 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-07 16:52
I know, whole step, half step, whole step, half step, etc. etc.......
But does anyone have another way of learning or "thinking" these popular jazz scales?
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-12-07 17:00
You only need to learn three.
Start on low E, F and F#, run them full range.
Don't forget that as well as the w/h diminished scale used with diminished chords, it's good to practice h/w diminished scales to play over dominant chords.
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Author: clarinetmike
Date: 2008-12-08 05:57
One of my students figured this out:
play the first 4 notes of a minor scale: for example, E F# G A
then play the first 4 notes of a minor scale a tritone away from first note: for example: Bb C Db Eb
so you get = E F# G A Bb C Db Eb
Michael Dean
Southeast Missouri State University
www.clarinetmike.com
Post Edited (2008-12-08 06:02)
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2008-12-08 06:03
My improv profs always recommended breaking diminished scales in half to learn them. To do this, think of each diminished scale as two minor scales a tritone apart. In other words, the C diminished scale would be the first four notes of a C minor scale (C, D, Eb, F) and the first four notes of an F# minor scale (F#, G# A, B).
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Author: William
Date: 2008-12-08 22:09
Thanks to my early clarinet teachers (and a lot of constant practice) I can play all major, minor and augmented scale and argeggio scales at warp speed if necessary. I also studied, early on, the diminished arpeggios, but for some unknown (to me, anyway) the diminished scales were never formally presented during my studies. So, at a late age, I'm trying to get used to them--I know, "there are only three"--well enough to be able to use them and make them sound "easy".
For any of you who are not sure what these scales look like, here is a link to Dan Higgins "Jam #2". Check out measures 23 & 24:
http://www.lastudiomusicians.net/Jam%20Tune%202.pdf
[could it be that Jean Jean didn't realize that scales could be diminished as well as augmented?? LOL]
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-09 02:49
There's also the three "half- whole" scales to learn which function over an altered dominant chord...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-09 03:36
>> There's also the three "half- whole" scales to learn
>> which function over an altered dominant chord...
Luckily for whoever is trying to learn them the fingerings are the same as the diminished scales. Usually it's for b9 (i.e. altered would have the altered scale, unless you meant altered as in changed, not the actual altered chord).
Post Edited (2008-12-09 03:37)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-12-09 04:07
yes a dimished chord with a semi tone into each root. Also one with a half step after each root. It has you thinking as resolving half steps and thinking in chords.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-09 14:26
The "half-whole" scale can be played over a regular dominant chord or one with any number of alterations: b9, #9, and #11 (b5). It's just another way of thinking about the octatonic scales. For a diminished chord I think it's easier to play something like the locrian #2 scale (sixth mode of melodic minor). This scale lays well under the fingers and the ears.
Post Edited (2008-12-09 15:24)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-09 16:05
>> The "half-whole" scale can be played over a regular dominant chord
>> or one with any number of alterations: b9, #9, and #11 (b5).
Originally you said "altered". That's a specific term that means a 7 chord with all tensions i.e. 7b9#9#11b13. The half-whole scale has a natural 6, so it wouldn't be "correct". I put the quotes because maybe it's better to say that if you want to sound in a specific type of style then you should use the notes that would give this type of sound i.e. a scale with b13 for an altered chord (7alt) or else it will have a different sound. Using nat6 on 7alt chord will give a type of "wrong" sound which is no doubt ok to use if you want that type of wrong sound (which can be correct in the context).
The half-whole scale will work in the example you gave in the standard sense, but it just was a bit confusing I thought (not including all the specifics).
BTW, when I used to play mostly this type of music (i.e. jazz that is based on harmony and chord progressions) I also practiced scales. But I realized that it didn't work because scales don't really have melodic ideas or harmonic ideas. It was mostly chords and melodies that worked better. Improvising "too scaley" will usually not sound melodic and will be boring, unless someone is using specific ideas that are built on something that sounds "scaley" (I've only ever heard a few examples of this).
I'm not saying anyone was suggesting to play this way, but I think it can be accidently implied when talking about using certain scales with certain chords.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-09 20:42
Clarinbass,
I grew up calling the chord that your write about a "fully-altered dominant." The term altered dominant is something that I use for a chord with any number of alterations- sorry for the confusion, chord theory can be tedious.
I agree with you about improvising becoming to "scaley" as you say. However, for me it was much easier to get the sound of a fully altered dominant chord under my hands/ears by learning it as the 7th mode of melodic minor. I would also argue that scales do have melodic implications in that each note of the scale will have its own tendency to resolve or remain constant with the following chord.
Nevertheless, scales are only one of several ways to approach chord changes, and one certainly does run a risk of sounding boring if they only improvise around scales.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-12-09 21:36
I'm with Tom on this. For learning the scales think of the dim 7th chord with semi tones leading into the chord tones. It goes without saying you should be able to sing or hum the scale.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-12-09 23:13
I know it is perhaps 'semantics' but I do not think of an altered dominant as a chord with a b13. I think what we natural hear is the #5...that is we have been trained by what we listen to to hear it this way. Maybe if we all listened to Wayne Shorter all the time we would start to hear these types of harmonies. I like too use what we used to call the Michael Brecker scale for Alt 7 chords. I think it is now commonly referred to as the dim/whole tone scale (w-h-w-h-w-w-w or tonic-b9-#9-#4-+5-dom 7-tonic). It's a beautiful scale that is a must for anyone interested playing modern jazz. Another great way to think of this harmony was presented to me in Mark Levine's Jazz theory book. The scale appears as the VII mode of melodic major scale. I like to use: the 1st mode for i mM7 chords, the 3rd mode for half dim chords, and the 7th as discussed above. There are also uses for the other four modes but I don't play modern harmony enough to spend the time thinking about them.
I was always taught in jazz theory books that W-H is for dim chords and H-W is for dom b9 chords (3rd, 5th, 7th, b9) however if you have ever worked in the omni book, Charlie Parker used W-H on b9 chords all time and that's the way I tend to hear them. I would suggest that you can legitimately use both for either.
Despite the obvious fact that I'm 'into' scales I must say that I do agree that it should never be the center of your improv. I do think that with the right approach, scale study can become the very thing that frees you from thinking when you improvise. Being able to play melodically should be the goal of improvisation. You want to create melodies that create tension and have the instinct and skill to answer the tensions that you create with the perfect answer...to phrase. That being said, I think that very few players have ever been able to do this at a high level without a good deal of scale study. I also know that there are a lot of players much better than I that know a lot less about scale harmony than I do! What does this tell me? Probably that they have spent a lot more time doing it than thinking about it.
Peace
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