 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-25 09:11
Hi, all........... just discovered the forum last week.......... glad to see that the wood v. plastic row goes on and on and on........ as does the throat Bb problem. I have read many of the replies and suggestions, and could I throw in another one based on personal experience.......... I have a clarinet by a top maker on which the set-up is such that the A key- when depressed- collides with the small pad that resides underneath it, thereby depressing it. This pad if depressed further dulls the Bb note. The only cure for this would be the removal of some metal from the underside of the A key, and this I will do when I am next dismantling the instument- I can live with it just now.
I do feel that the problem looms larger in the mind of the player than the listener, and one grasps at straws to correct it.......... I try to use the resonance fingering ooo.xxx/ lowF. This fingering (especially when descending from the lower notes of the clarion register) means that one is essentially holding the clarinet in the right hand, and this gives a good stability to the instument and helps the player to play the two throat notes more precisely.......... this helps with the attack, and makes the note come out more "confidently", as any fumbling leading to the two keys not opening simultaneously will affect the start of the note. Just play it like you meant it!
I hope that I have not simply repeated what others have said........ but it is all in a good cause......... delighted to hear any views....... H&P.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-11-25 09:58
Welcome!
I discovered 'resonance fingerings' on this very site. It's a good point to make, that the extra fingers help stabilise the instrument. Personally I use the third fingers of both hands for Bb, and the first finger of the right hand for A.
Isn't there usually some sort of spacer under the 'A' key to stop it descending too far? (I remember mine fell off once...)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-25 10:23
Hi Bassie........... Yes, there is a cork spacer under the A key, but you have to watch this as well........ on this particular instrument the cork is almost causing it's own trouble- it almost grazes the side of the small pad....... H&P.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-11-25 12:57
Personally I'd consider re-engineering the cork before cutting metal. And it sounds like there might be a combination of factors here - the pad underneath might be sitting a bit high.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-25 13:31
Indeed - trim the cork on the underside of the A key to clear the G vent pad cup, and if the G vent is opening too far and clattering on the underside of the A key, have it lowered by bending the linkage from the LH1 ring key down (and you may have to bend the thumb ring down too as it may sit too high in relation to the thumb bush).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-25 15:32
Hi, all.......... I am delighted and quite amazed to have recieved such immediate and thoughtful responses from you...... In the absence of the actual instrument, your suggestions are quite sensible..... but....... the keywork is otherwise excellent...... I am very happy with it...... all the pads open to a reasonable degree, and I am very surprised that this one problem exists. It is not a cork problem........ I said that the cork stop on the A key "almost" causes a problem, but does not........ it just clears the small G pad and no more. It is metal to metal, and of course the A key is so small and chunky that it cannot be bent. The corks on the A and the G# both hit the body at the same time, so all is well there.
If I had to guess, it is as if the manufacturer- whose name begins with B, if I remember! - had put too much of a slope on the finger part of the A key to facilitate the rocking on to it with the side of the 1st finger, and this leads to the collision. The instrument plays well, is comfortable (for me), and I will do something about it eventually, but since everything else appears to be fine, I really cannot think of an alternative to removing metal.
It is an odd situation, but my main reason for mentioning it was to point out a possible reason for stuffy Bbs that could easily be ignored especially by a player that had limited mechanical experience.
Thank you all again...... will be in touch...... this is a great facility.....H&P
Post Edited (2008-11-26 12:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-26 12:16
Hi, Chris P and Bassie........... latest news........... I have recently obtained a used but immaculate updated version of the clarinet that I was describing.
It was quite revealing to put them together, and to note that Messrs B and co. have made the A key approx. 1/8" longer- this gives cosiderably more space for the little G pad to open and close without any interference with the A key. I had not noticed this earlier because I have been keeping the new one for "good" and doing all my knock-about work on the older one.
Glad to see that B. has recognised that there was a problem....... makes me feel a bit better. The problem that I have is so slight and on a clarinet that is otherwise so well put together and comfortable to play that I am able to ignore it........ while it may have a minute effect on the Bb note, I am quite happy with the quality of the note, and had I not heard so much about Bbs I would probably just bashed on saying to myself "well, that's the way things are on clarinets".
Have I been lucky? On a mass-produced instrument, I don't see it as luck, unless other "identical" clarinets have some incorrect assemby. And....... I haven't even cleaned out the speaker tube since I got it. Will do that tonight!...... promise.
I must point out that I am not and never will be a professional player...... just an enthusiastic huffer and puffer.......... and glad to find that there are so many other puffers out there with nothing better to so than post their views on this forum......... may it long continue........ H&P.
Post Edited (2008-11-29 11:23)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-26 15:33
David........ Hi........ I think that I have caused a misunderstanding here....... My reference to B was nothing more than an attempt to avoid spelling out the name B*ff*t........ silly, because I am in fact quite complimentary about the model that I play, and have recommended it to other players. There is a short history that led me to choose and stick with this model, especially since I have made some alterations to the tuning, (naughty naughty), ending up with what feels like a totally new instrument, now a pleasure to play, with all the notes in the chalumeau and clarion registers as near as makes no difference in tune- and I was planning to post a condensed version of this.
I will later look again at the serial no., but I don't remember a B in it. Was this B in the serial numbers of the more expensive Buffets?
Thank you again for your interest........ hope to be in touch....... H&P.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-11-26 15:47
Nope, straight number serial.
The B was the first initial of the model.
I ask as was wondering how much of that model was changed after the 300,000 serial # point. I know that the register key /tube location was changed, but not sure what else.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-11-26 18:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-26 19:49
"The only cure for this would be the removal of some metal from the underside of the A key"
Not so. Other options (I prefer 2 & 4):
1. Use thicker cork on throat A key. (This may unacceptably reduce venting of thoat A though
2. Use a thinner pad on the F# key hence increasing its venting, then bend the F# key cup down (with respect to its arm that links with the thumb ring) until its venting is back to where it was. This lowers the F# key cup. If necesssary, Bend thumb ring with respect to its linkage arm to restore ring height when closed.
3. Use a slightly smaller diameter pad on the F#, so that it does not need to lift so high for effectively the same venting. Then reduce the pad lift by bending as above, or increasing cork thickness on the F#. Bend thumb ring with respect to its linkage arm to restore ring height when closed.
4. Add cork to the throat A key, hence reducing its venting, then bend this key to restore that lost venting. Re-adjust throat G# linkage if necessary.
5. A combination of the above.
Post Edited (2008-11-26 19:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-11-27 18:24
Hi again, David............ My serial nos. are all way above the 300,000;- 4, 6 and700,000.
I have come across so much prejudice and gobbledegook about wood v plastic, that I was reluctant to specify the actual clarinet that I use, in case no-one would take me seriously, although the problem of the throat Bb is universal, and I was originally just throwing in a possible fault to be checked by anyone who felt down about their sound- since it would apply on any modern instrument.
Confession.......... I have settled down on a B12 clarinet, having been through a limited number of woodies, sometimes disastrously. I would still like to post a brief history of my escapades, that would explain why I am very unlikely to ever invest in a wooden instrument, and as I said in my last post, I have made some alterations to the B12 tuning, ending up with a clarinet that is so good that I cannot see why I should ever change. The alterations were so basic that anyone with a 3mm dia. file and a small piece of thin cardboard could replicate what I have done in an evening.
The results are so good that I am now doing the same to my recent models.
And Hi to Gordon in NZ………….Thank you for your considered reply…………. The suggestions that you make are certainly sensible and are possibly what a repairman would consider first……….. But if I decide to go ahead with my original plan, I feel that using a small rotary cutter or grindstone, I could hollow out the small amount of metal faster than I could follow your suggested actions, and I would not be disturbing the parts that in in good order as they stand. Re. action 4. The A key is so short and chunky that I can see no way that it could be bent, and it definitely is not a cork problem. As I have said, it is interesting to see that Buffet may have recognised the cramped conditions under the A key, and have extended the A key, giving enough space below it to eliminate the problem, and this makes me wonder whether I am not the only person who has noticed this.
Thank you all again……. And will keep in touch…….. H&P.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-11-27 21:35
Nothing wrong with carving away a bit of offensive metal on an instrument to improve it. :-) And I have done it myself on occasions to really chunky a keys, especially if they are probably made of pot metal that would probably break if bent.
Carving metal is one of the many reasons I have a dental micromotor unit that is probably my most used tool after screw drivers, pliers, feeler and burner.
"The A key is so short and chunky that I can see no way that it could be bent"
That depends on tools and technique.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-12-08 14:27
Attachment: B12s.jpg (217k)
Hi, all,
I will try an attachment photo of two B12s, to show the noticeable difference that Buffet have made to the A key, to give much more working space around the small G pad.
David, in particular....... I get the impression that you are interested in following such developments although this would hardly affect the acoustics as would the vent tube changes.
I have no idea at what serial number and/or date this change from shiny to matt occured, but I imagine that the A key would have been re-jigged at the same time, and it might just turn out that the same re-jigging took place on such instruments as the R13 at the same time (though I imagine they would have a totally different serial number system......... H&P
Will try attachment now...............
Post Edited (2008-12-08 14:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-08 15:29
The matt finish came in around 1996.
At around the same time the throat A key design (and side keys) was changed and had a soldered on touchpiece (like Yamaha and Selmer) instead of having a singular touchpiece and key arm (as on the more expensive Buffets) which meant the underside of the throat A key had the end of the key arm very tight against the G vent pad cup.
You can do no harm if you cut some of this away, provided you shape it well (thin it down, but retain the length of key arm soldered on the underside) you won't compromise the strength or rigidity of the throat A key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-12-09 13:05
Thanks, Chris........ will have another close look at the newer model, though you are quite right about the separate touch pieces. Have contacted Howarth..... no reply yet.
1996 seems a long time back...... the new B12s appear regularly in the second hand shops........ there is a whole new area for discussion around the built in obsolescence factor.
I wonder how many R13 players have two spares! at the going rate, I could buy about 12 of mine for one R13 ........... H&P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2008-12-09 13:06
Thanks, Chris........ will have another close look at the newer model, though you are quite right about the separate touch pieces. Have contacted Howarth..... no reply yet.
1996 seems a long time back...... the new B12s appear regularly in the second hand shops........ there is a whole new area for discussion around the built in obsolescence factor.
I wonder how many R13 players have two spares! at the going rate, I could buy about 12 of mine for one R13 ........... H&P
Sorry about the double post........ can someone delete it, please?
Post Edited (2008-12-09 13:16)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
