 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Willi111
Date: 2008-12-15 17:59
Hi,
still dealing with decision making.
I play the soprano for more than 20 year (just for hobby). I´m looking for a bas clarinet (maybe yamaha 221 or VITO or ..). All these models haven´t got the second octave key. Which notes are problematic w/o this 2nd octave key?
thanks for your help
Willi
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-15 18:09
I'm not familiar with those particular models but I know that the upper registers are much more difficult to get a good tone without the second register key. Make sure you try it before you buy it. Or even better, have someone that actually plays the bass clarinet try it for you. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-15 18:45
As I commented in another thread you started:
"Recent plastic Yamaha basses (branded 221 II) are reputed to be very good. The older ones are a different design and are less well thought of."
When you ask questions about the "Yamaha 221", you need to be specific as to which design you mean.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-15 18:55
I was thinking of the opposite the other day - which upper register notes are BETTER on basses with the single register key? Due to the location of the speaker tube on these basses (which is very high on the top joint), are the problem notes found on double register mechanism basses (mainly F, F# and G) better on basses with the single register mech?
I think the notes from B to Eb (at the lower end of the upper register) and then from A to C (at the top) may suffer a bit on basses with single register mechanism (but not impossible to play), I haven't got a plastic Vito or Bundy (or Yamaha or Jupiter) to try though I'd like someone to correct me if I'm wrong.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-12-15 19:19
From experience with a single-register bass of vintage design, the ledger Bb through C (![[Bb5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/bb5.gif) .. ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif) )are, uhm, difficult notes unless slurred. Altissimo (further away from the register key) is considerably easier again.
I haven't encountered all of those notes very often, however. Most is in the Lowest E up to clarion A range, at least in the pieces in my repertoire.
--
Ben
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-15 19:40
With all due respect to my friend Ed Palanker, I have not found that "the upper registers are much more difficult to get a good tone without the second register key." I played the bulk of my 43 year major symphony orchestra career on a single register key Leblanc; can't remember any complaints about the quality of my upper register tones! Nor can I say that "the ledger Bb through C are difficult notes unless slurred." That is unless one has a sloppy embouchure and poor air support.
The main trade off is that the long B can tend to be a bit stuffy on a single register key instrument, especially if the horn is leaking, even slightly. The back side of that is that the throat Bb is clear and glorious, due to a dedicated tone hole.
I've posted about this canard before; perhaps those making inquiry should search the archives.
N.B: In my opinion the Vito is a dog! The current model Yamaha is not bad at all. Out of adjustment they're all bad!
"A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing."
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra, Washington (retired)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-12-15 19:48
We have discussed the single, double and triple [half-hole the F#/B , 1st finger left {altissimo}] register keying many times, so possibly a Search might be informative. This ? is interesting as relating to the "scope" of the several register vent locations. My first thots are of the "ranges" of bass cl playing anticipated, symp, band, jazz etc which would affect choice, I'm sure. For myself, comm band, the lower clarion only was important, so the several [older at that time] "doubles" makes were important, Selmer and Buffet, and I found a 1960-70's Sel which has satisfied my needs. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-12-15 19:52
Very well said, Larry, wish I had seen your post, "before opening mouth". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-15 20:06
Larry (or anyone else who knows)
Are the current top-of-the-range basses from Leblanc single- or double-register keyed?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-12-15 20:16
Larry Bocaner wrote:
> Nor can I say that "the ledger Bb through C are difficult notes unless
> slurred." That is unless one has a sloppy embouchure and poor air
> support.
That's what I thought too. It might indeed have to do with the mouthpiece/reed combination I'm using - the softer (and more soaked) the reed, the more difficult. No such problems on Soprano and Eefer...maybe it's the different angle of the mouthpiece or the body of the instrument.
OTOH, I have had no problems with alternative fingerings (eg RT oxx|xxx) for C6, at least in the few times I had to play that note, so thankfully there's at least one halfway easy way out.
And yes, I've been playing bass for half a year only, so surely there's room for improvement. I'm working on it... :-)
--
Ben
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-15 21:03
"Are the current top-of-the-range basses from Leblanc single- or double-register keyed?"
As far as I know -- both options are available. They've changed the bore since mine was made -- c.1962; I don't love 'em!
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-15 21:29
Larry - are you saying that if you buy a Leblanc Opus bass, you have to specify whether you want a single or double register key?
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Author: blazian
Date: 2008-12-15 21:34
On my current bass clarinet (Buffet 1180) the most difficult notes for me are from top space E to the G above that (![[E5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e5.gif) - ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) ). The G# and above speak well for me, whether slurred or tongued. When I play my Bundy for marching season I have about the same problem notes.
If I had choose between a Vito and a Yamaha 221 II, I would definitely RUN towards the Yamaha. Some older Yamahas are identical to the Vitos. Of course, seeing that I'm a Selmer/Bundy kinda guy, I'd buy a nice Selmer 1430P or an older Bundy.
- Martin
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-15 23:29
I will bow to Larry on this. The only experience I've had with single octave bass clarinets have had problems with the altissimo register, high C to G above the staff which is what I thought Willi was talking about. Since Larry has had a better experience with them I will give him the benefit of the doubt, he was, and still is, a well respected player so he would certainly know more about a singe octave bass clarinet than I would. I didn't realize that Larry played on one all those years. I'm not familiar with the Leblanc models and assumed that the professional models had a double octave. The only one I ever tried had a double octave. I stand corrected. ESP
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-16 00:27
" (---are you saying that if you buy a Leblanc Opus bass, you have to specify whether you want a single or double register key?"
Got me there, Norbert! I haven't kept up with Leblanc since the Selmer takeover.
Ed, I've had both single and double octave key Leblancs -- always preferred the single!
Post Edited (2008-12-16 00:30)
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Author: clariknight
Date: 2008-12-16 00:39
Larry - while we have you on the subject, would you find it beneficial for someone looking to buy a bass clarinet to try out both types and see which one they like better?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-16 03:08
Clarinight, if you are purchasing a new top line bass clarinet you will probably only find double register key models available. If you are looking for a used or student model bcl, I would just try to find the horn that plays the best in all registers, notwithstanding what the register key system is, as you suggest.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-12-16 04:06
I can't speak with the authority of Ed and Larry, but I've played a bit of bass clarinet on a lower level for a few years and have had both types of instrument mentioned --- a single-register-vent Noblet through college, a series of single-vent Leblancs for about fifteen years thereafter, and then a series of double-register-vent Kohlerts such as my current instrument (a metal version). I've managed to squeak out adequate upper register sounds on all of those; and have played other folks' bass clarinets of both types, with mixed results. I wouldn't say that one type is definitely better than the other; but in my experience a well-adjusted double-vent bass generally plays more easily and with a more 'characteristic' sound in the upper register, than does a typical single-vent instrument, at the expense of extra complexity in the mechanism, of course.
The usual caveats apply.
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2008-12-16 05:41
I've just purchased a new Yamaha 211 II bass clarinet to replace the Vito I have been playing for the last four years. The plastic mouthpiece that came with the Yamaha allows me to play the clarion register with far greater ease than on the Vito. But with my new Pomarico #2 crystal, it's so much easier still. I can articulate almost as well as on my Bb, and yet the Yamaha is a single register instrument.
Mike Blinn
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