult learners, the second is always a problem for everyone, so every student must do the best he/she can with the time that's available, and problems caused by natural stiffness or muscular indirection can be solved with studied, careful, focused practice.
Deleep Gangoli earlier suggested that "Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing...," for which several others have taken him to task. I don't think the prospect of learning to play as an adult is nearly so bleak as Deleep makes it sound. I do think that adults *sometimes* have a harder time starting an instrument because, unlike children, they worry, sometimes too much, about doing things the right way. A child beginning an instrument will most of the time just play, and much of the teacher's time will be spent trying to refine and correct the child's first attempts (but I *like* it this way, says the child) in order to facilitate more sophisticated musical effects later (sometimes an overzealous teacher can try to refine too much too quickly, but that's a whole other area of discussion). An adult often expects too much sophistication too soon, tries to do things too perfectly, because many adults like to feel that they're in control and are fearful of looking (or sounding) foolish or incompetent. As a result, many adult learners tense up and try much too hard. Often, they end up impeding their own progress by being unable to accept the unrefined results that are nearly always the first steps to playing. The importance of doing everything "right" supercedes the need to do *something*, however rudimentary, so that it can be refined and improved. For this reason it *sometimes* for *some* adults is very difficult to learn an instrument - if they can't let their inhibitions go and just *do* things more like the child does.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-12-18 02:31
kdk's second, thoughtful post makes reference to Dileep Gangoli's warning to adults to stay away from learning a new instrument.
kdk writes: "I do think that adults *sometimes* have a harder time starting an instrument because, unlike children, they worry, sometimes too much, about doing things the right way. A child beginning an instrument will most of the time just play, and much of the teacher's time will be spent trying to refine and correct the child's first attempts..."
And adds, "An adult often expects too much sophistication too soon, tries to do things too perfectly, because many adults like to feel that they're in control and are fearful of looking (or sounding) foolish or incompetent. As a result, many adult learners tense up and try much too hard.''
kdk has captured something of the adult's expectation of too much too soon. As someone who has returned to the clarinet after decades away, I am almost, if not quite, an adult beginner. I did (and do) have dreams of gaining ground fast to make up for lost time.
In my case, the clarinet has proved a humbling passion and I've grown to understand that even a lifetime isn't quite long enough to learn what's needed. Sobering? Yes. A deal breaker? No. Though I have recalibrated the time it will take to become as competent as a decent high school player--from months to years.
For me, playing the clarinet as a child was just too daunting. I was afraid to be bad, afraid to squeak, afraid to ask questions of the teacher. I gave it up. Twice. Now, I'm unfazed by squeaking, or by a stubborn rhythmic pattern in a new etude, or by a complex minor scale. I'm no longer self-conscious. My lessons are all about questions, and answers, and I practice every day before work.
It's liberating.
Post Edited (2008-12-18 05:33)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 07:28
Choice of reeds
This is all personal, but your teacher's recommendation is perfectly reasonable. Using harder reeds will tend to make you play sharper, but you say you already tend to play sharp. The usual rule of thumb is to use the hardest reeds on which you can get a good clear sound in the low register. If your low notes are fuzzy, your reeds are too hard.
..............
To summarise
Two quite separate points have come up in this thread (leaving aside Dileep's recommendation to give up, with which many of us disagree):
1) Your problems playing over the break seem to be caused, at least in part, by your instrument. It is clearly possible to play your instrument fluently - your teacher can - but your instrument is bad enough to make this more difficult than it should be.
2) Your teacher seems to be encouraging you to practise by playing things over and over and over again until they are correct. This is a bad way to practice. So far as possible, every note you play should be correct. If you can't play what's written, play something simpler that you can play correctly.
I have to say that you might be well advised to find a better teacher.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-18 07:35
" ...many adults like to feel that they're in control and are fearful of looking (or sounding) foolish or incompetent. As a result, many adult learners tense up and try much too hard. "
This is a very good point and it raises the following question which is a dilemma: one advice could be not to worry too much about doing everything right and just 'Play, Play, Play' as if you were a child.
Another advice would be to watch yourself very carefully, proceed very slowly, not to make a single mistake, worry about not to get into any bad habit, etc.
Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle?
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2008-12-18 08:01
"You may want to consider taking up tennis rather than clarinet.
Learning a new instrument as an adult is most likely the hardest thing to do. Unless you played as a kid, it is a very frustrating thing and I never encourage adult beginning students.....I actually discourage them and tell them to do other things with their time.
You may want to take piano or a music appreciation class rather than pay money for continual frustration."
Along with some other posters, I feel that Dileep who wrote this is being squashing and negative in a very uncalled-for way. I don't think that the age at which one starts an instrument is of much relevance at all. The adult beginnner probably does not start out with ideas of taking the profession by storm anyway but in many cases is capable of attaining a good standard with work and time and of getting a lot of pleasure out of playing, which is the most important thing for all of us.
I don't want to turn this into a personal attack on another poster but I don't think that this board is intended for putting those who want to play off playing.
Vanessa.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 08:04
Noverbuf....
The truth is neither!
The truth is "Listen, Listen, Listen".
That's almost the hardest skill of all.
You need to listen to what you are playing. Not just "Was that the right note?" but "Was it in tune", "Did it start cleanly", "Did it end cleanly", "Was it the right volume", "Was it the right tone-colour" and so on.
The secret is not to play everything perfectly - though, as I keep saying - you should always play so that every note is correct.
The secret is to know what you are doing well and what needs improvement. If you don't listen to yourself, you'll never know what you need to work on.
Your teacher should be teaching you this, but it's possible that, in a quest for "Higher, Louder, Faster", he is not doing so.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-18 08:26
..."Did it start cleanly"...?
One of the worse problems I experienced on saxophone and continue to struggle with on clarinet is starting notes cleanly.
I know the theory but still can't get it right. Most of the time I get either 'Pshhh' or 'Bump' or a mixture of both or a pre-note squeak.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-18 08:55
Another question I have and I would really appreciate your answers on this one as I didn't get it clrearly from my teacher is how do you operate the throat A key?
Do you roll the index finger on to it or do you slide the finger on to it?
In the latter case the fingernail would still be facing up while in the first 'rolling' method it would turn some angle towards the operator.
Post Edited (2008-12-18 08:55)
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-12-18 11:25
I would start looking for a new teacher. This is something you want to enjoy. not feel frustrated and stressed by an impatient teacher.
Teaching is difficult, I tried it, and often thought one of my adult students was "over analyzing" but you know what, it was that I didn't know how to answer her questions and didn't want to look stupid. Tho, I was extremely patient, I decided teaching was not for me.
On the other hand, I have had many teachers that didnt work out. I actually had given up the search thinking it was ME and stopped taking lessons.
Last year a fellow clarinetist mentioned a teacher to me so I thought I would give it a try. She is a great teacher as far as her musical knowledge goes, but also, she understands the working adults needs and gears lessons towards that. In addition, she never pushes to the frustrattion level but just enough to make continous progress and to stay enthused and enjoy it.
A few weeks back I was so caught up at work I had no time to practice. I was nervous driving to my lesson and when I got there I told her. she said, well, then we'll have to make it fun. and she pulled out a book of duets and a book to sight read new rhythms. it was so much fun, I told her I ought to be unprepared more often!
anyway, the point is, if you arent enjoying learning the clarinet because of the person teaching it to you, find a new teacher. if that one doesnt work out, try another one.
best of luck, and dont give up.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2008-12-18 11:55
#2.5 V12s should be OK with a 5RV. Harder reeds can certainly be played on it, and you might try a box of #3 and see if it's better or worse. If anything, a harder reed will make your pitch sharper. The "traditional" version of the 5RV will play sharper than the Series 13 (or Profile 88) 5RV (made from a slightly different blank). If your 5RV is made from the traditional blank, it may partly explain your sharpness.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-12-18 12:02
Maybe I have a strange slant on life but I think that adults improve FASTER than kids. The only limit on most adults that kids don't have is that little thing called a job and/or family to care for.
-
To the OP, you really need a different teacher. '10 time wrong and the 11th will be right' is not a "method"- it's a technique for gambling! The human body and mind, however, is not a craps table; it must be *prepared* into the state of ability.
I can't lift 200 lbs over my head. If I tried for 10 years, I would never be able to do it. But if I started with 100 lbs this week and then 105 lbs in 2 weeks etc, I would be able to do 200 lbs in 2-3 years.
A good teacher should help that kind of preparation.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-18 12:23
I understand with years the finger dexterity decreases, doesn't it?
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 12:23
Noverbuf....
You operate the A key by rolling your finger. The side of the finger, not the pad of the finger, touches the key. You need to move the finger far enough such that it is not blocking the airflow from the hole it normally covers, and is not preventing the ring from rising, otherwise the note will be flat.
This is really basic technique, which your teacher should have no difficulty explaining.
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-18 12:46
"If your 5RV is made from the traditional blank, it may partly explain your sharpness."
This is a French pitch 5RV, not profile 88 or series 13. I also notice that when I start on Low E and proceed up to an open G the pitch raises. Open G is usually 10% sharp. I tried to relax the embouchure and lower the tongue position but that didn't help.
The second register is usually more or less in correct pitch.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2008-12-18 14:01
Frequently Open G and other throat tones need finger correction. Start by adding your RH ring finger on its hole and continue up the clarinet adding a finger at a time until the G is closer.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-18 16:43
skygardner wrote:
>> '10 time wrong and the 11th will be right' is not a "method"- it's a technique for gambling! The human body and mind, however, is not a craps table; it must be *prepared* into the state of ability.
>>
>> I can't lift 200 lbs over my head. If I tried for 10 years, I would never be able to do it. But if I started with 100 lbs this week and then 105 lbs in 2 weeks etc, I would be able to do 200 lbs in 2-3 years.>>
Much of what you (and others) have written is true.
However, I wouldn't totally write off the technique that ALL children use when learning to speak. (We babble randomly, and then gradually home in on what works.)
Of course -- and it's the difficulty with this BBoard -- we don't know the full details of the situation in this case; but imagining various possible scenarios, I find that I want to say: we are creatures constructed in such a way that we DO learn by trial and error, despite our conscious intentions.
It's not true of all endeavours, as your weightlifting analogy shows. But some people need to be looser with themselves; and Noverbuf might be one.
Tony
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 16:51
Tony, your analogy with speech is interesting, but I think it is flawed.
Music is an activity where we seek perfection. A very few of us (not me) come somewhere close to achieving it.
Speech is an activity where we seek adequacy. Some people do indeed speak very fluently and accurately nearly all the time. But most people do not. They stumble over words, they um and err, they repeat themselves, they use the wrong word. But they manage to communicate perfectly well all the same.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-18 19:35
Norbert wrote:
>> Tony, your analogy with speech is interesting, but I think it is flawed.>>
If you had really thought it interesting, it would be reasonable to assume that you had taken the trouble to think about it for more than a second or two.
But what you then write shows that you didn't either really think it interesting, or really think about it:
>> Music is an activity where we seek perfection. A very few of us (not me) come somewhere close to achieving it. Speech is an activity where we seek adequacy. Some people do indeed speak very fluently and accurately nearly all the time. But most people do not. They stumble over words, they um and err, they repeat themselves, they use the wrong word. But they manage to communicate perfectly well all the same.>>
The correct analogy here is between composing sentences and composing music. Even great composers may well stutter before producing the final versions of their compositions.
Someone trying to communicate may well stumble and repeat themselves. But in reproducing an existing sentence, most people are able.
It's the musical analogue of this ability that we're talking about.
Tony
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 20:04
Tony, I did find it interesting, and I did think about it for more than a second or two. (Though only a few minutes, as the timings on our posts prove.)
I did not write down all my thoughts.
Surely the analogies are:
1) Composing is analogous to creative writing.
2) Improvisation is analogous to speech or (perhaps more closely) to extempore public speaking.
3) Playing from written music is analogous to reading aloud.
In your first post you referred to children babbling. In doing so, what they are learning is ordinary speech, which is a rather weak analogy to improvisation.
In your second post, however, you change the subject to "reproducing an existing sentence". But reading aloud is not an activity learned by babbling. It is an activity we are taught in school.
You claim "... in reproducing an existing sentence, most people are able."
But this simply untrue. You can prove this to yourself very very easily.
Listen to a professional musician sight-reading. Unless the music is especially difficult, he will play it pretty well perfectly.
Now listen to a professional broadcaster reading a news bulletin. This is ordinary, everyday language. But he will make mistakes. I am listening to the 9 pm news on BBC Radio 4 right now...... wait for it .... less than one minute into the broadcast, the newsreader said, as close as I could catch it: "He will make his intentions for the closing of the detenten the detention centre..."
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-18 20:15
Introducing 'reading' simply complicates the issue.
He's talking about 'going over the break', not about sightreading.
Tony
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-18 20:40
Tony - maybe a better analogy between speech and the OP's problem with the break is learning to say a tongue-twister reliably.
That is also, I suggest, not something that a child will learn by random babbling. Sure, if he babbles enough he will sometimes say it correctly, but to learn to say it reliably will, I suggest, require systematic practice.
I've never heard a toddler teaching himself to say a tongue-twister and it is possible, therefore, that I am wrong. Maybe the babbling method would indeed work. I very much doubt that it would be the most efficient way for an adult to learn.
(I admit that my analogy begs the question as to whether the concept of tongue-twister has any application to a toddler. For an adult, a tongue-twister is a string of words that breaks normal rules of pronunciation in an awkward way. For a toddler, there may be no rules, in which case there can be no such thing as a tongue-twister.)
.....
Tongue-twisters apart, I think there may be another problem with your suggestion that the OP should just babble a bit. I wonder whether adults CAN babble in the way an infant can. (Were you inclined to be rude, you might say I'm having a pretty good try....)
Perhaps babbling works for infants because they are able to do it in an uncontrolled, unselfconscious way. Perhaps it works because infants don't care if they make mistakes. A normal adult, who cares desperately about his mistakes even if nobody is there to hear them, may not be able to benefit from babbling in the same way as an infant can.
I have no expertise in child psychology, nor adult psychology come to that, so I shall stop.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-18 21:22
Norbert wrote:
>> Perhaps babbling works for infants because they are able to do it in an uncontrolled, unselfconscious way. Perhaps it works because infants don't care if they make mistakes. A normal adult, who cares desperately about his mistakes even if nobody is there to hear them, may not be able to benefit from babbling in the same way as an infant can.>>
I think that 'going over the break' for a clarinet player is much more analogous to 'saying a word' for an infant than it is to saying a tongue-twister -- because of course, some words are more difficult for an infant than others. (How hard is going over the break, REALLY?)
Nevertheless, what you write above is the nub of the issue.
You say, a normal adult cares desperately about his mistakes. I suppose that, contra the main thrust of this thread, what I'm trying to suggest to Noverbuf is that he might more effectively locate his difficulty more in his worrying about his failure than in his teacher's ability. (A particularly direct example of how 'worrying' can be a difficulty is that it very often stops you blowing properly.)
And, given that his teacher wants to say these things to him, perhaps they're well-founded things to say in his particular case.
(Or not. Difficult to judge from here, isn't it:-)
Tony
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-12-18 21:50
Tony-
Children learning speech is actually a good example to support the idea I wrote about.
Although there is trial and err, it is on small, managable portions of task, and with frequent re-presentations of the goal. You don't just start them all at once with, "I had 2 eggs and coffee in the cafe."
-
About adult learning- I took a music petigogy class once and a few lessons were devoted to teaching adults. The professor made point that, when teaching adults that have not done music before, one must... 1. be very clear with the musical goals. 2. make a deal that they will study for 9 months-1 year to get those goals. If they want to continue after that, they are very welcome, but (usually) about 9 months will be needed for the adult learner to really "feel" improvement and satisfaction.
The reason is that practicing for an abstract amount of time (like children do) to "get better" is usually frustrating when the goal and plan is not clear and most adults quit (or quit the teacher) when they feel doubt.
Post Edited (2008-12-19 00:08)
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Author: Noverbuf
Date: 2008-12-19 07:34
Hello again to all,
I saw a couple posts above that suggested that I should describe specific problems I have. Yesterday I tried to separate the most problematic part of my palying and I found that transition from the lower register to second register B gives me lots of trouble. B doesn't come out often or it comes out with a delay.
This I understand is mailnly caused by leaky E/B. I also cannot hit B most of the time I start on it. When I start on any other note in the second register and then descend to B it comes out nicely.
Does it really make so much difference when the E/B is leaky?
Also I notice that I sometimes overtighten my embouchure and when I relax it I get the leaky B much more easily.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-19 07:54
Noverbuf - what MAY be happening is that the E/B key leaks when you push it down gently, but stops leaking when you push it down hard (with the gorilla grip you refer to).
It may be that you are pushing it a different amount under different circumstances. It may be that, when you overtighten your embouchure, you relax your grip.
The first thing is to sort out the leak. There is no sense playing an instrument that you don't feel you can rely on. Not merely is it frustrating, it will teach you bad habits, like playing with a gorilla grip.
Tony wrote, and he is absolutely right, "A particularly direct example of how 'worrying' can be a difficulty is that it very often stops you blowing properly."
In particular, if you worry about your instrument, you will play badly. You will be thinking, "This next note is a difficult one, I must play it with extra care" - and that is exactly the wrong thing to do.
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2008-12-19 15:43
Noverbuf - by all means get your clarinet fixed. I just got mine back from what I had assumed would be an overhaul. But the tech guy said the pads and everything were still in very good condition (after 5 years) and it would be a waste to exchange them. So he just charged me a small fee for taking the instrument apart and readjusting everything (including a minor leak that I had not even noticed).
And I was really amazed at how easy a second register B can be. Its not that I felt that I had a problem before, but I did not realize a register break can be soo smooth and effortless.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-12-19 17:43
Problems with the break are often actually problems with fingers and/or with the state of the instrument. A new clarinet, straight from the factory, that has never been to a technician, is usually pretty poorly adjusted. Take it to a good technician immediately (get recommendations from local musicians... while some technicians are great, others are not as good. I've known technicians to say, "You took it to ___? It most definitely needs an overhaul now!"). The last thing you need now is to be fighting with a leaky instrument.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Roys_toys
Date: 2008-12-19 19:37
In his response Bob Phillips says " practice the leaps tonguing the upper notes, and then start learning how to get back down --the instrument doesn't like doing that, so start the downward leaps by tonguing the lower note."
As another adult re-starter ( 2 years in ) my clarinet goes beyond doesnt like to total refusal to slur down through clarion into chalemeau.without touching the reed. I now touch the reed as a matter of course- and I guess I no longer have confidence that it will go down without.
I've often wondered why my tutor books dont mention the slurring down problem, and almost always only give slurring up examples to beginners.
I'm intrigued by Bob's use of "start". Does this mean that there is a another more advanced method that will force my clarinet to drop the clarion in downward swoops without tonguing, that I might learn as I progress ?
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2008-12-19 21:23
Dileep Gangolli, what an appalling thing to say. I`m 76 and started playing clarinet a year ago. No matter how hard I try I`ll never make the Sydney Symphony Orch. but I made the local band and love playing.
I`ld make this comment about teaching. It is essential to always leave a lesson satisfied and with a feeling of having made a some progress. If the teacher is not leaving a student with this feeling he or she is a dud.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-12-19 23:41
Rusty wrote, in part:
>> I'd make this comment about teaching. It is essential to always leave a lesson satisfied and with a feeling of having made a some progress. If the teacher is not leaving a student with this feeling he or she is a dud.>>
If I were talking to an audience of teachers, I might say this about their responsibility to a student.
But if I were talking to an audience of students, I'd rather say to them that their teachers are simply resources, and that it's the STUDENT'S responsibility to represent their problem in such a way that the teacher is clear about what they want.
After all, when you get beyond teachers, representing your problems clearly is what progress in any discipline has both to start with, and continue with.
It might seem paradoxical, but responsibility in relationship isn't additive.
Tony
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-12-20 12:49
Tony Pay wrote,
>>However, I wouldn't totally write off the technique that ALL children use when learning to speak. (We babble randomly, and then gradually home in on what works.)>>
That technique does work for music, too, because there's a real musical counterpart to the baby babbling before learning to speak: a pre-beginner playing by ear. It's a direct comparison, not a metaphor or an analogy, because when children do get hold of instruments (or convenient simulacra such as saucepans and spoons), and when nobody demands they stop making all that horrible noise, they'll eagerly experiment with playing by ear. Though I've got no scientific data to back up this observation, I'm convinced music is a form of communication that comes naturally to the human species, because I don't think I've ever heard a musically-babbling child fail to progress, often quite rapidly, in the direction of recognizable music. Rhythm or a tune starts to emerge from the chaos, often within minutes.
I've had ample opportunities to observe the efficacy of musical babbling because all my life, my mother and her side of the family gave kids easy access to the sturdier instruments. We did get some simple behavioral instruction, in the form of information that we were not allowed to climb into the piano, not allowed to take the saucepan-and-spoon percussion outdoors where the neighbors could hear it and not allowed to use the recorders and toy flutes as cudgels, battering rams, baseball bats, shovels, etc., but it wasn't musical instruction per se at the beginning -- and yet music happened simply through monkey-see, monkey-do mimicry. If parents play instruments and seem to enjoy themselves, kids want in on the action.
In fact, that's how my brother and I finagled piano lessons for ourselves, back in the days of the dinosaurs: by going to the piano and babbling on it until the more or less random banging and twiddling evolved into patterns that made my mother think lessons might not waste time and money.
It seems to me that an adult beginner can benefit from musical babbling, too. With my weakness for flea market finds, I often drag home ethnic instruments for which I have no instruction books. I babble on these until I get some idea of how they work and what they're good for. (The suonas -- double-reed, wooden "Chinese trumpets" similar to oboes, but with flared metal bells and without keys -- will come in handy if I ever need to raise a fire alarm or wake the dead, for instance.)
The adult beginner who asked the question might want to try closing the instruction books occasionally and babbling around on the clarinet. By doing that, you're associating fingerings with particular *sounds*, without the filter of obeying notes on paper. I think paper-training is important, but babbling can make a musician more comfortable with using all the holes and keys, and also more musical. And if anybody tells you it's a waste of time for an adult to try to learn a new instrument, please tell them to take a running jump!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2008-12-20 12:51)
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The Clarinet Pages
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